+++ Dark Raiders: Renegade Astartes for 8th +++

[Prot]

So I bring this up because it's become the catch all for the Traitor Astartes no matter the background.

As someone who went armpit deep in Red Corsairs, and then Crimson Slaughter more recently this appears to be the spot where we can review the codex and tactics.

I wanted to see Kranon back even though Traitors Hate was quite cruel to them. I actually really enjoyed their story and very unique twist on Khorne and Tzeentch mingled into an unlikely blend that created the Slaughter. But they ( and the Corsairs) don't feel flushed out enough losing all that character and being lumped into a category.

Dark Raiders is the army trait of all the 'Renegade' Chapters, and confers Advancing and Assaulting in the same turn.

Out of curiosity who is firing these guys up again, or considering starting them? If so what angle or approach are you considering to he army?

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well the renegade rules are definetly not as interesting as any of the traitor legions because all they get is a tactic, while everyone else gets relics, warlord traits and stratagems. 

 

Now I'm a Word Bearers player but I still think there's plenty of potential for renegades, especially Red Corsairs given Huron is a solid character now. Nice other thing is about renegades is unlike many legions you can take pretty much any units you want without it feeling unfluffy, plus the renegades trait benefits a ton of CSM units so you can basically take whatever units you want for Red Corsairs lead by Huron and you have a decent army. 

[Gratan]

I'd really hoped GW would finally do something meaningful with Crimson Slaughter, but I guess not... It really makes me sad... 

I've got about 2000 points I can play, but its anything but perfect and I have no idea how well it would do. 

 

If I thought I could get a decent price for the army, I'd probably sell it.... But whatever...

 

[Sception]

While renegades only get a tactic, that tactic is one of the better ones in the book.  It encourages aggressive builds which seems to fit well with the most prominent renegade chapters, and in particular seems to favor bikes (since their advance move is so much better) and possessed (who won't be shooting anyway), both of which are getting nice boosts in the new book otherwise (bikes get a sweet price drop, while possessed get a second wound at the same points value), which is nice for Red Corsairs and Crimson Slaughter respectively.

 

The focus is definitely on the Legions again, continuing the trend from the Traitor Legion supplement at the tail end of 7th edition, rather than the renegade focus in CSM design that had been holding sway arguably since the 4th ed book, but even so I don't think you're in a terrible position here.  Would have been nice if Kranon had gotten a proper special character write up, but then GW wouldn't have been able to pretend that they have a power armored lord model in circulation.

[Azekai]

You know what would be cool? If the more recent renegades could get access to some of the new Space Marine vehicles. You could even make them like relics, spending a command point to be able to take land speeders, loyalist variant dreadnoughts, or storm ravens. That would give the forlorn newbies of chaos something defining and unique relative to the powerful but old traitor legions. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

Completely agree with that making a lot of narrative sense, but I just don't ever see that ever happening. GW just isn't going to give a chaos faction access to land speeders, pods and other loyalist only units. 

[Cryptix]

I for one am actually happy with this because it means I can put my Dusk Raiders to use outside of HH. Of course, they are currently just the contents of Burning of Prospero, but I plan to primarisize some noise marines and Berserkers!

[Gosford]

Completely agree with that making a lot of narrative sense, but I just don't ever see that ever happening. GW just isn't going to give a chaos faction access to land speeders, pods and other loyalist only units.

 

We also never thought we'd see Primarchs on the table...

[Azekai]

Completely agree with that making a lot of narrative sense, but I just don't ever see that ever happening. GW just isn't going to give a chaos faction access to land speeders, pods and other loyalist only units. 

Eh, I don't really see it happening either. One or two drop pods in a newly-renegade chapter would make wayyyyyy too much sense for good ol' GW. It just seems so odd that renegade chapters are expected to be basically identical to the ancient legions. 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Huron seems like a great deal, despite apparently losing his Fearless aura in the Codex. He gets +1 CP, and is basically a lord and sorc combined. He can't take a jump pack or bike, which is a shame, but he makes up for it by being cheap.

[Brother Aiwass]

CS have their own rules, at least the models in the DV starter set had their rules updated for 8th afaik. As for not having relics, are all relics legion only?

[Backslide]

relics wont be legion only just the generic ones same with stratagems, I'm amused by the thought of 40 or so renegade possessed... easily back them with a 100 cultists and plenty left over 

[Blackheart1223]

Anybody remember back in 2nd ed when Red Corsairs could take Imperial equipment? I think they had to pay double for Daemons to compensate.

