Fighting Forgeworld... Any ideas for help?

[shay4brains]

Hello Brothers,

 

Recently I had the (mis?)fortune of attending a small tournament here in Seattle.  4 players showed up ( Looks like 2 others bailed )

 

I only had two half games of 8th edition under my belt, so I'm still trying to 1) Get into an 8th edition mindset, and 2)  Learn 8th edition.  I didn't much care about winning or losing, just wanted to get some experience.

 

I never got to play the 4th player ( he left after two games )

 

My first game was against a guy with a Brass Scorpion, Las/HB Land Raider ( with berskers, warlod and warpsmith inside ) and two mauler fiends.  I spent most of the game pouring firepower into the Land Raider and only did 3 wounds to it.  Lesson learned: Tough to crack!  I nearly killed a mauler fiend, but my army performed poorly plus I made some poor decisions.  ( My Nephilim died to the Brass Scorpion flamer pistols, my mistake and misunderstanding of how it works )  Not the most fun game, but I did learn the difference between T7 and T8 is bigger than I'd thought!

 

The other game was against an ork player with two units of 30 boyz, and two giant squiggoths, with one with a weirdboy with jump and tankbusters, and the other with the warlord with 19 boyz.  I was able to kill a unit of boyz down to its leader and do a few wounds on one squiggoth.  It was a pretty unfun and uninteresting game.

 

It seems to me that those Forgeworld units were very undercosted, and led to pretty boring games.  Is there much we as Dark Angels have to combat such things?

 

I think another issue was the terrain, it was sparse and quite short which meant that maneuvering didn't mean much and super heavies up the middle was the way to go.  That at least is an addressable issue.

 

Thanks in advance for anyone with some words of wisdom!

 

And just in case, I was running something like this:

 

Azrael

Primaris Lieutenant

Four 6 man tacticals with flamers and sgts with heavy flamers

Five man assault squad

Whirlwind with S7 missiles and HK

Razorback with HK and twin assault cannons

Razorback with HK and twin Heavy bolter

Five man scout with sniper rifles and Heavy Bolter

Five man scout with bolters

Venerable dread with CC and Assault Canon

Dreadnought with two twin linked autocannons

Vindicare Assassin

Nephilim Jetfighter

Culexus Assassin

 

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Seems to me you need more Lascannons or equivalent.

That means Lascannons on Nephilim if you decide to keep it, Lascannons on Vendors. dread.

Replace assault squad and all those Hk missiles with Lascannon Development squad.. Etc. Doesn't really matter how you do it but you need the strength of Lascannons (or equivalent) and the D6 wounds. Right now your army is totally balanced for dealing with infantry and the occasional tank and that's why FW stuff is giving you problems.

Good luck!

[sneakybamsen]

Lucifer has the main issue pointed out. You lack firepower against heavy targets.

 

Nephilim jetfighter is not a very strong choice, neither is an assault squad. For competitive usage, you'd probably want to go 5 man marine squads or flesh them out to 10 (min squads seem to be better though) and give them a heavy weapon (such as a lascannon), or plasma. Flamers are good for killing hordes to a certain degree, but the game as it is (and as you felt) is mainly about big things right now with most armies.

 

Also I would stick the dual autocannons on the venerable instead of the regular dread. Simply makes better use of the points paid for the guns. It's slightly more durable and hits better. Also I'd let the heavy bolter scout have a sniper instead. Heavy bolters are underachieving unless you can mass them. Haven't tried whirlwinds yet, but they don't seem to be too good, unfortunately.

 

All of the above of course depends on how mean you want your list to be. More effective lists might not be more fun.

 

Regards

[aura_enchanted]

you need more heavy weapons, and in this case it might have been wise to fight fire with fire. the deimos laser destroyer costs about as much as a vindicator box anyway before shipping taxes and so your going to get a solid relatively inexpensive to field anti tank cannon, park it on a hill, cripple every predator and leman russ in breathing distance.

 

this would have at least helps against the GBS as if memory serves its effective range is god awful so you get to sit there and dump 2 rounds of 2 shots that will do heavy damage if they get past his saves into the raider.

