Fighting Forgeworld... Any ideas for help?

[Lion El Jason]

OP wanted a way to deal with big stuff, people say LC, I proposed an alternative and you proposed to bring your Mastodon to try a disprove numbers. 

 

 

 

The OP told us he had troubles killing large forgeworld models like giant squig goths. A bunch of us proposed that lascannons are a good solution. You proposed another solution. 

 

 

Just sayin' but...  I think I proposed the alternate solution ;)

[aura_enchanted]

I'm really liking Autocannon spam as a viable middle ground.

To my playstyle range is very important and that is what HBs and asscanns lack.

yes well once we get our codex riflemen dreadnaughts become illegal, and after that i guess the sicarian is the way to go as nobody else really has them in bulk other then the deredeo and leviathan and im not certain a leviathan with wrecker claw and auto's will be as good as the accelerator autocannon

Edited August 6, 2017 by aura_enchanted

[Frater Cornelius]

You can still use the Index for Rifleman Dread. GW said so.

[dtse]

For now. We will see once all the codexes are out

[Lion El Jason]

argue all u want my land raider excelsior and deimos laser destroyer are going nowhere in my lists, i fight wayyy too many land raider and leman russ and looted wagons too even consider replacements. i need higher damage thresholds in a single volley. and with the excelsior and primaris i can reliably make those guns a 2+ re-roll 1's meaning i NEVER miss and will always do some kind of damage. i would sooner take that over my opponents assault cannons and autocannons (or similar like weapons) barking with far less reliability.

 

Just wanted to correct you here.  Reliability is literally what the assault cannon and the like have over the lascannons.

 

Lascannons are for lucky dice, volume of fire is less expected damage but much more reliable.

[aura_enchanted]

 

argue all u want my land raider excelsior and deimos laser destroyer are going nowhere in my lists, i fight wayyy too many land raider and leman russ and looted wagons too even consider replacements. i need higher damage thresholds in a single volley. and with the excelsior and primaris i can reliably make those guns a 2+ re-roll 1's meaning i NEVER miss and will always do some kind of damage. i would sooner take that over my opponents assault cannons and autocannons (or similar like weapons) barking with far less reliability.

 

Just wanted to correct you here.  Reliability is literally what the assault cannon and the like have over the lascannons.

 

Lascannons are for lucky dice, volume of fire is less expected damage but much more reliable.

 

how is rolling bulk dice with inferior potential results more reliable. in this case the sum total of a single assault cannon is inferior to a grav cannon with amp and 4 lascannons especially ones that DONT miss unlike your crusader which does miss. youve barely rolled your dice and your going to already be removing dice as doing nothing while im already into my second round of dice rolls. your firing 6 shots to my 8. and if any of mine connect i will probably do damage because their saves are lowered while return fire from across the whole field (nevermind your crusader) is negated more then it normally would be thanks to regeneration and the fact that i have an invulnerable save to stop damage from dropping me to 6+'s. meaning i am in the fight longer. i will ultimately win a war of attrition chunking away at your health while your chipping at mine and watching it (however slowly) come back. 

 

in my last game as an example my excelsior took on TWO crusaders at the same time and if the game had continued i would have killed both LONG before they would have killed the excelsior. at the bottom of round 3 i have 15 of my 16 wounds still and they were both sub 10. simply put bulk dice is NOT as effective when your having to make extra rolls i dont and when i get to negate some of your damage after the fact anyway.

 

and with the deimos i am not getting 2 shots im getting two volleys of two allowing me to re-evaluate a target between my volleys which is information information i can use to make other decisions in my head long before ive even seen the second result. and again in a head to head against say a riflemen dread i also get to range you. between an autocannon predator and a deimos heres usually how it plays out, predator moves up because hes out of range, i already being in range double tap you with my lascannons 2's natively if im in range of my excelsior i get to re-roll 1's i am virtually guaranteed damage, you are now in range having suffers the scorn of 4 lascannons assuming no other damage has landed on either of us, we are now shooting at each other, you already damage likely below your first threshold are now hitting on 4's, wounding on 4's and 5's on the heavy bolters your shots go, then i go again i am chunking your health, even if you get me below threshold 1 i am still shooting on 3's while your likely barely above your final threshold, if you fall below that line your predator is effectively crippled and even if you win out in the end your damage has been rendered virtually out of play as you barely move making even basic terrain a chore to find shots around, your hitting on 5's hitting anything over t7 on 5's and if you try and melee anything your going to lose to rifle butts from space marines in theory if the game went on long enough. the deimos is an extremely powerful weapon against such vehicles.

