How will you equip Reivers?

[SkimaskMohawk]

So a lot of people I feel don't quite grasp how terrain works. Every terrain object needs to be scaled, moved across, and descended in 40k now. A 1" tall barricade will knock 2" off of movement to go through; a 6" tall bastion costs effectively 7" to get down the other side of the lip. Grapnels ignore the scaling and descending, effectively allowing you to move like Fly when it comes to terrain.

 

Obviously the terrain situation has a lot to do with the value, as does Chapter Tactics and Stratagems available 

[evilmittens]

 

 

 

How would they work with Raven Guard. Ie, Raven Guard Reivers. I am not a player...yet. I am thinking Raven Guard, Knife, bolt pistol, and grav chutes. Thinking harassment behind the lines unit.

That would remove the CT, which isn't ideal. I'd do the carbine for harassment after dropping in with the grav chute. Alternatively if you play with some tall buildings or ruins, the grapnel would be awesome for keeping them in cover, at range, and free of any charge threats. Then, when the time is right, hop down and toss a nade in support of a melee unit.

 

I should have prefaced with saying...uber newb on game side.  Never played a game.  I liked the idea of a specialist attack behind enemy lines unit combined with a chapter of infiltration specialists...so...removing CT?  

 

So you thing a harassment unit, with carbine instead of bolt pistol/knife.  

 

 

No worries. My thinking was that the Raven Guard gain that beautiful Chapter Tactic that makes them harder to hit outside of 12'', but that's the exact range for the pistols. So if you dropped them in close to the enemy to hit them, then you've lost a key piece of the RG concept, and since you can't drop closer than 9'', making that charge is unlikely. You'll have a chance to fire the pistols and then stand around for a bit while the enemy does whatever they want in response.

 

You might get lucky with board positioning and can land in some cover or behind some line of sight blocking terrain - the cover would keep you around against some shooting and the terrain might give you the option to set up for a second turn rush. In those cases you might get a chance to stick around longer than a turn but the unit will basically be sitting around the first time they drop in. Then they could move out, shoot at something with the pistols, and charge it. Could result in a change to your opponent's plan, which I guess is disruption, but I imagine you were looking for an immediate disruptive impact. Plus, any army can do that, so it's not that specific to Raven Guard. 

 

Which is why I figured the carbines would be better. They have double the range and shots of the pistols, so you can drop in far enough away to still gain the Chapter Tactic bonus while putting in a boatload more firepower on a soft target. They aren't the only unit you'll want dropping in at that time as they work best supporting another unit with a more focused role. Reivers are mobile, resilient, put out a great amount of bolter fire, and can throw out a decent amount of melee attacks, but their abilities like terror troops and the shock grenade are much better when supporting a true assault unit (or something that can pin them down for a turn in the fight phase with the intent of falling back the following turn, like Inceptors).

 

So I would make sure they have a unit like that either dropping with them or forward deployed on the flank with the stratagem. 

 

Perfect, that's what I needed. Awesome. Ill do carbines.  My thought was to drop them in behind an infantry unit, or mess with a HQ unit.  Supporting a assault unit with them, like you said a forward deployed unit. So, I will do carbines, which means no knives iirc. and grav chutes, and whatever nades I can carry. Thanks for the help! 

Edited August 16, 2017 by evilmittens

[Prot]

Aren't the carbines essentially Bolter equivalent?

 

The pistols are -1 and you get bonus attacks from the knives. I almost feel like aside from the deepstrike that Bolter scouts would do a decent job at a fraction of the cost?

[Hopper21]

Aren't the carbines essentially Bolter equivalent?

 

The pistols are -1 and you get bonus attacks from the knives. I almost feel like aside from the deepstrike that Bolter scouts would do a decent job at a fraction of the cost?

Assault 2 so you can advance and fire with -1 to hit. Don't forget if your in range you can fire both weapon systems.

 

You also get the stun grenades.

 

I run 10 with carbines and grapel lainchers. I normally go hunting dug in heavy support units backfield. I love them!

[Lemondish]

Aren't the carbines essentially Bolter equivalent?

 

The pistols are -1 and you get bonus attacks from the knives. I almost feel like aside from the deepstrike that Bolter scouts would do a decent job at a fraction of the cost?

I feel like bolter scouts aren't as resilient, aren't as mobile, do not have the same threat range, and do not have any of the support abilities that Reivers bring. So there's a reason they're cheaper, but you're right that a bolter scout squad could get deep and disrupt things if all you want is on demand bolter fire close up.

 

And you're also spot on that there's value with a one shot -1 AP pistol at 12", but you're not trading the pistol for the carbines - you're trading a single melee attack instead. This unit is baseline as effective in melee as an assault marine squad without the knife already, so there's tons of value from the extra range and ability to fire while advancing - all without giving up the option to use the pistol if you need/want to. And statistically 2 shots at AP 0 are better than 1 shot at AP -1.

