Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[Panzer]

 

It absolutely does infalidate army rules in the index.  

Source?

 

As what you are suggesting would mean that you cannot play Death Guard, Thousand Sons or Only Daemon armies anymore.

 

Why would it mean that?

All GW ever told us is that if we use the Codex we can use the Index Datasheets that aren't in the Codex. Nothing else. Just Datasheets.

On the other hand they never said we can't use the Index. For Death Guard and TSons you obviously use the Index for now.

Also why the hell should Daemons not be useable anymore? They aren't part of the CSM Codex so you obviously keep using the Index rules.

[Khornestar]

If that blurb is true, then I guess I was wrong. Not the end of the world, but not being able to take cult units as troops is a bad decision. Doing so didn't break the game in any way. Oh well, :cuss CP and :cuss objective secured. I'm gonna rain Berzerkers in pods and slaughter the table.

[Goreshed]

@Juggernut - I fail to see why that is not the first and only option always when one plays with World Eaters? Or am I missing something?

[Khornestar]

Goreshed gets it, man. :P

[Sception]

eh, those pods are pretty pricey.  Don't have a lot of points for zerks left after taking multiples of them.

[Khornestar]

Well, I plan on playing games ~130 power points to utilize those lists. Otherwise, I would probably just take the Kharybdis and Rhinos.

[Commissar K.]

 

All GW ever told us is that if we use the Codex we can use the Index Datasheets that aren't in the Codex. Nothing else. Just Datasheets.

On the other hand they never said we can't use the Index. For Death Guard and TSons you obviously use the Index for now.

Also why the hell should Daemons not be useable anymore? They aren't part of the CSM Codex so you obviously keep using the Index rules.

 

Which is why I asked for the Source, as Malisteen said it invalidated army rules.

 

This is me saying that the Index is not invalidated, the army options not being invalidated and the Datasheets in the Index still being relevant unless they where what I call 'updated by the Codex'.

 

I agree with you that you use the Index for Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Daemons, World Eaters and Emperors Children if you want to. As there is nothing within this Codex stating you cannot do so. 

[Aothaine]

GW did state that if there are updated rules for the keyword you are playing then you should use those rules. EC, BL, WE and Renegades are in the CSM dex and you should use the CSM dex for those options. You can continue to use the data sheets for models GW does not have in their current range from the index and use the updated points costs from the CSM dex for those units. 

 

If you are running Death Guard/Thousand Sons, they are not in the CSM dex and you would continue to only use the index and index points. 

 

The example was on the community page when they were talking about Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves right around the Space Marine Codex release.

[Panzer]

You can continue to use the data sheets for models GW does not have in their current range from the index and use the updated points costs from the CSM dex for those units. 

 

That's not what they said. That's just the reason people are assuming GW has for leaving Datasheets out.

What they said is to use Datasheets from the Index if they didn't make it into the Codex. Nothing about models or whatever.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

 

I'm honestly not overly worried about getting Noise Marines as troops or not for now. Cultists are cheap enough to fill the troop slots and are worth taking anyway. I can wait with troop Noise Marines until we get our own Codex whenever that may happen.

 

I don't own even a single cultist. Having a lot of cultists isn't exactly fluffy for EC, what with us cooking them down to make "stimulants".  

 

 

In fact EC army are depicted with lot of Cultist like any other legion warband (for exemple in the Talon of Horus book). EC love to be adored (by cultist), love (Cultist) scream of pain/pleasure (hard to tell the difference with Slaanesh) Cultist and should love make combats drugs with Cultist fluids when under different emotions (excitement of battle, fear, pride of killing a Terminator with one lucky shoot, guilt of desserter) rather than the only I'm-scared-coz-in-some-ship-with-strange-pink-spacemarines. 

Think diversity. Don't let yourself prisonner of a single saviour. 

[Commissar K.]

GW did state that if there are updated rules for the keyword you are playing then you should use those rules. EC, BL, WE and Renegades are in the CSM dex and you should use the CSM dex for those options. You can continue to use the data sheets for models GW does not have in their current range from the index and use the updated points costs from the CSM dex for those units. 

