+++ Dark Raiders: Renegade Astartes for 8th +++

[Brother Aiwass]

 

Huron's is re—roll to hit vs imperials iirc.

 

0_o. Yeesh.... so take away VotlW and replace it with a mandatory situational WL trait. Sometimes GW... I just want to help you write rules so badly.

 

How about the ability to bring in ONE item from Codex Astartes from a fixed list: Whirlwind, Thunderfire Cannon, Scouts, Speeder variants, a single Drop Pod, etc, etc. All units that have been in the Astartes repertoire for eons. This would be a strong representation of Huron's charismatic influence, and show a more recent defector to the Chaos chapters.

 

Yeah, that would be ace. I really think they screwed Huron, not super hard, but screwed up nonetheless.

 

"but you can re-roll plasmas" That I don't need. If I want to re-roll plasma I'll take a random lord, thanks. His aura is useless, or, more accurately, well, yeah, useless if you don't take anything else.

 

Against imperials, he can't even buff himself (ok, his WT is better than the aura) with the aura, cultists or zerkers wont benefit as much from his current aura as they did before. He (for, like a month lol) was better for supporting aggressive builds, now he want to sit with fire support (because if you want CQC buffs you need to take a DA & an EC).

 

Is not a "sky is falling" situation for me, but half of the interest I had on RC possible builds had vanished. Is he better than a random Lord? Yes, and is my fault to had walked in the road of disappointment? Yes. 

 

Anyway, we need to adapt to the current state of things, that meaning to pest GW facebook to address this situation :P

[Brother Aiwass]

Anyway, forgive my pessimism.

 

I do think renegades are still great. We can have nice combos with what is leaked for now. Since we're not bound to any god, we can take everything that suit us.

 

For anti-horde (even if there are better option like HB rapiers), a chaos deredeo with MoN so you can cast the -1 to hit spell on it is nice. Or the slaaneshi flamer taxi: a rhino with 2x5 havocs with 1 c-flamer and 4 flamers each. T2 disembark 3", move 6", advance 3,5" (average) then unleash 10D6 autohits, plus another 5D6 from the slaanesh strat (52,5 hits, 35 wounds, 23,3 kills against GEQ). Would carve any blob, and if they are charged, the assaulter needs to take another 10D6 flamer autohits from overwatch.

 

The obvious one is that renegade zerkers are a lot more mobile, which means more threat range, which is great for board control. A stormeagle full of them is going to bring terror in T2, since (AFAIK) it doesn't need to enter hover mode for troops to disembark and has a lot of MOV.

 

Other things I like this WT to work with is a CQC contemptor with either hellflamers or soulburners. Move, advance, fire and charge. That's a big distraction carnifex, and a tough one.

 

Possessed are going to be awesome in a renegade army, and bikers or raptors aswell. High MOV and damage output (not raptors, but they're a support/distraction unit in my mind).

[Lord Ragnarok]

Red Corsairs are my Chaos force of choice. I like playing out of the Maelstrom vs the over used EoT. I've always argued that renegades should be able to use most of the imperial equipment. As maintenance may not be straight forward higher pts cost or restrictions on how many you can take would very appropriate along with trickling restrictions on the chaos side. The marketing side is probably too short sighted to understand how the market it.

[Prot]

Okay so I've been playing with lists since hearing the rumours/leaks. 

 

Basing lists on Huron, and going with the theme of "I'm gonna advance and charge whenever possible", I've been thinking of arming things VERY differently than I currently have them modeled which could be a pain in the warp.

 

My Bikers for instance.I have 6 with 4 meltaguns. I'm thinking 5 with a couple of flamers, and a fist champ. This gives them a lot of damage output in T1, and I understand the bikes went down about 5 points each? Flamers rolling into close combat after a guaranteed first turn 26" move+ 8" Flamer = 34" threat range. That's pretty respectable.

 

Possessed are something I insisted on fielding with my KDK but now I'm thinking of loading them up in a Landraider (or not) and in that case perhaps Fabius Bile becomes a good idea? (Maybe not but he's pretty cheap and not horrible in the army.)

 

I'm thinking of doing dual fist Helbrutes with dual Heavy Flamers.

 

I'm thinking of a Decimator Dread (Helbrute?) with dual Soulburner Petards.

 

And a good sized squad of Warp Talons (another unit I've tried to use over and over since inception.)

 

Cultists will probably be the bulk of the troops because it feels as if most of the stuff that can take advantage of this ability are going to be a bit pricey and have no real shooting ability.

