Erelim Squad (Playtesters?)

[Servant of Dante]

Alright, inspired by Eddie's comments in the Codex Wishes thread, here's my take on Sisters cyborgs basically (the idea I have is that their limbs are more or less gone, they're basically just their vital organs and head implanted into this robotic body).

 

Like the title now says, if anyone would like to try playtesting this unit, I think were at that point now. I'd think a 25 mm base would be appropriate, perhaps a 32 mm one. If you do try playing Erelim, please post your thoughts here.

 

Some of the questions I'm interested in:

 

What size base did you use and do you think it feels right?

Are they overcosted/undercosted?

Do they do too little/too much?

Do they play like a Sisters unit?

What did your opponent think of them?

How many times did you save a wound with Neural Feeback and how many times did Neural Feedback take off an extra wound?

     (remember a 1 or 2 on a model that already has taken a wound doesn't do anything extra since the model is already going to die from the wound you're trying to save )

 

 

RULES PDF  (my plain formatting version)

 

 

Rules and initial concept: Servant of Dante

Datasheet formatting and concept art: Ezr91aeL

 

 

ORIGINAL POST

Hidden Content

EDIT: The issues below have been addressed in one form or another, but feel free to leave another sugestion anyway

 

- I don't have a name for the unit yet, so suggestions welcome

 

- I'm not sure they should have both the vehicle and infantry keywords, but Sister vehicles don't usually have AoF . . .

 

- I wanted to represent that the pain the Sisters feel from the neural connections of the body kinda wash out the pain from wounds, but just giving them the FnP ability felt a bit off. So it has a downside. A rather steep one, but I think it's pretty fluffy.

 

- The Praesidium Protectiva's rules are based on how it worked in 2E compared to the Storm Shield. For reference, here's how their respective functions are paraphrased in the Battle Bible:

 

Storm Shield: “Model receives an extra armour saving throw of 4+ against shooting or hand-to-hand combat (32) which cannot be modified and applies only against attacks from the front 90 arc. May be used to parry (33).”

 

Praesidium Protectiva: “Requires a free hand to use, and may parry (33) a close combat (32) attack in the character‘s front arc, and provides an unmodified 4+ saving throw on a D6 against close combat attacks. If a roll of 6 is made for the save, the attacking model receives the hit instead. Has no effect on shooting attacks.”

 

Comments Appreciated

Edited August 7, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Gen.Steiner]

Remove keyword <Vehicle>. They're clearly infantry.

Reduce Ld to 7 and 8. Why would Celestians be the ones to have their bodies carved up by the AdMech?

 

Sister Superior only one with access to power weaponry. Too much like Terminators otherwise.

 

Remove Mortal Wound and replace with 'suffers a S4 AP -1 wound'? Mortal Wounds are nasty and I don't like things that generate them, particularly not as the result of the attacking player's own action.

 

 

My tuppence ha'penny on the matter anyway!

[Commander Dawnstar]

I feel like a big influence on the name will be how you represent these things in the fluff: whether being bonded with one of these suits is considered an honour or a punishment. My off-the-cuff thoughts, mainly inspired by sticking words into synonym generators, were Abnegators and Expiators, the former presenting them as willingly giving up their mortal frames to better serve the Emperor and the latter presenting service in this unit as a form of atonement unto death. I'd also have been tempted to suggest Oblatia if FFG hadn't already used that in Dark Heresy.

 

That is, of course, before we start getting into the real silly stuff like calling them Cyber-Martyrs

 

One concern I'll throw out there about this design is their resiliency. An additional 5+ save to ignore unsaved wounds actually leaves them more resilient than vanilla Terminators at Toughness 3 and barely worse off than them even at Toughness 2, and that's before you consider that they can save Mortal Wounds. Even a hypothetical Strength 4/-3 weapon at BS3+ (so wounding the Sisters on a 2+ and Marines on a 4+, leaving them both with their 5++ saves) still only results in two more unsaved wounds on the Sisters than the Marines for every 81 shots fired. It still takes 33 Bolter Shots to kill one of them off at Toughness 2, and the reduction in Toughness isn't even a disadvantage against anything Strength 6 or above. It's a far less severe penalty than it sounds.

[Servant of Dante]

Hum, yeah, I'd agree to removing the Vehicle keyword.