[Galron]

Chaos renegades did in fact used to have access to modern space marine vehicles and post heresy equipment. Huron and his red corsairs had access to the space marine codex back in the day and all legions on certain things like terminators could have post heresy equipment like thunder hammers and storm shields but they had to pay +25% for it. I forget how long it lasted but my terminator Lord with storm shield and thunder hammer lasted through 3rd although by that point I might have been calling them his daemon save and daemon weapon. Never been a huge fan of the daemony stuff.

[Prot]

While renegades only get a tactic, that tactic is one of the better ones in the book.  It encourages aggressive builds which seems to fit well with the most prominent renegade chapters, and in particular seems to favor bikes (since their advance move is so much better) and possessed (who won't be shooting anyway), both of which are getting nice boosts in the new book otherwise (bikes get a sweet price drop, while possessed get a second wound at the same points value), which is nice for Red Corsairs and Crimson Slaughter respectively.

 

The focus is definitely on the Legions again, continuing the trend from the Traitor Legion supplement at the tail end of 7th edition, rather than the renegade focus in CSM design that had been holding sway arguably since the 4th ed book, but even so I don't think you're in a terrible position here.  Would have been nice if Kranon had gotten a proper special character write up, but then GW wouldn't have been able to pretend that they have a power armored lord model in circulation.

 

Those are some really good points. Ironically I have 'red' units of Bikes, and Possessed ready to go, and both of those units I have not cared for in 8th so far in my games. So this is an interesting angle. Does this make those units valid though? 

 

I'm actually a bit heartbroken about Krannon. I truly grew to like his character through out all the books, even watching him go mad when he put his brother in a Helbrute. lol (who would do that to their brother... actually I think my brother could use it now that I think of it.)

 

 

You know what would be cool? If the more recent renegades could get access to some of the new Space Marine vehicles. 

 

This is something I've tossed around a lot... actually a lot of people have because on one hand you lose Veterans of the Long War, but you should have some maintained 'modern' marine stuff in your arsenal. It could be something simple too.

 

 

 

Huron seems like a great deal, despite apparently losing his Fearless aura in the Codex. He gets +1 CP, and is basically a lord and sorc combined. He can't take a jump pack or bike, which is a shame, but he makes up for it by being cheap.

 

 

Huron... I wish his Aura was re-roll 1's to hit. Really he's historically been a sneaky tactician, and a very strong leader. I think Graham McNeil nailed him once in a short story; very charismatic, but a hairpin temper and he seems to operate in a lot of layers of thought when going to war.

 

As a side note Red Corsairs had a cool appearance in GSIII.

 

 

 

CS have their own rules, at least the models in the DV starter set had their rules updated for 8th afaik. As for not having relics, are all relics legion only?

 

Is this true? I don't think so.... actually GW slowly killed the idea of Red Corsairs as a chapter. They built them up, gave them characters more or less, had them raiding Dark Angel forgeworlds, then eventually they had been sent out by Abaddon and set up to die in Traitor's Hate. The 'updated' rules in 7th removed the ability to even make the characters. Instead you could use one of their artifacts. It completely neutered them out of existence. So I would be surprised if they resurrected them.

 

^That part infuriates me. The only models they really created in a long time for Chaos were heavily featured in Crimson Slaughter and they pretty much burned the chapter down. One of the first questions I asked when leaks of the Chaos Codex came out was; is Krannon or any of his officers in the datasheets? 

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Huron is okay. Priced okay, but the only real benefit I see from him is the +1 CP.  Honestly I'd much rather make room for about 100 pts and just take Abaddon. He's far more survivable, capable in CC, and a huge force multiplier... and gets you another CP now!

 

I think Renegade army tactics seem okay, but I'm not sold on them actually being better than let's say.. running straight up Khorne with a Sorc or something. Renegades steers you towards assault, and some armies are just far better at it. If you take units that only perform that one action well, then when you face the Nids, World Eaters, Orks, etc, that actually assault better, AND can shoot... I think that could expose the lack of flexibility and make for a quick game. I obviously haven't tried the 8th Codex rules in game though.

 

There's a lot to look forward in the codex. A unit I've always been attached to but has really sucked over the years is... Warp Talons. Might they finally be usable? They don't really seem to benefit from the Renegade rules, but would probably fit in well with it (denying overwatch helps any assault army). 