 

I feel this is especially true for RG, since it gives you offensive ranged options while taking advantage of the CT, something that was part of the original question. I'd think of that as more of a bonus, though, rather than the primary reason. The pistol only doesn't give you that option.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Lemondish

[Stoic Raptor]

 

Don't forget if your in range you can fire both weapon systems.

 

Not sure what you mean, there.  You're not suggesting that they can shoot the carbines and the pistols, surely.  Could you clarify?

[evilmittens]

Can I ask a few more newb questions.  My SGT, I have nades, Knife and Carbine.  I assume, I can put on the little grapnel pouch on his back and grav chutes. I assume that means I can choose at the beginning of the game which item I want to use.  Ie, start game with gravs or use grapnels whole game.  Anyways, I guess my core question is, when a model has a part attached, you can use it...if I leave off grapnel off one model, he cant use grapnels while rest of squad can?  I feel stupid lol, sorry...I want the model to look cool, like I want, but also useful.

[Blindhamster]

You buy the upgrade you want for the unit, so if you want grapnels, you pay for the squad, If you want grav you pay for the squad. If you don't model it, it means they aren't WYSIWYG. But that won't matter to a lot of people.

[Hopper21]

 

 

Don't forget if your in range you can fire both weapon systems.

Not sure what you mean, there. You're not suggesting that they can shoot the carbines and the pistols, surely. Could you clarify?

Yea so if your bolt pistols are in range you can shoot your bolt pistols and carbines in the same shooting phase.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

Is there something that lets them do this? Because the pistol rules from the main rulebook say "Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons. Choose which it will fire (Pistols or non- Pistols) before making hit rolls."

[Hopper21]

Is there something that lets them do this? Because the pistol rules from the main rulebook say "Each time a model equipped with both a Pistol and another type of ranged weapon (e.g. a Pistol and a Rapid Fire weapon) shoots, it can either shoot with its Pistol(s) or with all of its other weapons. Choose which it will fire (Pistols or non- Pistols) before making hit rolls."

Nope your totally right and ignore everything I've said! Everyday is a school day!

 

I just read the page before that said a model can shoot all listed weapons and didn't see the pistol bit.

 

Apologies

[Stoic Raptor]

That's exactly why I asked.

[Lemondish]

Can I ask a few more newb questions.  My SGT, I have nades, Knife and Carbine.  I assume, I can put on the little grapnel pouch on his back and grav chutes. I assume that means I can choose at the beginning of the game which item I want to use.  Ie, start game with gravs or use grapnels whole game.  Anyways, I guess my core question is, when a model has a part attached, you can use it...if I leave off grapnel off one model, he cant use grapnels while rest of squad can?  I feel stupid lol, sorry...I want the model to look cool, like I want, but also useful.

 

As mentioned, the upgrade applies to the whole unit. You can't really mix and match, it's either all or nothing for those two. You can get both, if you're inclined to do so, as well. 

 

For the SGT, the Codex entry didn't originally support that build (the knife and the Carbine), but the FAQ (found here) corrects that with the line "The Reiver Sergeant may replace either his bolt carbine or heavy bolt pistol with a combat knife". 

 

There's a concept in 40k borrowed from computer development called WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get), and there's various levels of adherence to it throughout the hobby. It's pretty self explanatory, but it means that if a model physically does not have an item (you can't see it), then it doesn't have access to its rules (you don't get it). Most friendly players do not hold true to it as folks tend to be looking for fun matchups and trying new things is fun! Discuss it with your opponent before the match and everything should be fine. Most players will actually encourage proxies for trying new things. Just make sure its clear and consistent. For tournaments, it's up to the organizer, but they tend to be pretty strict with WYSIWYG. If you say your model has something, it should show it.

 

So in summary, with WYSIWYG, the Reivers in the squad each need to have a grapnel on the model if you want the unit to use the grapnel. If your opponent doesn't care, then all your dudes have it for purposes of the rules, and as long as you're clear and consistent with that, you won't run into any issues. 

 

You could also magnetize to give you options whenever, but that's a whole other rabbit hole. 

Edited August 17, 2017 by Lemondish

[Race Bannon]

Man, outside of a tournament, anyone with an issue about WYSIWYG isn't having fun playing the game.

 

I'm gonna own 5 shooty and 5 stabby.  All with the wings though because ... cool.

[Lemondish]

Man, outside of a tournament, anyone with an issue about WYSIWYG isn't having fun playing the game.

 

I'm gonna own 5 shooty and 5 stabby. All with the wings though because ... cool.

You're absolutely right, though there are levels of proxying. From "these Reivers have grav chutes (but they aren't modeled)", to "this Chimera is a Leman Russ" to my personal favourite I encountered: "this beer bottle is a drop pod".

 

I think I'll end up having some stabby, just because of the easy to build ones that I use for paint practice.

[Blindhamster]

Man, outside of a tournament, anyone with an issue about WYSIWYG isn't having fun playing the game.

