+++ Dark Raiders: Renegade Astartes for 8th +++

[Prot]

Good find. But if I read the second Chaos handwritten list correctly, then it’s realky the same old Maelific lord spam with Magnus and Brimspam.

 

The first list is arguably ‘CSM’ in principle but it takes (what I’ve considered, contrary to some people) to be a very solid unit and spams it to death, as you noted.

 

So I guess in one sense maybe we could say- Hey it’s great you can make a CSM list that isn’t strongly designed around a big Legion trait. But the bad news is the lists draw on FW sloppy rules which feel on the cusp of being outlawed again if GW doesn’t force them into line.

 

So maybe there positive I can take from that is I can play just about any Legion , including Renegades and do well with 15 Oblits and spam FW or Brimstones. Yay. Lol.

[Panzer]

I agree with you there lol

[ChazSexington]

Good find. But if I read the second Chaos handwritten list correctly, then it’s realky the same old Maelific lord spam with Magnus and Brimspam.

 

The first list is arguably ‘CSM’ in principle but it takes (what I’ve considered, contrary to some people) to be a very solid unit and spams it to death, as you noted.

 

So I guess in one sense maybe we could say- Hey it’s great you can make a CSM list that isn’t strongly designed around a big Legion trait. But the bad news is the lists draw on FW sloppy rules which feel on the cusp of being outlawed again if GW doesn’t force them into line.

 

So maybe there positive I can take from that is I can play just about any Legion , including Renegades and do well with 15 Oblits and spam FW or Brimstones. Yay. Lol.

 

If I remember correctly, the FW Chaos Index was written by none other than Pete Foley, whom is employed by GW. He was at NOVA Open, and was reported as staring intensely and disappointedly at the Malefic Lord spam lists.

 

The CSM codex is balanced internally better than ever, but our Troop choices are mostly pants, unless you sink a lot into trying to make them work, which becomes points inefficient. The Alpha Legion Infiltrating a 40-man Cultist unit isn't bad though - conga line them to prevent Deep Strikers. However, you can also Infiltrate Khorne Berzerkers or Noise Marines and then it's CP inefficient. 

 

The worst mistake is not seeing how what superficially resembles fluffy Legion Tactics translates into crunch. Alpha Legion become the go-to for Noise Marines, Khorne Berzerkers, Obliterators, Havocs, and Dreadnoughts, not the Emperor's Children, World Eaters (though they're not half-bad), and Iron Warriors. I honestly think the 30k rules were much better thought out. Alan Bligh, your absence is felt.  

[ChazSexington]

Some photos of my Red Corsairs, Fallen, and Alpha Legion against the Slaanesh Snacks.

 

 

 

 

First one is Huron, Cypher, and some Fallen being charged (and killed) by Howling Banshees and 2 Warlocks. The Helbrute in the second to last one got butchered by Wraithguard (26 damage!), but was swiftly avenged by his comrade, whom took down 4 Wraithguard. 

[Prot]

Awesome Chaz. Great pics. Did you pull off the win? Great looking army regardless. Personally I love the idea of Cypher hanging out with Huron. I think they'd swap some darn good stories. How is Cypher and pals working in your lists?

Here's my recent update to Huron and I'm finally working on some of the jump pack guys too...

[ChazSexington]

Awesome Chaz. Great pics.  Did you pull off the win? Great looking army regardless. Personally I love the idea of Cypher hanging out with Huron. I think they'd swap some darn good stories. How is Cypher and pals working in your lists?

 

Here's my recent update to Huron and I'm finally working on some of the jump pack guys too...

 

 

 

 

 

I got pummeled - I drew objectives I couldn't possibly do. I still had three Predators and a Sorcerer left at the end.

 

Cypher is doing meh. I might just run him as a Chaos Lord with a bolt pistol and plasma pistol. He won't get the Advance and Shoot thing, but he's also almost 25% cheaper and get summon. As far as the Fallen are concerned, plasma is plasma, so they're solid. They benefit from Prescience and re-rolling ones from Cypher, but there's nothing you couldn't do better with Chosen/Havocs in a Rhino with a cheaper Lord and a Sorcerer. I still don't understand Fallen's battlefield role - they slightly cheaper than Chosen with the same loadout, but can't take Transports or Icons. 

 

The Renegade trait is excellent on Helbrutes, problem is my loadout. I can't fire the multi-melta as the Helbrutes advanced, and their attacks are not maxed CC. One still smashed up 4 Wraithguard in CC after they put 25 wounds on his pal.

 

Huron (and Cypher) gets killed easily by Rangers. T4, W5, 3+/4++ ain't tough. Warptiming a Helbrute is great fun though!

 

I love Warp Talons! I'll post mine once I've replaced one Warp Talon's arm and foot, courtesy of my puppy. I have the bitz now, so I just need to actually paint them. At times I feel there's too much detail - there's so much to highlight! I love your Huron :)

[ChazSexington]

Here's my WiP Black Dragon Librarian who saw the light (which happens to be an eight-pointed star circling in a miasma of purple Warpstuff) turned Red Corsair Sorcerer.