 

If you are running Death Guard/Thousand Sons, they are not in the CSM dex and you would continue to only use the index and index points. 

 

The example was on the community page when they were talking about Blood Angels/Dark Angels/Space Wolves right around the Space Marine Codex release.

I agree with you but do we also have the confirmation on points?

 

What I am asking basically is that Death Guard still have a 20 point Power Fist then? Or did that go to 12? If it's 20 it would make things more confusing I believe

Edited August 11, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Cryptix]

Use codex point costs with index rules.

[Bat33.1]

 

I think that all of the cults will have their own codices eventually. This is the book if you want to have a crazy blender army. It might not look as pretty but it has a ton of teeth. I really like it and don't mind taking the cult units as elites. 

I don't think that will be the case. What I do see with this Codex is that is specifically states that you need more 40K rules for this and that this is a supplement. A supplement that seems to be designed for fans of Lore and Matched play really. 

 

The Codex does not invalidate the use of Cult Units as Troops as per Army rules found in the Index. If GW wants to invalidate Index Datasheet and army options I wouldn't mind but I would like to know where they exactly said as such. 

 

In many ways this Codex is just an update to this edition but both Codex and Index are still very much part of this whole edition. Basically this Codex has a few restrictions but it does not state the Index Army options are now not available... Unless Im missing some direct statement from GW on this.

 

Jes Bickham said you can still use the index but obviously you don't gain detachment bonuses, Obsec, etc but didn't state which points cost you would use. They talked about tweaking points between index and codex as the index was complete and off to print around Christmas so they have had more time to look at things as they've gone back.

[Azekai]

Use codex point costs with index rules.

I think that is pretty clearly why they divorced point costs from datasheets. Points values aren't set in stone anymore.

[Aothaine]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

 

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

 

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

 

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

[Bat33.1]

Aothaine - good find :) but there are some oddball units, juggerlords, disc etc for keeping your legion rules and bonuses. Juggerlords are keyword cavalry and legion rules can only be used by infantry (and transports isn't it?) - taking a disc has the same issue as it changes the keyword.

[Commissar K.]

 

 

I think that all of the cults will have their own codices eventually. This is the book if you want to have a crazy blender army. It might not look as pretty but it has a ton of teeth. I really like it and don't mind taking the cult units as elites. 

I don't think that will be the case. What I do see with this Codex is that is specifically states that you need more 40K rules for this and that this is a supplement. A supplement that seems to be designed for fans of Lore and Matched play really. 

 

The Codex does not invalidate the use of Cult Units as Troops as per Army rules found in the Index. If GW wants to invalidate Index Datasheet and army options I wouldn't mind but I would like to know where they exactly said as such. 

 

In many ways this Codex is just an update to this edition but both Codex and Index are still very much part of this whole edition. Basically this Codex has a few restrictions but it does not state the Index Army options are now not available... Unless Im missing some direct statement from GW on this.

 

Jes Bickham said you can still use the index but obviously you don't gain detachment bonuses, Obsec, etc but didn't state which points cost you would use. They talked about tweaking points between index and codex as the index was complete and off to print around Christmas so they have had more time to look at things as they've gone back.

 

There is no "obvious" thing, that is the point Ive made since the Index. So far, as posted above and not contradicted by the Codex I have here there is nothing preventing us from mixing up Index and Chaos options, unless there is something specifically stating it cannot be done. Such as is the case for DG and TS but not for the others.

 

But to come back it it, Army rules as covered in the Index are not detachment bonuses. I see why some costs are changed. As before, Malisteen stated armies from the Index have become invalidated while there is no such confirmation from GW. 

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 

 

There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?

While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

 

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

 

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.

 

Thanks! 

 

Aothaine - good find  but there are some oddball units, juggerlords, disc etc for keeping your legion rules and bonuses. Juggerlords are keyword cavalry and legion rules can only be used by infantry (and transports isn't it?) - taking a disc has the same issue as it changes the keyword.