 

This would be something you'd want veterans doing. It's not a punishment. Not exactly a reward, just something that's in limited supply so you'd want competent Sisters doing it.

 

They'll be way too bad in melee without power weapons. In fact, if only the leader has a power weapon, that's actually more like termis. There's a reason they don't have access to heavy weapons or power fists. Keep them different from terminators. Mostly, if only 1 has a a real melee weapon, they really can't compete in melee. And chainswords on heavy infantry doesn't really feel right, so I want to retain the option to keep them. 

 

Mortal wounds are the way things seem to be done this edition. It's also a lot cleaner than the S4 AP -1 wound. And the Praesidium only works in close combat, so it's hardly overpowered.

 

Those are just my thoughts though. 

[Servant of Dante]

I feel like a big influence on the name will be how you represent these things in the fluff: whether being bonded with one of these suits is considered an honour or a punishment. My off-the-cuff thoughts, mainly inspired by sticking words into synonym generators, were Abnegators and Expiators, the former presenting them as willingly giving up their mortal frames to better serve the Emperor and the latter presenting service in this unit as a form of atonement unto death. I'd also have been tempted to suggest Oblatia if FFG hadn't already used that in Dark Heresy.

 

That is, of course, before we start getting into the real silly stuff like calling them Cyber-Martyrs

 

One concern I'll throw out there about this design is their resiliency. An additional 5+ save to ignore unsaved wounds actually leaves them more resilient than vanilla Terminators at Toughness 3 and barely worse off than them even at Toughness 2, and that's before you consider that they can save Mortal Wounds. Even a hypothetical Strength 4/-3 weapon at BS3+ (so wounding the Sisters on a 2+ and Marines on a 4+, leaving them both with their 5++ saves) still only results in two more unsaved wounds on the Sisters than the Marines for every 81 shots fired. It still takes 33 Bolter Shots to kill one of them off at Toughness 2, and the reduction in Toughness isn't even a disadvantage against anything Strength 6 or above. It's a far less severe penalty than it sounds.

hum. good point. I might have to make it a 6+ FnP then :)

 

as for fluff, it's not a reward, and it's not a punishment. They would be more or less veterans selected by their superiors (though accepting the operation wouldn't necessarily be compulsory). I don't really want to fluff the name out as "self-denial," well, maybe? I'd have to think about it.

 

In any case, thanks!

[Commander Dawnstar]

That's probably down to me approaching the idea from a direction that doesn't match up with yours. You say "they're basically just their vital organs and head implanted into this robotic body" and I think of Sicarian Infiltrators/Skitarii Ruststalkers, Arco-Flagellants and Dreadnoughts - the remnants of a person trapped in a prison of steel and the loss of the sacred human form. I'm guessing that you must have just a little bit more positive of a perspective on this than the one I'm working with XD

[Servant of Dante]

Yeah, I guess I'm injecting a bit of the old "metal over meat" into this :D I'm letting it tickle the part of me that likes cyberpunk.

 

But I look at it this way: They're giving up their humanity and the chance to truly ever relax in order to become a superior instrument of the Emperor's will. It's not something the Sisters need all their members to do, they just need some, but all the same they are a potent weapon. The idea to me is that the Sister would go into this willingly, giving up normal human existence in order to fight more fully for the Emperor.

 

Of course you could play up that some members of the Sororitas consider this an unholy desecration of the holy human form, if you wanted. But I see no reason to make it an entirely negative thing. Perhaps you could even consider them living martyrs

 

. . . 

 

ooh that's good. I hadn't thought of them as living martyrs before just now, but I might have to run with that. The key difference here is that a Repentia seeks to die in order to atone. one of these Sisters seeks to fight as long as they can in this metal body, enduring pain and deprivation in order to serve the Emperor in a unique and powerful capacity. 

 

Really, thank you for your posts. I don't know that I would have fleshed out my thoughts in this way without your prodding.

[Gen.Steiner]

Thought - Sisters of Battle guard shrines and pilgrim routes; they accompany Cardinals and Ecclesiarchs on missions and on penitent crusades, they fight for the God-Emperor outside the remit of the Adeptus Munitorum which controls and orders the Guard around.

So how do these living martyrs fit in?