 

 

 

 

Still haven't gotten around to finishing the last foot and arm for the Warp Talons...

[Lords of Preyspire]

Somehow I missed the release of the whole codex and have been using the chaos index! What a numpty.

 

Anyway, I feel fluff wise this is the closest thing I’m going to get for my oracles of change warband so I’m happy to run this for a while.

 

I’m actually adding 5 terminators to my list, anyone have any advice? Also I’m guessing you can’t teleport and advance? I’m only two games in and an still not that familiar with 8th ed.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

That is correct - you can't teleport and advance, as you teleport in at the end of the movement phase (so, after the portion that allows you to move your units).

 

You can still attempt to charge in the charge phase, though you'll need to get a good charge roll.

[Lords of Preyspire]

Thanks for the reply. Yeah, I did some reading after I posted and got a better idea on the movement. Well I’m wanting to drop them in with a sorcerer so that might help with a good warp time roll.

[Flipl8]

This corner of the Chaos forum is a little neglected these days. Thought I'd give it a bump, since this weekend my Red Corsairs are hitting the table for the first time.

 

My list is assault-themed because I want to test out our Dark Raiders trait. I'm guessing my Leviathan with dual claws will get the most use out of the move+advance+charge gimmick. 10 Khorne Berzerkers and an Exalted Champion will be riding in a Storm Eagle--possibly with a 5-man CSM squad with plasma+combi-plas along for the ride, depending on the opponent's AA. Champion is of course armed with the MURDER SWORD.

 

My idea is that these guys will all disembark at the start of my second turn (Storm Eagle is a tough bird and ought to live that long). At the same time, a 5-man squad of Khorne terminators teleport in. With the berzerkers able to move and advance after disembarking, they ought to make their charge easily. The terminators will benefit from Warp Time--either from a Sorcerer or Huron. At about this time, the Leviathan should be making combat as well. Oh, failed to mention: I'll be throwing a Terminator Lord into the mix as well. These guys will all tie up the enemy gun line while my CSM squads secure the midfield.

 

My opponent fields Cadians, and none too creatively. So I'm 98% sure I'm facing a gunline with probably 4 or 5 Russes in support. If I lose, it's going to be because of those. But I'm guaranteed to face lots of infantry, which is sure to be a blast.

 

Anyway. Is anyone finding Huron to be good in 8th? I'm currently debating between him and a good old Sorcerer.

[Prot]

Well I wish you luck. That’s certainly going to be a challenge for you. One of my faves in the Renegade list TS a combo of Slaanesh oblits and Warp Talons. Not being overwatched amd tying up a ton of stuff helps if you get lucky with the charge against Astra.

[ChazSexington]

This corner of the Chaos forum is a little neglected these days. Thought I'd give it a bump, since this weekend my Red Corsairs are hitting the table for the first time.

 

My list is assault-themed because I want to test out our Dark Raiders trait. I'm guessing my Leviathan with dual claws will get the most use out of the move+advance+charge gimmick. 10 Khorne Berzerkers and an Exalted Champion will be riding in a Storm Eagle--possibly with a 5-man CSM squad with plasma+combi-plas along for the ride, depending on the opponent's AA. Champion is of course armed with the MURDER SWORD.

 

My idea is that these guys will all disembark at the start of my second turn (Storm Eagle is a tough bird and ought to live that long). At the same time, a 5-man squad of Khorne terminators teleport in. With the berzerkers able to move and advance after disembarking, they ought to make their charge easily. The terminators will benefit from Warp Time--either from a Sorcerer or Huron. At about this time, the Leviathan should be making combat as well. Oh, failed to mention: I'll be throwing a Terminator Lord into the mix as well. These guys will all tie up the enemy gun line while my CSM squads secure the midfield.

 

My opponent fields Cadians, and none too creatively. So I'm 98% sure I'm facing a gunline with probably 4 or 5 Russes in support. If I lose, it's going to be because of those. But I'm guaranteed to face lots of infantry, which is sure to be a blast.

 

Anyway. Is anyone finding Huron to be good in 8th? I'm currently debating between him and a good old Sorcerer.

 

I find Huron fantastic! He's often been my MvP, mostly for the threat in CC, Warptime/Smite, and Chaos Lord re-rolls. He does everything darn well and is exceptionally good value for points. 

 

My jump pack Sorcerer is coming together, though there's still loads of work to be done. I also made a small start to a test CSM - a Space Wolf turned Red Corsair following the realisation that the Imperium had the cure for the Canis Helix all along (ref. Primaris).

 

[Flipl8]

@Prot I was considering some warp talons actually. They seem to lend themselves to Dark Raiders really well. How do you usually equip yours? I know they can be a real points sink so I'm curious about their efficiency versus, say, Berzerkers.

 

@Chaz Man Huron does sound excellent now. Maybe I ought to swap out my Termie Lord for him. Your sorcerer looks sweet too. Loving that old school jump pack. And fur just works really well for Red Corsairs, somehow.