 

as for the squiggoth i havent had a chance to buy the index imperial armor xenos yet. so i dont know what it might be best handled by. but assuming its got a similar issue of being bad at shooting and good in melee or at least short distance shooting you could probably use that in tandem with other weapons to cripple the behemoth

[dtse]

Forgeworld is definitely NOT under costed. In fact the majority of forgeworld is OVER costed and that's why most people don't use a lot of it (also over costed in terms of price to buy haha). So these people are paying a premium of points for single models. My mastodon is 860 points. That's almost half the army. And definitely killable. But as others have pointed out you literally have no weapons equipped to deal with heavy vehicles. And not even just forgeworld. 1 knight would give you significant problems with your current list and that's not forgeworld. My list of Razorbacks would give you problems and that's just toughness 7 tanks. You definitely need to balance a bit better towards dealing with vehicles. And that involves high strength multi damage weapons

[aura_enchanted]

Forgeworld is definitely NOT under costed. In fact the majority of forgeworld is OVER costed and that's why most people don't use a lot of it (also over costed in terms of price to buy haha). So these people are paying a premium of points for single models. My mastodon is 860 points. That's almost half the army. And definitely killable. But as others have pointed out you literally have no weapons equipped to deal with heavy vehicles. And not even just forgeworld. 1 knight would give you significant problems with your current list and that's not forgeworld. My list of Razorbacks would give you problems and that's just toughness 7 tanks. You definitely need to balance a bit better towards dealing with vehicles. And that involves high strength multi damage weapons

yea my land raider excelsior would have a field day, sort of sitting back, leaning in a lawn chair. tossing lascannons and buffs around everywhere as it went, soaking up crazy amounts of fire because a 16 wound model with an invul save can survive being impacted by hulls of starships falling from space on top of them 

[Frater Cornelius]

This isn't a FW balancing thread. This is about killing FW units. Well, all been said. Las Cannon, Las Cannons and maybe a few more Lascannons. Around 3 TLC Razors are a good start and as many HK missiles as you can get. Bolter Scouts with a Missile are also an option. Or stick TLC on your Dread.

 

May I also recommend the Repulsor with Hellblasters inside. I had the pleasure of moping up several big FW models with them. They need re-rolls though, but you have those. If you do not run Primaris, take a regular Lieutenant from C:SM (it is legal) and save 10pts.

 

I have also heard that DWK inside a LR are very solid and both offer solid anti-heavy stuff at various ranges.

[Brother dean]

As everyone has said, "You brought a knife to a gunfight..."

At minimum some of those tac squads need meltas.  I realize that you are tooled for horde but as you found out, even one tank in a horde can throw a wrench into that plan.  Dont be afraid to bring full squads of tac with both a special and heavy.  The new 8th rules allowing split fire all the time to everything and the move and shoot heavies at -1 means you are not wasting that heavy shot anymore.

[Lion El Jason]

I'm going to disagree.  You don't have enough weapons to deal with armour but...

 

In 8th I have zero respect for single shot, anti-tank heavy weapons.  Just don't bother.  Get similar rersults with Str5+ -1 save weapons with lots of shots.  
Anti armour weapons are bad, they cost too much when your anti infantry wound on 5+ and inflict a save modifier, you can easily manage with them (I do) you just need more.

 

The odd Melta Gun or similar is useful, powerfists (And similar) are still good too, its just lascannon, Missile Launchers and multi meltas, 8th has made them obsolete IMO.

 

Also DW Knights pretty much still solve everything.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Lion El Jason

[Extropian]

Lascannons obsolete in 8th?

 

That might literally be the first time i have seen that opinion, even online. Kudos for originality at least!

[dtse]

Yea man. Lascannons is probably THE BEST weapon in 8th except for maybe the twin assault cannon. There's a reason lists spam lascannons these days and every one subs lascannons onto their tanks when able.

[Frater Cornelius]

That anti-LC sentiment has merit. The LC, while good on paper, has one major disadvantage. Variance. Variance is the squared deviation from the average, aka the mean. First off, when calculating the performance of a weapon in terms of averages, it is very inacurate. You can say that 2 LC will hit out of 3 on a 3+, but that is wrong. The probability of that happening is only 4/9 (0.444444444). To truly find the optimum, you need to use the binomial distribution. This is where you can see the full effect of variance.

The issue is that if you shoot an infinite about of LC, an average of 2/3 will hit. However, in a game where a LC will shoot an average of 2 times, you will have massive differences, which is made all the worse by the fact that you put your hope into one weapon.