 

your consistency works when dealing with conventional targets, targets you can realistically plink the damage away from such as xenos armor, or some monsters, but against t8+ vehicles especially ones with saves higher then they would normally be and/or regenerative health. and ones with dramatically different accuracy or superior range you will not be killing them anywhere near as effectively.

 

in addition your concept loses muscle as we consider past experiences with this and emperical evidence we have from previous editions of bulk bad shooting vs smaller quantities of better shooting. in a single shooting phase an entire ork army might not do a damn thing, but the space marine army across the table will. even if they all had the same baselines as the marines (but as a result the same numbers) across the table it does them little good. these orks in this case rely in the past and continue to rely on their melee to do the deed of killing things, treating their whole shooting phase as lucky damage to take the load off their need to get to melee. and your damn right its unexpected, if you get it right but that is not indicative of some overall quality improvement through sheer quantity. in fact most ork players if theyw ere to lose any dedicated shooting units (omitting some exceptions based on army composition naturally) would be honestly a bit confused and a bit grateful youd chosen to focus down the flash gitz and loota's in his backline ignoring the boys coming up the table to punch your army in the mouth. because he recognizes that if he gets there, this game has all but been won assuming no random acts of god occur.

 

its not just about rolling bulk dice, its about rolling the correct dice at the correct opponents and the careful balance between these shots in your shooting phase to ensure these things go where their supposed too. there is no luck in my system, i am always doing damage, while your hoping to do damage. and that isnt even math hammer as ive eliminated all but the tiniest margin for deviation. and over a course of several games that margin does come up, but that is just life; something ive come to accept. i would sooner face life then kiss dice and hope.

Edited August 8, 2017 by aura_enchanted

[Frater Cornelius]

@aura_enchanted - You do not seem to understand what he means by reliability. He is referring to only minor deviations from the expected value. The more dice you roll, the more likely the result will be the expected value. The Twin Assault Cannon may do 3 damage to any given targets and an Twin LC may do 5 (I used arbitrary numbers). However, you can count on the TAC to do those 3 damage most of the time, whereas the TLC will often do less or more than those average of 5. Reliability in the sense that you can count on the weapon doing the expected amount of damage. In that sense, the LC is one of the least reliable weapon due to having only 1 shot and random damage.

[aura_enchanted]

@aura_enchanted - You do not seem to understand what he means by reliability. He is referring to only minor deviations from the expected value. The more dice you roll, the more likely the result will be the expected value. The Twin Assault Cannon may do 3 damage to any given targets and an Twin LC may do 5 (I used arbitrary numbers). However, you can count on the TAC to do those 3 damage most of the time, whereas the TLC will often do less or more than those average of 5. Reliability in the sense that you can count on the weapon doing the expected amount of damage. In that sense, the LC is one of the least reliable weapon due to having only 1 shot and random damage.

i would sooner do some damage then roll a bunch of dice hoping for a result i will more often then not never see. 

[Extropian]

 

@aura_enchanted - You do not seem to understand what he means by reliability. He is referring to only minor deviations from the expected value. The more dice you roll, the more likely the result will be the expected value. The Twin Assault Cannon may do 3 damage to any given targets and an Twin LC may do 5 (I used arbitrary numbers). However, you can count on the TAC to do those 3 damage most of the time, whereas the TLC will often do less or more than those average of 5. Reliability in the sense that you can count on the weapon doing the expected amount of damage. In that sense, the LC is one of the least reliable weapon due to having only 1 shot and random damage.

i would sooner do some damage then roll a bunch of dice hoping for a result i will more often then not never see. 