Also I was thinking of them like the MEC Troopers in X-Com... still with their torso and head but missing their original arms and legs. They can get in and out of the suits but they are functionally incapable of fighting outside the suits as the prosthetics they use when not in their war-suits are very simple and designed so they can do basic things like eat, sleep and pray, rather than karate chop or wield a bolter.

 

I would go down the route of less choice on the power weapons if they're going to have them - either all power mauls or all power swords.

[Servant of Dante]

Hum, yeah, perhaps all power mauls, I just wanted to give choice there.

 

As for how they fit in . . . I'm not sure what you mean. They're heavy infantry, good for walking into situations where you expect to take heavy fire, and good for delivering concentrated short range firepower. It's really a similar role to the Terminator. Sure, these Sisterd wouldn't be used for guard duty, that wouldn't make much sense. They're more expensive f a shock unit (albeit a slow one). The Sisters do pleanty of fighting in rather nasty conditions (genestealer/chaos cult infestations, Wars of Faith, and even assisting in Crisades that the Ecclesiarch has deemed are also Wars of Faith), so there would be a use for a very heavy infantry unit to push back the very thickest of hoards, and what not.

 

I imagine that once you're on a battlefield, they're good a defending a point, especially in areas where there is restricted movement, since they have lots of short range firepower. Really, they would be good for guarding shrines and whatnot, but I imagine their appearance isn't the most pleasant, and with the pain they're in and the scarcity of their equipment, well, it just would be pretty impractical.

 

So they would be for the big, heavy fighting (the kind of fighting the Sisters do in games of 40K) not so much for routine screening for mutation, or guard duty, or transporting a relic or whatever (especially that one since one of their arms ends in either a shield or a gun :D)

 

As for getting in and out of the suits? That's. Not what I had in mind. I was thinking that this was a procedure to fully meld the Sister with the mechanical body. So their vitals still exist, they're just encased permenantly in adamantium, and their limbs are gone for good, the neural fibers fused into the control circuits for the limbs of their new mechanical body (and the idea is that those connections are pretty painful).

 

Edit: actually I'd like to let you choose which Merle weapon n to use, but I think it'd be good to make the whole squad take the same weapon.

 

As for eating sleeping and praying, they would still have to do all 3. Sleeping is just a necessity for your brain, and they still have one of those, it would just be reeeally uncomfortable, just like every other moment of their life. Eating, same thing, if they have biological components they need to eat, but I guess the mechanicus might be feeding them nutrient pastes or something. Probably not particularly tasty, though it's not like normal sister eat fancy. And prayer is just something all Sisters do, they still can kneel or prostrate themselves, they can still pray (and they still would) it's just less natural feeling and more uncomfortable like everything else.

 

I don't picture it as an abandonment of what makes them Sisters, but it is a sacrifice of normalcy for the good of humanity, which is really what Sisters do to begin with, this just takes it to 11. At least that's the way I see it :D and it's not like I imagine the Sisters fielding large numbers of these things, they're a highly specialized unit, and. Sry expensive to make and maintain (and you just know that the mechanicus adds additional charges on top of that because they don't like the Ministorum, like how they charge the Ministorum exorbitant fees to fix arcane relics when they break).

Edited August 2, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Gen.Steiner]

Ah, I see what you mean now. OK.

Yeah, I think power mauls fit them nicely then - unsubtle and bludgeoning.

[dracpanzer]

Just like Sisters in Dreadnought's, Sister Centurions seems a bit off. To me the entire point of the Sisters Faith is that they want to die for the Emperor without just strapping on a suicide collar and charging. Some how denying a mortally wounded Sister the ability to do so after serving in battle faithfully seems to walk away from this Idea. I applaud your efforts, but would rather stick to Repentia and PenEngines.

[Servant of Dante]

Just like Sisters in Dreadnought's, Sister Centurions seems a bit off. To me the entire point of the Sisters Faith is that they want to die for the Emperor without just strapping on a suicide collar and charging. Some how denying a mortally wounded Sister the ability to do so after serving in battle faithfully seems to walk away from this Idea. I applaud your efforts, but would rather stick to Repentia and PenEngines.

. . . 

 

did you read what I said about this unit?

 

They aren't at all Sisters dreadnoughts. Or Centurions. We're not strapping mortally wounded Sisters into this thing. I doubt they'd survive the procedure.