 

Because the army will be advancing... I'm still thinking of Oblits. (yea I'm still fixated on them after all these years).Plus they doubled their some what mediocre shots!!

 

Even considering a Defiler since it went down points (I think). I need something that will take care of my zone with out breaking the bank.

[Khornestar]

Holy :cuss I didn't even consider using flamers after advancing and then charging. Nice, Prot!

 

Must have burning in addition to all the killing and maiming, after all. 

[Prot]

Holy :cuss I didn't even consider using flamers after advancing and then charging. Nice, Prot!

 

Must have burning in addition to all the killing and maiming, after all.

 

Thanks but even a broken clock is right twice a day. We'll see if it's even worth trying. I may have to do some test games before ripping melta's off of bikes and arms off of helbrutes!

[Fallen Dark Angel]

Been stuck in the warp since 3rd and I'm wanting to build a Cypher & Fallen force. 

 

I figured the Imperial keyword would give me space marine toys and things, but I'm also hearing the call of chaos with the Renegade rule for old chaosy times sake.

 

I've been getting into primaris so much, I'm neglecting the chaos marines. Huron and the Red Corsairs are terribly tempting. 

 

Fallen are referred to for their firepower, but it seems renegades are more charge and assault. Would mixing the two types be a good balance or weaken themselves overall?

[The Traitor]

Was going to create this thread but seems I arrived late to the party... First up, I'm going to use Renegade rules because I collect the II Legion and didn't get any rules in the new Codex, so I guess I'll have to use the "leftovers" rules (just kidding, I obviously wasn't expecting lost legion rules and love the new Codex), but I'll omitimos play other legion rules because a) tournaments and b ) I like to play different lists frequently.

 

So once my situation is clear I'll move to the second topic I wanted to raise: every legion thread has a fancy title, so we should have one too, I propose "We are not a Legion, but we're still many - Renegade gathering" or something like that, in reference to the famous biblical daemon and mocking the actual legions in the process, even though it might be too long.

 

Now, to the actual tactics. Our non-legion trait is solid, advancing and charging is similar to adding 3,5" of movement to every assault infantry, bike or helbrute unit at now expense, but it isn't earth-shattering as the +1 attack of the World Eaters or shenanigan-asking as the -1 ld of the Night Lords. Additionally we don't get unique Stratagems, Warlord Tarits or Artifacts and don't unlock cult units as troops. So what is the reason to play renegades appart from fluff? Well, I believe that the answer is versatility. We only get one guideline, "run", which makes us think of fast and close combat oriented lists but sets no real restrictions upon us. Besides legion specific stratagems can be good (World Eaters), but it could also have been bad (Iron Warriors), and we still get the one that gives +1 to wound, which I believe to be the real jewel here. Not getting a cool trait sucks, but the 6+ extra save from the core rulebook is still very good for Daemon Princes, and I guess some of the chaos generic ones will also be fine. We also know that we have non-specific artefacts, but I've only seen the Murder Sword, which I'm not too sold upon, but I guess that at just 4pnts it's somehow good... Has anyone heard of the rest of the generic artefacts and how they are? This leaves us with now cult units as troops, which is the major problem I have with them, as CSM aren't very good and I wouldn't like to run 30 Cultists in all of my games... So I guess I'll have to use Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead Detachment more.

 

For units I think that daemon princes will be a nice option, as an average move of 15,5" is quite big, and will give them some extra manoeuvrability, being able to reach Magnus levels of speed. I'll also be playing Chaos Lords with Combi-Flamer and CC weapon as, as said before, we can run+burn+charge, and I think that is what we should be aiming for. That is why I think that Chosen with combi-flamer and cc weapon on the champion (or Havocs if you're short on points) will be an option worthy of testing, as well as giving a couple of flamers to Bikers, which have been mentioned too in here as an obvious choice. That said, melta guns are also Assault, so a Renegade army lacking anti-armour options could go that way. Then, we get units which only have CC attacks, so they don't care loosing their shooting to running, such as possessed, but what I think I'll use even more are Berzerkers with CS and CA, unless they've received a massive nerf. Mutilators would also fall into this category, but I haven't seen how they've changed, so won't judge them now...

 

Also, how do you think Helbrutes and equivalents are going to fit with renegades? I've seen dual fist dual flamer Helbrutes mentioned here, but are they really effective simply by getting 1d6 of extra movement?