 

Here is an example. A Twin-LC will do an average of 2.6 damage against a Rhino. A Heavy Onslaught Gatling will do 4/3 damage (1.33333333333) at 72% of the cost (1,6 at equivalent cost) and a Twin-HB will do 2/3 damage at 1/3 of the cost (2 at equivalent cost). Both will do less damage. But here is the deal. That scenario will happen far more often for the Gatling and the HB that for the LC. To make things simpler, lets take 3 LC shots and compare it with the Gatling. Getting 2 hits of LC happens 4/9 of the time, 2 or less 0.703 at the time. The Gatling getting 8 hits will only happen 0.24 of the time, 8 or less 0.607 of the time. However, and this is the deal breaker. Missing one more shot with the LC and thus losing 1/3 of your firepower (only 1 of 3 hits) will happen 0.26 of the time, whereass losing 1/3 of your firepower with the Gatling will only happen 0.018 of the time. See the difference? The LC has a significantly higher chance to deviate from its average, making its use very risky, especially with this low amount of shots. While the Gatling or HB will deviate more often from their average, the deviation will be small and getting such extreme spikes is all but impossible.

 

When you consider a 332pts Repulsor with base gear and 4 LC shots, you are looking at 7,028 damage against a Rhino. A fully dakka Repulsor with all possible gear but going for weight of fire as opposed for the LC will do 5.25 damage against a Rhino. While it does less damage, it will hit this average or a number close to it most of the time, with extreme variations being very rare, whereas the LC version will do more damage but deviate significatly more often.

Then there is those cases like Wave Serpents and Quantum Shields as well as smaller targets like infantry that punish multiple damage weapons with low amount of shots as opposed to low damage with high amount of shots.

 

The verdict is that missing with one additional shot of LC might lose you the game whereas missing with even a couple shots of a Gatling will only have a minor effect. Also note that the LC does not only have a significant risk in missing one additional shot, there is also a good chance to low poorly on the D6 damage roll. Same goes for the Plasma on the Redemptor, which also has the D6 shots factor.

 

Now, before you write up a response bashing this post, I want to mention that this is how I prefer to play. I prefer reliability at the cost of lower damage. Better to do 5 guaranteed damage rather than 7 with a chance of doing 3. The LC has an equal chance (appox.) to do more damage, whereas the Gatling will have an equally low chance for a high-roll. So if you are a person who gambles for the high-roll and takes the risk of rolling poorly, then yes, the LC a very good weapon. For those who prefer stability and want to avoid spikes, stay away from them. It is a matter of play style. I just wrote this to show another perspective and how I, a player who prefers to plan ahead and dislikes surprised, prefers consistency in my results and why.

 

Also note that re-rolls (Lieutenant, Captain, etc.) even it out a bit, but not enough to bring the consistency to point where it could the comparable with massed shooting.

 

If your army can muster plenty of Melta or LC (Xenos come to mind), then this issue becomes less severe, but armies like Marines, especially Primaris, will have fewer of those and pay dearly for them, at which point one might accept a tougher match-up against Knights or similar to have more consistent results in most other match-ups.

 

On a final note, I can confirm this with practical experience. I played a decent amount of games now and every single one of which ended with me being disappointed with the Repulsor because a critical LC shot whiffed in one way or another. I will try out the massed shooting variant and see how this goes.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Immersturm

[dtse]

Which is why in a good list you have plenty of both. 12 lascannons and 6 twin assault cannons. Boom. Done.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I cannot agree more on the binomial math stuff, was never bothered to calculate it but yep variance is the key.

Solved in part with spamming the mighty GodHammer, let heretics, xenos and traitors fear them.

And get rerolls to hit; front loading your luck pays dividends later

[dtse]

I'm no math whiz but having a whole bunch of them and using signums and getting rerolls to hits and wounds probably makes them more effective with less variance.

[Lion El Jason]

One of the few times I have agreed with someone on the LC front was for a Salamanders list with the single re-roll tactic.  One LC in a squad is a considerably better investment then.
Correct application of re-rolls is important but most can also benefit massed fire.  Belial behind my LR Prometheus is amazing.

I did a masters in maths and immediately dropped all heavy AT weapons in 8th, I have had no issues so far though the most armoured list I have come up against was
Land Raider
2x Baal Pred
2x Razorback
2x Dreadnought

But the heavy bolter and assault cannon fire I had, backed up with melee was more than enough.

 

YMMV but my motto is "Every time you buy a lascannon, you're doing it wrong!"