 

I agree that Sisters Dreadnoughts are silly and not super fluffy, and I'm actively against suicide bombs for Sisters under any circumstances. Centurions are just a suit over your armour, which isn't even close to what I've been talking about in this thread

 

But I never mentioned Sisters Dreadnoughts or suicide collars anywhere in this thread. I could see how maybe the rules could look like mini dreads? but there's nothing even suggestive of suicide bombs or centurion armour here.

 

Edit: sorry for coming on a bit strong, but . . . you're bashing this concept for doing things that it's not doing, at all.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[dracpanzer]

 

did you read what I said about this unit?

 

 Edit: sorry for coming on a bit strong, but . . . you're bashing this concept for doing things that it's not doing, at all.

Yes I did read what you said. You wrote that the idea was to more or less remove the limbs of a Sister and implant their head and vital organs into a robotic body. How is that different than Marines putting those with mortal wounds into a Dreadnought? It's different only because Marines don't surgically maim perfectly serviceable Marines in order to produce viable candidates for the procedure. I looked past the idea that your idea wasn't interested in wounded Sororitas, my apologies. The difference, in my mind, makes the concept even less human and therefore worse than the Marines Dreadnought program.

 

As far as bashing the concept. "I applaud your efforts, but would rather stick to Repentia and PenEngines." Hardly qualifies as bashing anything. If they made it into the codex I simply wouldn't play them, if they put gun servitors in I probably wouldn't play them either. Qualifies as a little too much like a Marine concept.

[CaptainMarsh]

Idea: You can keep the 5+ FnP, but on a 1, the model is slain and the rest of the unit gets changed to a 6+. Further 1's slay the model that fails, doesn't change the FnP. Gives them unique staying power but can be bad times.

Another: You could even make it 4+. On a 1 though, the unit takes d3+1 mortal wounds that this ability can't save against. (The feedback becomes too much and they freak out, dying of various injuries as well as accidental friendly fire from each other) Again, very unique staying power, but you are guaranteed at least one model bites the dust, maybe two, three in the worst case if they fail. It makes a CP re-roll a very worthy buy.

Edited August 2, 2017 by CaptainMarsh

[Servant of Dante]

 

Yes I did read what you said. You wrote that the idea was to more or less remove the limbs of a Sister and implant their head and vital organs into a robotic body. How is that different than Marines putting those with mortal wounds into a Dreadnought? It's different only because Marines don't surgically maim perfectly serviceable Marines in order to produce viable candidates for the procedure. I looked past the idea that your idea wasn't interested in wounded Sororitas, my apologies. The difference, in my mind, makes the concept even less human and therefore worse than the Marines Dreadnought program.

 

As far as bashing the concept. "I applaud your efforts, but would rather stick to Repentia and PenEngines." Hardly qualifies as bashing anything. If they made it into the codex I simply wouldn't play them, if they put gun servitors in I probably wouldn't play them either. Qualifies as a little too much like a Marine concept.

 

Hum, well, I don't have a moral issue with this, considering it's voluntary and all the other crap the Ministorum does 

 

I think that this is thematically different from anything the marines do, but that's just my opinion. At the very least I think it's an interesting concept. A dreadnought is a rather large vehicle with a corpse plunged into the controls. This is more bodily replacement than that, in my mind.

 

I apologize for misreading you comments.  Thanks for the reply!

Edited August 2, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Servant of Dante]

Idea: You can keep the 5+ FnP, but on a 1, the model is slain and the rest of the unit gets changed to a 6+. Further 1's slay the model that fails, doesn't change the FnP. Gives them unique staying power but can be bad times.

 

Another: You could even make it 4+. On a 1 though, the unit takes d3+1 mortal wounds that this ability can't save against. (The feedback becomes too much and they freak out, dying of various injuries as well as accidental friendly fire from each other) Again, very unique staying power, but you are guaranteed at least one model bites the dust, maybe two, three in the worst case if they fail. It makes a CP re-roll a very worthy buy.

Hum, well the idea isn't that the people in the unit are connected to eachother, it's just that I can't reduce the T of just 1 model, so I approximate it by reducing the toughness of all of them. I think you're thinking that killing one hurts the others, which isn't the idea. The idea is that the pain from the neural connections does kinda wash out the pain from actual injuries, but at some point it all becomes too much, and they, as an individual, become more prone to injury. 