 

 

I agree. With a large enough sample size Lascannons average much better damage than something like an assault cannon against vehicles. I don't mind the inevitable sad times when it misses or fails to wound, because overall it'll balance out. OPlus, it adds a bit of excitement to the game!

 

However, other people prefer the "throw buckets of dice and reliably take little nibbles out of a target" to the "one big bite" approach.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Lascannons aren't something you sprinkle in 8th, as they ARE high variance. You have to mass them. My current competitive list without FW stuff is carrying 18 lascanons, with the support of 3 twin-assault cannons. That list has done very well for me, as I have podium'd in all the 8th tournaments I have played in, and took 5th at the Boise GT with a somewhat similar list.

Having been in situations where my Assaultbacks had to shoot at tanks, I can heartily say it is underwhelming. If an Assaultback shoots at a Land Raider, you're looking at 1 wound on average. A Lasback, on the other hand, will on average deal 2 wounds. Double effectiveness vs vehicles, with a much larger chance of getting that great roll to blow something out of the water.

In the last tournament I played in, my lascannons deleted a Knight Titan and Vendetta of the table turn one. Massed Lascannon will definitely remove what is giving you trouble.

Also, if you're going to fight fire with fire, take a look at the Leviathan with dual Stormcannon Arrays. 309 points for a T8 2+/4++ that can deliver 20 shots of S7, -2, D2, hitting on twos. Shorter ranged, but they are incredible gun platforms. I'm so impressed with them, my alternative list carries two of them (while also taking 2 quad-LC predators to keep my lascannon count high enough to matter).

Edited August 10, 2017 by Brother-Captain Sharp

[Frater Cornelius]

How did you cram all those LCs into your list?

[dtse]

easy....just take them lol

 

 

leviathan sooo good....too bad people hate forgeworld where i play mostly.....

[Frater Cornelius]

easy....just take them lol

 

 

leviathan sooo good....too bad people hate forgeworld where i play mostly.....

 

Don't be a smartass. It is not like Marines have that many options for cost-effective and durable LCs at around 1850.

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

Quad lascannon preds are 190. Very effective.

 

 

++ Spearhead (CP +1) (Space Marines) [1084 Pts] ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Azrael [180 Pts]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Devastator Squad [141 Pts]: Armorium Cherub, 2x Lascannon, Plasma Cannon

 

Devastator Squad [141 Pts]: Armorium Cherub, 2x Lascannon, Plasma Cannon

 

Predator [190 Pts]: Twin Lascannon

. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

Predator [190 Pts]: Twin Lascannon

. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [121 Pts]: Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin Lascannon

 

Razorback [121 Pts]: Hunter-Killer Missile, Twin Lascannon

 

++ Battalion (CP +3) (Space Marines) [28 Pwr, 805 Pts] ++

 

+ Troops +

 

Tactical Squad [108 Pts, 9 Pwr]: Additional Marines, Lascannon, Power Axe

 

Tactical Squad [108 Pts, 9 Pwr]: Additional Marines, Lascannon, Power Axe

 

Tactical Squad [5 Pwr, 85 Pts]: Combi-Flamer, Flamer

 

+ HQ +

 

Techmarine [62 Pts, 5 Pwr]: Bolt Pistol, Power Axe, Servo arm

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Ravenwing Darkshroud [138 Pts]: Heavy Bolter

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [100 Pts]: Twin Assault Cannon

 

Razorback [102 Pts]: Stormbolter, Twin Assault Cannon

 

Razorback [102 Pts]: Stormbolter, Twin Assault Cannon

 

+ Troops +

 

Conscripts [60 Pts]

 

+ HQ +

 

Lord Commissar [51 Pts]: Bolt Pistol

 

++ Total: [2000 Pts]

Edited August 8, 2017 by Brother-Captain Sharp

[Lion El Jason]

 