 

Overal I feel our strength comes from versatility and speed, so we should try to make pretty flexible units that play more to the maelstrom mission than to kill the opponent and, even though I enjoy this kind of mobile armies that require some cunning to be played, I don't think if what we get will be enough to allow us to work in that way, or in any other that can rival with the real legions...

[Cryptix]

For a title how about "The Lost and the Forgotten?"

[The Traitor]

For a title how about "The Lost and the Forgotten?"

The Forgotten and the Purged are the lost legions so, even though I like it because of that ;), I think it wouldn't be appropriate (unless it turns out we are all lost legion players who have made some fluff for their legion to survive somehow untill 40k and have decided to use Renegade rules, in which case yes, let's go for that! :P)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

For a title how about "The Lost and the Forgotten?"

The Forgotten and the Purged are the lost legions so, even though I like it because of that , I think it wouldn't be appropriate (unless it turns out we are all lost legion players who have made some fluff for their legion to survive somehow untill 40k and have decided to use Renegade rules, in which case yes, let's go for that! )

 

 

"Betrayers and Betrayed: Renegade Chapters in 8th Edition."

[Brother Aiwass]

Or our legion trait? "Dark Raiders"

 

Whatever the title is, I love the idea of flamer bikes and is not like flamers are super effective, but I think I can get the points to include a unit of them to support my melta termies. I prefer an axe myself instead of a PF because I think that a biker with PF look ridiculous.

 

For the best use of the trait I think rhino zerkers may be the answer, with an average of 19,5" threat range after disembarking (pile out+move+advance+charge). Take 2x9 with axes, one of the units with Huron/DA and the other with an Exalted Chap and you're good to go. Khorne is good.

 

DS 5 meltatermies with 4 axes and a CF, with IoW and a sorc. Warptime, move/advance, prescience and melta stuff and charge. Is going to be nasty.

 

I love me some Slaanesh marks this edition too. 2x5 havocs with flamers and combiflamer champ in a rhino are going to break some faces.

 

Another one (that I'm not going to use... yet) even if this doesn't synergize well with our trait is this:

 

DS 10 Slaanesh terminators with combi plasma, with sorc and lord. Cast FnP, cast prescience, unleash 20 plasma shots (hit on 2+, re-roll 1's), use the lovely slaaneshi strata, unleash 20 plasma shots again (still hit on 2+, re-roll 1's). The killing is going to be legendary, and I think Black Legion brothers would use this a lot.

 

19,4 hits

16 wounds

13,5 dead MEQ

or

10,8 dead TEQ

 

And you can do this twice if you place your unit in rapid fire range of two targets. Yay!

 

Edit: fixing numbers.

[The Traitor]

I like "Dark Raiders" better than "Reavers of the Imperium" but both are fine.

 

I wouldn't take zerkers in Rhino for the simple reason that World Eater ones are so much better, even if they have to disembark a bit closer, +1 attack (actually +2 because BftBG or even +3 if they use their stratagem) is plain better. So I think that to get the edge I'm going to play (or at least try out) Berzerkers on foot. They're slower and more vulnerable but they a) the most important, cost 72 points less b ) only move an average of 2,5" less c) don't provide targets to anti-tank weapons d) are easier to hide and e) don't care for their transport being destroyed (as they have none). I'm not sure if this will be a good idea, but I believe that 6x5 zerker units could cross the board advancing in 2 or 3 turns and, even though some would die, you would have saved 206 points, and each 5 man Berzerker unit with double cc weapons, IoW and power axe on the champion is only 98 points. This overal, makes for a more flexible MSU like unit and, as I said before, I think that is what Renegades are going to be all about. Instead of having to move your units in groups of ten inside the rhino, you could move them separately five by five, hidden if possible, to wherever you want. I know that this will be effective against other assault and short ranged armies, but I'm not sure if it would do the trick against long ranged ones, such as most tau... What do you guys think?

 

Also, thinking about which units would benefit the most from the Renegade traits, I've realised that Sonic Weapons are assault now! This means that Noise Marines also one of the units that can advance+shoot+charge with our trait, and with high rate of fire cover-ignoring weaponry and music of the apocalypse they're a flavourful and useful unit to add to an army. Compared to flamer chosen they are the same in CC and have the same base cost, but flamers cost 5 points more than Sonic Blasters and NM can shoot when they die. Additionally they can get a Doomsiren, which could work pretty well in this build, and cc weapons for the champ, and they get much more range, which we seem to lack in the options that have been mentioned until now... They're also pretty badass fluff-wise and could lead to some awesome conversions :P!