 

I'm gonna own 5 shooty and 5 stabby. All with the wings though because ... cool.

I have plenty of fun playing WYSIWYG

[Lemondish]

 

Man, outside of a tournament, anyone with an issue about WYSIWYG isn't having fun playing the game.

 

I'm gonna own 5 shooty and 5 stabby. All with the wings though because ... cool.

I have plenty of fun playing WYSIWYG

Do you not have fun playing if the opponent isn't adhering to it?

[Race Bannon]

Exactly.  I WYSIWYG because I'm OCD like that.  But if someone walks up and says, "This beer bottle is a drop pod", then I'll be like, "share with the rest of the class" :lol:

[Blindhamster]

i'll have less fun if my opponents army is full of proxied stuff, yes. I find it a pain to have to remember a bunch of stuff I cannot just tell from the models.

I wont say no to the game though :P

[Lemondish]

Exactly.  I WYSIWYG because I'm OCD like that.  But if someone walks up and says, "This beer bottle is a drop pod", then I'll be like, "share with the rest of the class"

 

 

i'll have less fun if my opponents army is full of proxied stuff, yes. I find it a pain to have to remember a bunch of stuff I cannot just tell from the models.

 

I wont say no to the game though

 

Yep, all good reasons to prefer WYSIWYG, but you guys are definitely not examples of those who make it unfun when its heavily urged in friendly games. 

 

I think I would probably prefer it myself, if I was to really think about it. Hamster is absolutely right - always better to be able to look at the models you're lining up against and know what they do. 

 

But beer bottle drop pods are awesome.

[Blindhamster]

Maybe we should make it a hobby challenge for this forum?? Beer/soda bottle drop pod challenge!

[Stoic Raptor]

It's what we used to do in Battletech.  I recall Union and Overlod class dropships that were made out of Styrofoam balls or eggs found at craft stores.  I think we once used a 2 or 3 liter soda bottle too.

[evilmittens]

You buy the upgrade you want for the unit, so if you want grapnels, you pay for the squad, If you want grav you pay for the squad. If you don't model it, it means they aren't WYSIWYG. But that won't matter to a lot of people.

Got it, so basically model what  you like for the most part (i get the rules restrict some of that) , and during the start of game you "buy" what you are using whatever.  Cool thanks.   You guys rock

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I think if at least some effort and courtesy was made, it would be fine even if someone was not WYSIWYG. I don't think people frown upon not being WYSIWYG just to be a snob or anything, it's usually because the "offender" is either rude about it or is clearly not even making an effort.

 

An army that is confusing, not WYSIWYG, that you can't even remember what each gun is and have to ask every phase? Not fun.

 

An army that is not WYSIWYG, but you can still tell what they are anyway? Such as all meltaguns have red weapons or red bases, all plasma guns have blue weapons or blue bases or no helmet or bandaged faces? That's totally fine, it's no different from actual WYSIWYG that way.

 

WYSIWYG was never meant to be a punishment or to be some super fluffy thing, it was meant to ensure players were good sportsmen and had courtesy for their opponents. It's not your opponent's job to recognize your non-standard wargear, and it's borderline cheating to try to gain an advantage via confusion and misleading the opponent when it comes to information that you must give, like non-hidden wargear.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Blindhamster]

I think if at least some effort and courtesy was made, it would be fine even if someone was not WYSIWYG. I don't think people frown upon not being WYSIWYG just to be a snob or anything, it's usually because the "offender" is either rude about it or is clearly not even making an effort.

 

An army that is confusing, not WYSIWYG, that you can't even remember what each gun is and have to ask every phase? Not fun.

 

An army that is not WYSIWYG, but you can still tell what they are anyway? Such as all meltaguns have red weapons or red bases, all plasma guns have blue weapons or blue bases or no helmet or bandaged faces? That's totally fine, it's no different from actual WYSIWYG that way.

 

WYSIWYG was never meant to be a punishment or to be some super fluffy thing, it was meant to ensure players were good sportsmen and had courtesy for their opponents. It's not your opponent's job to recognize your non-standard wargear, and it's borderline cheating to try to gain an advantage via confusion and misleading the opponent when it comes to information that you must give, like non-hidden wargear.

 

perfectly sums it up.

 

If you modelled flamers on all your tac squads, and said all the flamers in your tac squads are actually melta guns? fine - easy to remember!

 

If you modelled flamers on your 4 tactical squads, and one is a melta gun, one is a plasma gun, one is a grav gun and one is a standard bolter? Nah. Thats just downright annoying (unless you maybe do stuff like painting the base or put stickers on the base rim with weapon name on it or something!)

 

My OCD means I only use models as the kind of weapons they are lol, rare exception may be if models dont exist yet (I used my primaris marines as stalker bolt rifles in a recent game, the kit wasnt out yet).

Edited August 17, 2017 by Blindhamster