@aura_enchanted - You do not seem to understand what he means by reliability. He is referring to only minor deviations from the expected value. The more dice you roll, the more likely the result will be the expected value. The Twin Assault Cannon may do 3 damage to any given targets and an Twin LC may do 5 (I used arbitrary numbers). However, you can count on the TAC to do those 3 damage most of the time, whereas the TLC will often do less or more than those average of 5. Reliability in the sense that you can count on the weapon doing the expected amount of damage. In that sense, the LC is one of the least reliable weapon due to having only 1 shot and random damage.

i would sooner do some damage then roll a bunch of dice hoping for a result i will more often then not never see. 

 

 

Have you even read this thread?

 

You DO see the damage from the ACs and HBs, thats the whole point.  The maths is not refutable.

The issue is largely the D6 damage which even if you hit and make the 3+ wound roll you get a random amount of damage, if you happen to get a low roll there you are going to struggle.  

Many shot weapons don't have that issue, they wound less and the enemy saves more but they reliably do slightly less damage not left to lucky damage rolls to kill vehicles.

 

If you feel lucky, go for the lascannon.

 

I prefer to know how much I need to dedicate to kill opposing stuff, rather than just "My plan is to roll high" so I go the reliable route with HBs and ACs.

[Extropian]

The maths is also irrefutable that lascannons do more damage on average than Assault cannons and the lack, it's just a different distribution.

T7 3+ save vehicle, with 3+ to hit:

 

Lascannon = 1.3 wounds average

Assault cannon = 0.4 wounds average

 

Against a Land Raider:

LC = 0.5 wounds

AC = 0.2 wounds

 

 

So about 3 Assault Cannons equals the average damage of a lascannon. The thing is that averages only even out over time, so the Lascannon will "spike" more, and the AC's will do regular but weak damage as long as you can get 3 of them instead of each Lascannon.

There's no wrong answer here. It's just play preference. 

[Helycon]

The maths is also irrefutable that lascannons do more damage on average than Assault cannons and the lack, it's just a different distribution.

T7 3+ save vehicle, with 3+ to hit:

 

Lascannon = 1.3 wounds average

Assault cannon = 0.4 wounds average

 

Against a Land Raider:

LC = 0.5 wounds

AC = 0.2 wounds

 

 

So about 3 Assault Cannons equals the average damage of a lascannon. The thing is that averages only even out over time, so the Lascannon will "spike" more, and the AC's will do regular but weak damage as long as you can get 3 of them instead of each Lascannon.

There's no wrong answer here. It's just play preference. 

I like how people always forget meltas. They are there to even out the variance and work better against < T7. Against > T8 and T9, the woundroll drops off, but before, chances are you'll do more damage. Sadly, their range is pretty damn terrible, making it a lot less safe.

 

Still, throwing a TON of small shots at something big will generally not kill it faster than than throwing less big shots at it. One of the prime examples was regulat bolters against a Leman Russ, when they introduced Toughness for vehicles in the early reveal days of 8th edition. 

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

[Quotel

 

There's no wrong answer here. It's just play preference.

I mean, you just did the math to show it's not. Lascannons are better to hunt vehicles with, *even if* one were to assume abnormally low rolls on damage. Even if I rolled nothing higher than a 3, I'd still come out ahead over trying to use Assault Cannons.

 

I appreciate you trying to be diplomatic, but the simple fact is that anyone who thinks ACs are "more reliable" AT is flatout misapplying statistics or hasn't even tried to run averages.

 

If someone is relying on Assault Cannons as their anti-tank over Lascannons, they are losing more games than they need too. No way around it.

[Extropian]

Yeah, i was being nice.

 

But it IS play preference....some people prefer guns that are objectively less effective on average, but more reliably do a very small amount of damage. However, those weapons do double duty as anti infantry, which single shot tank busters are terrible at.