 

At last we have flamer rubricae which have assault weapons too, which are VERY lethal, but also very expensive and a bit slower, so maybe I would actually pay a rhino for them?

 

@Brother Aiwass: I don't know if the Slaanesh 10 combi-plasma Terminator squad with sorcerer and lord will be a good idea, that would be very very very expensive for only 12 models, quite difficult to get 2 units in range, easy to block by your enemy and probably useless after the turn they DS, because the enemy will either disband or kill the unit... Also, how do you get less wounds on TEQ than MEQ with a damage 2 weapon?

 

Edit: just realised you said 10, 8 *dead* TEQ, so that makes more sense...

[Brother Aiwass]

@Traitor

 

I wouldn't go 6x5 zerkers on foot because you're likely to have at least one more unit (HQ), not taking in account if you do take more stuff (that you should, because going pure zerk is better when you're WE), and then is way more likely to go second. And with that small units that can be crippled or outright killed at range before you are able to do anything, isn't anything that I would recommend.

 

You can fit 2x5 zerks in a rhino, so the deploy count would be only 3 units (the rhinos) while you're actually deploying 9 units. Apart from mobility (you don't may even need to move the rhino if you deploy forward enough, just disembark, move, advance and charge), they protect your dudes from being shot to pieces, and they also eat overwatch by charging with them first or may charge different targets to lock them in combat, that if they disengage, cannot shot (unless they are filthy Ultras), or block LOS.

 

Pretty neat stuff those rubrics tho, killer than havocs tbh. May need to toy with them in a list, as they kill outright 10,5 MEQ with 9 warpflamers! They are slower, but the turn they disembark may move 11,5" on average which isn't bad for a slow unit.

 

Edit: Re: Plasma termies.

 

You DS at 9" of your enemies, to be in rapid fire range you need to be within 12". So isn't that hard to be in range of 2 units because that would mean that the enemy units are far than 24" from each others.

 

Not counting HQs, 10 plasma termies with power mauls are 500 points flat if I did the numbers well. With HQ that'll be at the ~740 points mark, You want cheap HQs because 1) they're going to die 2) they're just there to buff the terminators.

 

And after DS they won't be useless, they'll be fire magnets with 2+ 5++ 5+++, 2 wounds each, with a lot of firepower (that you can even warptime them if you have another sorc in your army) with a threat range of 29".

 

Nothing that any worthy opponent would allow to have in their backlines.

[The Traitor]

Hmmm I hadn't taken into account the number of drops... That alone might make the Rhinos worth it. Will have to try both option when I come back from vacation (so many things to test!!!).

About the terminators, I've been using a lot two units pf plasma raptors (two rifles and two pistols on the champ) with l a lord, which work great, but frequently I find myself without a good place to DS them. It is not a matter of units being too separate from each other, but of units worthy of that plasma fury being more than 12" away from a place that you can DS, as each enemy model is the centre of an 18" diameter negation circle. Deep strikers are a good asset to have, but too easily deniable to spend so many points on, in my opinion at least.

 

And yes, flamer rubricae are awesome, and can deal a mortal wound to the nearest enemy, which is also cool. They're an under used unit because they were horrible in last edition, and come by as very expensive, but the new template and AP systems has really benefited them and if you calculate the wounds thry deal per point they're quite above average.

[Brother Aiwass]

Yes, indeed. However I still think that they can do great things. Like blow a land raider and its content, leave a knight with only a handful of wounds remaining, kill Guilliman (can't stress this enough xD), whatever you need to be vaporized. Have to run the numbers for Stormsurges, Monoliths, Repulsors and the like, but I don't think that there are many things in the game that can survive 40 plasma shots.

 

Cheers, snd enjoy your holidays!

[Prot]

Yea I always take vehicles to minimize drops. You need to go first especially against horde armies.

 

I've used flamer Rubricae a lot... I mean a lot, and they are absolutely abysmal in CC, and I think they're too expensive for my lists. They are okay, don't get me wrong, but I see most of my list running to get into CC and having the most trouble accessing anti-vehicle type weapons... Las/melta/missiles, etc.

 

This is why I'm still thinking of giving Oblits a go with double shots. Not because they are good, but they will fit in, and can keep moving and shooting without penalty, plus they are assault weapons.

 

I used a lot of chaos Termies splitting between melta and plasma, but darn they get focused very quickly. I know they can do work, but it's a lot of points. I was using them with Abaddon and overcharging everything....(unless using the combi part which makes them -1 and causes them to over heat on a 2).