 

I reduced the whole unit's T since I can't really just reduce 1 model's T. I suppose this approximation does give a false impression of what I'm trying to convey with this rule. Maybe I'll remove the debuf to the whole unit entirely, to avoid this confusion.

 

I'm thinking on a 5+ the wound is saved, on a 1 or 2, the model is removed as a casualty even if it has wounds remaining.

[Servant of Dante]

Alright, I've not updated the PDF, but here are some notes:

 

-I'm removing the Vehicle keyword

 

- I'm letting the unit choose between power mauls and chainslwords, but everyone has to have the same Merle weapon. I wanted to restrict this to balance out letting you mix and match special weapons and shields. And to keep them from usurping Domininons, remember they don't have Vanguard and can't ride in transports (and have a 5" move).

 

-I'm still looking at how exactly to work their durability. Not taking into account the "dies regardless on 1 or 2" thing I set up a spreadsheet with chance to wound based on variable strength and ap comparing these Sisters and Termis. I initially tried the Sisters at 2+/6++ (I'm probably going to get rid of the Blessed Adamantium ability) and a 6+ FnP. This makes them comparable to Termis in terms of survivability, but not the same. I'll play around with the stats more later, I'm away from my computer at the moment. I'm pleased with the way this is looking so far, though.

Edited August 2, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Servant of Dante]

I've updated the pdf link in the OP!

 

- removed Vehicle keyword

 

- restricted squad to chainswords and power mauls, and they all have to make the same choice

 

- removed Blessed Adamantium ability (so they just have a 6++)

 

- changed Neural Feedback ability to 6+ FnP, and on a 1 or 2 the model dies even if it has a wound left.

 

I ran the numbers through excel comparing the suitability of these Sisters and Termis. They're pretty close, statistically, but never exactly the same, and I didn't take into account the 1/3 chance of losing both wounds at once to Neural Feedback when trying to save the first wound you take, or the 1/6 chance of saving mortal wounds.

[Gen.Steiner]

I like this new version a lot more. Less powerful, but still dangerous, and the ability to kit them out with power mauls gives them a punch in CC at the expense of slightly less A. I do like this. Maybe make the Neural Feedback save remove a model on just a 1 thought? Otherwise you have a 33% chance of losing a model entirely from potentially a single wound!

[Servant of Dante]

But it has no downside when saving for a model that has already taken a wound. So every other unsaved wound has a 1/3 chance of killing an entire model. If I just made it a 1 I don't think it would happen as much as I want it to.

 

The way this is worded, you're going to have to roll the Neural Feedback saves 1 at a time. You'll be able to roll armour/invuln saves all at once, but then you'll have to 1 at a time since a 1 or 2 kills a whole model, but only if nobe of the remaining models in the unit have taken any wounds.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Name suggestions (besides the obvious and cliché "Iron Maidens"): "Sisters of Iron Will" (pun intended) and "Sisters in Iron Penance" (the similarity to "Penitent Engines" is intentional).

[Servant of Dante]

I want to follow the existing naming conventions, so it will be ____ Squad. I want the blank to be a single word, something that doesn't sound out of place alongside Seraphim, Dominion, Retributor, Celestian, Repentia . . . 

[Aqui]

I want to follow the existing naming conventions, so it will be ____ Squad. I want the blank to be a single word, something that doesn't sound out of place alongside Seraphim, Dominion, Retributor, Celestian, Repentia . . .

How about Erelim or Ishim?

[Servant of Dante]

I think Erelim would work ("valiant/courageous"). It seems Erelim aren't really part of the traditional christian hierarchy of angels, but then Retributors and Celestians aren't from any hierarchy of angels

 

Also, even though the proper sigular seems to be Er'el, I think I might use the plural for the singular case as well. It would fit the pattern with other unit names better, and it's not like any of this has to be 100% theologically accurate. Thanks Aqui, I'll go update the PDF!

 

Edit: PDF updated! (the link is still in the OP).

 

Edit2: Noticed a typo, it's been fixed :D.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Ezr91aeL]

More than Chainsword if it was me I'd use Chainaxes. That "+1S -1AP" is incredibly good and chain weapons fits sisters a lot. Maybe an Eviscerator for the Superior?