 

Its not MY preference for sure, i prefer the mathematically more effective weapons in each role and will bring more specialised units to deal with things, rather than rely on less effective "one size fits all" solutions.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Extropian

[Brother-Captain Sharp]

OP asked for advice on how to deal with high toughness, high wound models. Those recommending assault cannons are recommending a sub-optimal solution. Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters are not one size fits all. They have reduced range, and are drastically less effective against armor. If someone was recommending missile launchers as an all-arounder, I could see it (though I would still argue for specialized units to handle each need individually), but the idea of a 24" range gun with only S6 and Rend -1 being a universal tool is pretty flawed, especially when competitive matches are won by the player that does the most damage in the first three turns. 

 

I love Assault Cannons. They are my premier anti-infantry weapon. But telling someone who struggling vs vehicles to take more ACs is just making their life harder.

 

 

 

I prefer to know how much I need to dedicate to kill opposing stuff, rather than just "My plan is to roll high" so I go the reliable route with HBs and ACs.

 

Imagine you are a schoolboy and I am a bully. You have the choice between me poking you slightly every lunch in an attempt to get your lunch, or every other time I approach you I fall and cry, but the other half of the time I kick your butt 7 ways to Sunday. Which would you prefer? It's incredibly reliable that every lunch I will poke you in the shoulder in the first case. However, the second case is the only one in which I get your lunch more than a few times.

 

Same thing with low S/ low Dmg weapons. They may feel more "reliable" in that you are seeing wounds more commonly, but the overall impact is very slight. AGAIN, even if I was rolling 1s, 2s, and 3s (and nothing but), my lascannons will deal more wounds to a high-priority vehicle.

 

You can feel free to plink away at my 7 vehicles while I table you with effective shooting, though. 

 

I wouldn't be so adamant if this was just a discussion of "what do you like to take in your lists?", but OP asked for legitimate help, and recommending sub-optimal options isn't answering the question.

[Trevak Dal]

Yeah forgeworld can still feel like the other player is going "Screw the rules, I have (more) Money!"

 

Back in 7th I'd ask to play a Zone Mortalis game, it would mitigate a lot of annoying 7th stuff (formation free tanks, etc). If they refused...well I'd put my Chaos away and crack out my "Lucille" (Taunar supremacy armor) and my storm surge, and all of my 30 crisis suits.

 

They would quickly agree that a Zone Mortalis game sounded a lot more fun. Secondary to how cool it looks, the main reason I got it was as a deterrent.

[Lion El Jason]

 

There's no wrong answer here. It's just play preference.

I mean, you just did the math to show it's not. Lascannons are better to hunt vehicles with, *even if* one were to assume abnormally low rolls on damage. Even if I rolled nothing higher than a 3, I'd still come out ahead over trying to use Assault Cannons.

 

I appreciate you trying to be diplomatic, but the simple fact is that anyone who thinks ACs are "more reliable" AT is flatout misapplying statistics or hasn't even tried to run averages.

 

If someone is relying on Assault Cannons as their anti-tank over Lascannons, they are losing more games than they need too. No way around it.

 

 

Or rather people who think Lascannon are more reliable haven't understood the statistics and just run averages.

 

You also ignore the fact that ACs are cheaper so you DO have more of them.

 

Maths and experience tell me that the points you waste on lascannon and the advantages ACs have vs hordes mean lascannons are obsolete.  As I said at the start, YMMV but the numbers are right there.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Lion El Jason

[Frater Cornelius]

To be honest though, you can not compare the absolute cost of an AC or HB to an LC, because every weapon comes with a tax, namely the model carrying the weapon. In the example of the Razorback, you pay 115 for a TLC one, 100 for a TAC and 82 for THB. The relative cost difference is far smaller than the relative difference between 50, 35 and 17pts. Hence I think that the 'I can take more' is not universally applicable but depends on who or what carries the weapon.

 

I think I go back to what dtse said, best bring a mix instead of going extreme.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

With 10 days and 2 pages of information, I thibk it's safe to say OP has everything to make an informed decision and test what is best for him.

At this point the word duel to decide which is better to kill FW with is going in circles and no one will convince another what is best... OP will choose what is best for himself.