 

They often got focused down very quick, because of the threat they represent. That being said I wasn't playing an all out 'run and gun' mentality. But I played my World Eaters quite a bit at the opening of 8th and I don't think sacrificing some specialized shooting is the way to go.... we need it in this type of army to fill holes.

[ChazSexington]

Right now, I'm gonna run an Elites detachment with 3 Helbrutes and Huron. 8"+d6+2d6 charge sounds good to me!

[Prot]

What's the infatuation with slaanesh Termies? My go to has been Khorne for the banner.

 

But yea, I used to split between melta and plasma, but I dunno, plasma might have the edge here... especially without Warp Time.

 

Also I have to retract my dual Fist Helbrute idea. Of all the Helbrute configurations that might just be the worst. I didn't realized it was about 42? Points for the additional Fist for very little gain. The flail might be better. D3 bonus in cc?

[Brother Aiwass]

What's the infatuation with slaanesh Termies? My go to has been Khorne for the banner.

 

But yea, I used to split between melta and plasma, but I dunno, plasma might have the edge here... especially without Warp Time.

 

Also I have to retract my dual Fist Helbrute idea. Of all the Helbrute configurations that might just be the worst. I didn't realized it was about 42? Points for the additional Fist for very little gain. The flail might be better. D3 bonus in cc?

It's just another playstyle. I'm going with 5 khornate meltatermies too.

 

As for the dread, maybe a contemptor instead with dual claws (40 pts each IIRC) with (soulburners) whatever (soulburners) you like (soulburners)?

 

Expensive, yes, but more durable and killy than a brute. Can advance and fire 2D3 mortal wounds at BS 3+, then charge and regain wounds in melee.

[Panzer]

What's the infatuation with slaanesh Termies? My go to has been Khorne for the banner.

 

But yea, I used to split between melta and plasma, but I dunno, plasma might have the edge here... especially without Warp Time.

 

Also I have to retract my dual Fist Helbrute idea. Of all the Helbrute configurations that might just be the worst. I didn't realized it was about 42? Points for the additional Fist for very little gain. The flail might be better. D3 bonus in cc?

The double tap Stratagem for a sweet Plasma alpha strike of course. ^^

Also the possibility of 5+ FnP Termis sounds not too terrible either. :P

[Prot]

Well funny story time....I ordered a Decimator and 2 soulburner petards and the very same week FW released their FAQ and doubled the points of them. Ouch.

 

I don't own a Chaos Contemptor but as far as the Decimator I read it that I could have a Soulburner or a claw for each arm but not both. So I was going to go dual soulburners. I made this decision a long time ago for my Thousand Sons but since this army is big on assault weapons and speed I thought it might work better here.

 

As far as the Slaanesh Termies I'm not up on all the changes so I assume the shoot twice thing is a strategum? And the FnP is the Slaanesh icon?

[Brother Aiwass]

Shot twice is a stratagem which costs 2 CP, the FnP thingy is the slaaneshi psychic power (WC value of 6).

[The Traitor]

@Brother Aiwass: wouldn't a combi-melta be more effective against all of those targets? Also targeting Guilliman isn't that easy, he's a character. And if your opponent sees that kind of thing in reserve he will probably do whatever he can to screen valuable models with more expendable units.

 

@Prot: Melta Bikers would benefit from the legion trait and be a viable anti vehicle solution, and please try the new oblits and tell us about them. Close combat Helbrutes would also work well for this task... And I don't like terminators too much in this edition either, they're very expensive and always end up getting focused or avoided, I prefer to run raptors and Warp Talons as my deep strikers.

 

Slaanesh termies seem to be appearing in many posts do to the new stratagem and psychic power, but I agree with you in that khorne will remain better unless you invest a lot on them (as in Brother Aiwass example), they don't need CP to work and being able to engage units from DS is a key advantage in my option. And Scourge+Fist seems better than double fist for brutes, though you loose a heavy flamer.

 

Decimators and Contemptors are great, usually better than regular Helbrutes in my opinion, and actually can get duplicate arms post FAQ. I once tried two contemptors with claw+chainclaw and dual soulburners and, while they were fine, they got shot down by three missile launcher havoc units before they could do much...

 

@ChazSexington: I still have to try out true brute spam, but it could certainly be an option. However I would try to add contemptors and/or decimators, to add more variety and options while keeping the same theme.

 

Also, do Blood Slaughters get the Helbrute keyword? Because with the auto 6" advance they would be greatly benefited by Dark Raiders...

[Sete]

Whats the Dark Raiders relic?