[aura_enchanted]

argue all u want my land raider excelsior and deimos laser destroyer are going nowhere in my lists, i fight wayyy too many land raider and leman russ and looted wagons too even consider replacements. i need higher damage thresholds in a single volley. and with the excelsior and primaris i can reliably make those guns a 2+ re-roll 1's meaning i NEVER miss and will always do some kind of damage. i would sooner take that over my opponents assault cannons and autocannons (or similar like weapons) barking with far less reliability.

 

i prefer this system because i simply have THAT much quality lascannon and not relying on things like devestators or predators or even a standard godhammer to hand out the ranged violence

[Frater Cornelius]

Which is why in a good list you have plenty of both. 12 lascannons and 6 twin assault cannons. Boom. Done.

Indeed. Extremes rarely solve problems (insert obvious political joke in here). I can get behind the odd Melta or Plasma gun on a tactical squad or a few Speeders running around. I am also a fan of the Killshot stratagem, which puts a bandaid on two of the biggest offenders, Wound roll and Damage roll. There is also anything can offers solid re-rolls.

 

What I am not a fan of are devastators, massed HK missiles (arguable though, because they are cheap), and slapping LCs on everything you can. On Razorbacks I am having massive respect for the Twin-HF and Twin-AC. Something I also like are flexible weapons. Anti tank weapons are more niche than things like Assault Cannons, so a weapon that has profiles for multiple roles like Missile Launchers or Plasmas (the latter being a favourite), is something I enjoy.

 

I think regular Marines have plenty of toys to play with when it comes to choosing appropriate anti tank weapons, be they man held or on various vehicles, and executing appropriate strategies such as relying more on Twin-AC and Plasmas as opposed to a couple LCs.

 

What I struggle with are Primaris, which do not have the same flexibility due to lack of choices at this point in time. Their LC options are so few, that there is merrit to just skip them, especially since I just found out that 5/-1/1 weapons are comparatively more effective against T5-9 models that have an invulnerable save of 5+ and higher, including Knights, than an LC (same maths for the HB as above, but worse for the LC than above). They have no options for Auto Cannons or Missiles, only two extremes which is either massed dakka or LC. This may change is the future but as of right now I am in a real pickle :/ There is always melee with Dreads and Aggressors, but you first need to get there...

Edited August 5, 2017 by Immersturm

[dtse]

Anyway the point of this thread I think if I remember was OP was having trouble with big forgeworld units and point is, if I show up with my mastodon, you aren't taking that down anytime soon with heavybolters. So math aside, you need a bit of both types of weapons to succeed in this game against all comers.

[Frater Cornelius]

Anyway the point of this thread I think if I remember was OP was having trouble with big forgeworld units and point is, if I show up with my mastodon, you aren't taking that down anytime soon with heavybolters. So math aside, you need a bit of both types of weapons to succeed in this game against all comers.

 

Is this always an argument? "I  bring my big toy and you will not be able to deal with it"? OP wanted a way to deal with big stuff, people say LC, I proposed an alternative and you proposed to bring your Mastodon to try a disprove numbers. Fair enough, I may not kill it because you may play it well and outplay me, but that is entirely beside the point.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Immersturm

[dtse]

it's not beside the point. The OP told us he had troubles killing large forgeworld models like giant squig goths. A bunch of us proposed that lascannons are a good solution. You proposed another solution. I merely used my mastodon and my play experience of this large forgeworld model as an example of how smaller higher rate fire wwapons may not be as effective as stronger higher AP weapons with less rate of fire. so we disagree. It wouldn't be the first time as you see earlier in this thread and in ther threads. Not sure why you feel like you have to jump all over me all the time but hey it's a forum and you can do as you wish. End of the day the OP can decide for himself what his solution is

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'm really liking Autocannon spam as a viable middle ground. :P

To my playstyle range is very important and that is what HBs and asscanns lack.

[Frater Cornelius]

On that note, Sicaran Battle Tank ;)

[dtse]

Fight forgeworld with forgeworld!

[Interrogator Stobz]

Multiple Index Twin Autocannon Vendreads with Guiliman and Lt bubble won the last tournament I was at and with a perfect score 100/100 over five games with no FW.

Change RG for Azrael and a Shroud for the same rerolls and better protection and until we get a codex you'd be rollin'. Once twin Autos get removed go to Mortis, but the irony of FW to beat FW continues

Edited August 5, 2017 by Interrogator Stobz