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well good news for you is Huron's aura now is reroll 1s to hit. Just the standard chaos lord aura but he's also a sorc, has decent weapons and gives you a command point so I think Huron is quite solid. Sure Abaddon is better but he's also significantly more expensive.

 

Warp talons definitely benefit from the legion rules. They don't have ranged weapons so now they can always advance and charge. Doesn't help the turn they deep strike in but after that if you want them to reach far off targets the tactic makes it a bit easier. As for whether they are a decent choice now or not, I think we'll need to wait and see what their pts cost is.

[Galron]

Bring a jump pack sorcerer with warp time. Now your talons are in hand to hand first turn.

[Sception]

dark vengeance got 8e write ups, but they're mostly just named duplications of generic rules.

 

I don't know if the improvements to bikes & possessed, particularly for renegade armies, will be enough to make them viable in a competitive setting.  I really do not have a solid grasp on the competitive scene in 8e at all.  But they certainly look like they'd be worth a try.

 

Huron looks really nice to me.  His aura change could be seen as a downgrade depending on what you run him with, and his warlord trait isn't the best, but the new psychic powers are a big boost to him (even if he can't be marked, there are several options worth considering, including stripping the invulnerable save off an enemy character before he lays into them), and he likes the renegade tactic, since he can move, advance, fire his flamer, and charge all in the same turn.  And that extra command point won't go to waste with all the new stratagems.  Again, he's not Abby, but he is a lot cheaper.

[Panzer]

Honestly, who cares about the competetive setting when talking about using a specific set of Legion rules. Especially the Renegade ones who don't even have their own Stratagems, Relics or Warlord Traits and as such are more limited by default already.

Isn't it enough if the rules provide enough so you can play your favorite Renegade warband in casual/semi-competetive matches without being terrible? In a REALLY competetive environment you just take an army with a custom color scheme and whatever Legion rules are best and call them a successor/warband/whatever of Legion X.

[Prot]

Well I guess the competitive aspect is a very individual question, but it should at least be part of the conversation. For some people this has no consequences but for some like myself I will frequently play in an ITC environment even if just to practice for a local ITC event. I know some people are adverse to this but that's why I like to talk about the hobby, painting, the background stuff as well.

 

The personal part of this question for me is that I prefer the flexibility to turn it up if I have to and in the odd ITC event (if I go this year to any, I'm not liking what I'm seeing so far) that I can indeed give the filthy Xenos a run this edition.

 

- Huron is looking a little a better value. Perhaps his flexibility is his best feature.... although I was creating an unbreakable Culist Horde around him it appears that won't work anymore but his re roll aura will help with those assaults but he'll need a ride.

 

- I was using Warp time on my Termie Sorc but a jump Sorc with the Warp Talons sounds good too. I have 8 Warp talons and 7 Raptors.

 

- I guess my possessed might actually see some work now... spawn can't take advantage of this can, they?

 

- what about Mutilators? Still bad? Maybe a good body guard for Huron? ( yes I have a box almost completely painted. Lol )

[Sception]

spawn don't get legion traits, no.  They aren't infantry, bikes, or helbrutes.

[Khornestar]

Bikespam with powerfist champs? Dunno, does that sound good? S5 base Berzerkers make me love fists, but S8 with -1 to hit and few attacks might not be worth it.

[Prot]

I think an Exalted champion on a bike with relic axe might help the bikers a lot. World Eaters (I'm assuming can't use the renegade trait?). So bikers still seem really underwhelming. I don't even see loyalists take them unless Dark Angels.

 

Can anyone tell me what Huron's WL trait is?

 

I'm currently trying lists that basically compare head to head with World Eaters, since I believe that is the most comparable ruleset for assault heretics. Now even with the new rules in play I haven't seen WE having a very good go at the shoots meta but it's certainly very early.

[Brother Aiwass]

Huron's is re—roll to hit vs imperials iirc.

[Prot]

Huron's is re—roll to hit vs imperials iirc.

 

0_o. Yeesh.... so take away VotlW and replace it with a mandatory situational WL trait. Sometimes GW... I just want to help you write rules so badly.

 

How about the ability to bring in ONE item from Codex Astartes from a fixed list: Whirlwind, Thunderfire Cannon, Scouts, Speeder variants, a single Drop Pod, etc, etc. All units that have been in the Astartes repertoire for eons. This would be a strong representation of Huron's charismatic influence, and show a more recent defector to the Chaos chapters.