I wouldn't call it oddball. I agree that Legion Traits only apply to Infantry, Bikers and Helbrute, because the Codex says so. However this does not mean that your Legion Detachment cannot be filled with Legion specific other units, such as Vechicles, Cavalry, Beasts etc. While they do not benifit directly from traits for some units, you can still include such units.

 

The only relevant issue with the Disc is that Codex entries cannot change their Legion to Thousand Sons, because the Codex specifically says so on page 116. However you can go full Tzeentch and be a Renegade army or have that Disc Sorcerer be part of your Black Legion army.

 

Point being is that Thousand Sons and Death Guard Legion Traits will be covered in their own Codex. There are also no Artefacts for them but there are Nurgle and Tzeentch artefacts etc.

 

Cheers,

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Guys, can we stop this talk about EC/WE troops ? Clearly we need, and we will have a FAQ about this.

 

If someone may put me in the right direction so I can ask this question at GW, and so we can all do it in order to have a proper and official answer to this problem. I would like to think about my V8 EC army but i won't make plan until I know for sure GW isn't gonna forbid Noise Marine as troop.

 

Remember the "undersize unit rules". They change the whole rule to avoid people using it a way GW didnt want too. 

So if GW dont want us using NM as troop they will change the Index rules too. Any debate at this point is useless imho. 

[Archaeinox]

I love how in the studio chat on twitch yesterday they thought people were asking about chaos characters not being in the codex instead of how people were asking about losing their aura when going to Cavalry.

[Commissar K.]

Hey feel free to ask, I can assure you I will do the same.

The prime reason why Im not against any discussion might be because I missed something. I waited for the Codex to arrive to make another statement on this and with it being here I can't find the information that would not allow us to use X Army rules with this Codex. 

There are some restrictions in the Codex but using Index Army rules is just not one that is mentioned as not being possible. Remember to apply for the Index Army rules all one really has to do is the same one wants to do for Legion Traits aswell so it REALLY isn't unthinkable that simple awnser to the question is: "Yes you can use Index army rules in conjunction with the Codex".

In the end the difference is extremely minimal also, we can go for the Heavier Elite Detachment route and then there is no "problem" whatsoever.

[Commissar K.]

I love how in the studio chat on twitch yesterday they thought people were asking about chaos characters not being in the codex instead of how people were asking about losing their aura when going to Cavalry.

Heh yeah. To be 100% honest with you though I don't like how GW rushes out their new material for 40K. I also do not get why they act like the compagny is on fire.

 

Why do I say this? Well, the Content index of Codex Chaos Space Marines isn't correct for one, which just feels like a sloppy rushjob. Same with some abilities that are now bound to be Erratad again. To me it seems like the design team is now spending equal ammount in errata as they do for creating the Codex, it's a bit annoying. 

[Sception]

These is definitely a huge rush to get books out for 8th, and it does show rather painfully.  I'm hoping the pace will slow down a bit once all the old factions have codeces, but we'll see.  Confusing and contradictory rules are getting errata in the mean time, but this can't be good for balance or play testing.

[Panzer]

Well it's a little bit rough during the transition but I'm sure it will smooth out once every faction has their Codex.

[Commissar K.]

These is definitely a huge rush to get books out for 8th, and it does show rather painfully.  I'm hoping the pace will slow down a bit once all the old factions have codeces, but we'll see.  Confusing and contradictory rules are getting errata in the mean time, but this can't be good for balance or play testing.

We certainly agree on that. To be honest though I think that currently there isn't too much playtesting done for the content to come.

In many cases I also feel that costs are changed because of the simple gut feeling and current cross faction comparison. It's something you do at the end of the design and I think the Indexes slipped the cross faction comparison balance.

 

Now that is done though and some things have been made cheaper to significantly cheaper the balance is decent. But with decent balance a game functions quite well. One of my prime issues with CSM now is more that we somehow get excluded from upgrades/updates. It really can't be that hard for GW to produce a Chaotified sprue part for a Droppod or alternative Land Raider yet somehow that isn't created for years now.

[1000 Sons]

Will probably just paste a few pages over top their index entries from the new codex and just buy the card deck of stratagem and spell cards. The space marine book has errata on the first week. Hopefully their digital codex will work for more then just apple and I will get those.