[The Traitor]

Warp Talons have proved to be too expensive for me against most targets, through they can save you against armies like Tau or gunline Astra Militarum, so they could be useful for you, they have to take double lightning claws and they need a jump Sorcerer with them to work properly, as they need the warptime power to make the charge reliably. However I think they're better fit for armies like WE, renegade trait isn't that good for them (usually 12" is enough after coming from reserve), and ten of them with a jump sorc is a big amount of points for a tie-up unit...

As for your list, it looks fun, the zerkers with the champ are solid, though I haven't tried the storm eagle. Huron is an overall good character, bringing a bit of everything to the table, though being on foot hurts him.

Also the leviathan shooting usually is great, so you might be loosing too much running him with double claws to benefit the most from the Renegades trait.

[Flipl8]

Gah, opponent cancelled on me. I'll take my boys to a local hobby store this week and report how the game goes.

 

@traitor Shooty leviathan is almost definitely the better way to go. I'm just trying to keep it WYSIWYG. I think I'll buy some ranged weapons for it next go-around.

[ChazSexington]

"I ask not for forgiveness, nor understanding, just for my life, oh mighty Tyrant of Badab..."

 

My Black Dragon Librarian who moved up in the world to the rank of Red Corsair Sorcerer. Pics are before I fixed some last details.

 

 

 

Got my bottom spanked more thoroughly than a visit to Castle Anthrax would've gotten me. That the IG can order their infantry to fire after falling back is NASTY and meant my glorious Warp Talon and Daemonette charges (FRFSRF) had casualties similar to Verdun. It was the Charge of the Light Brigade into a volcano. 

 

However, the highlight is that we can Advance our Warp Talons when we Warptime them, meaning an average of 15.5," followed by a charge thanks to our Legion (which should be Warband) trait.

 

Here my Warp Talons come down. My opponent's Primaris denies my Warptime, but I still get the charge off. 

 

My Sorcerer watches as the Warp Talons clear out some fleshy Guardsmen. 

 

Seconds later, my Warp Talons are turned into red mist.

 

[The Traitor]

Yeah, I need more testing on them, but I still have mixed feelings about them. They're so useful against gunline which don't have a way to fall back and fire, but their price is too high against anything else, so I've been playing most of my lists without them...

[ChazSexington]

Yeah, I need more testing on them, but I still have mixed feelings about them. They're so useful against gunline which don't have a way to fall back and fire, but their price is too high against anything else, so I've been playing most of my lists without them...

 

Getting to the bloody things is pretty darn hard at times. IG players that deploy properly are so hard to shift. If I had another 5 Warp Talons, it might help. 

 

So far, my ideas for killing gunlines with Warp Talons require:

• Fiends of Slaanesh (so enemy models can't fall back)
• Renegade Marauder sniper teams to kill company and platoon commanders
• Gift of Chaos/Infernal Gaze on them. 

[The Traitor]

Actually renegade marauders might be a great idea, snipers is one of the things I feel Chaos is missing as in my store leagues they don't allow FW, but if they did I would probably add some with so many support characters out there. Fiends of Slaanesh can't make flyers not fall back, and are so fragile that if you don't manage them properly the enemy will kill them before they get anywhere so, while useful, you can't rely on them to do that. Gift on chaos is too short ranged and Infernal gaze doesn't has enough damage output.

 

What I'm going to do to counter gunlines is ally a 30 bloodletter bomb to my list so that they fall in and tie everything in combat (and probably kill it too, bloodletter are insane) and so I'm only left to deal with the inner layers of the gunline.

 

Also, the other day I won against Astra militarum by blowing his tanks up with my deep striking double tapping oblits and charging his infantry with my zerkers. He focussed on taking the oblits down with his Leman russes, but I deployed them in cover so they saved on a 3+ even with the -2AP, while the infantry shots bounced off my Rhinos and my zerkers charged the turn they got out. Probably would have had a harder time against a harder list, but we were both playing pretty relaxed.

[ChazSexington]

Actually renegade marauders might be a great idea, snipers is one of the things I feel Chaos is missing as in my store leagues they don't allow FW, but if they did I would probably add some with so many support characters out there. Fiends of Slaanesh can't make flyers not fall back, and are so fragile that if you don't manage them properly the enemy will kill them before they get anywhere so, while useful, you can't rely on them to do that. Gift on chaos is too short ranged and Infernal gaze doesn't has enough damage output.

 

What I'm going to do to counter gunlines is ally a 30 bloodletter bomb to my list so that they fall in and tie everything in combat (and probably kill it too, bloodletter are insane) and so I'm only left to deal with the inner layers of the gunline.

 

Also, the other day I won against Astra militarum by blowing his tanks up with my deep striking double tapping oblits and charging his infantry with my zerkers. He focussed on taking the oblits down with his Leman russes, but I deployed them in cover so they saved on a 3+ even with the -2AP, while the infantry shots bounced off my Rhinos and my zerkers charged the turn they got out. Probably would have had a harder time against a harder list, but we were both playing pretty relaxed.

 

Aye, I think it's just the point level I was playing at wasn't any good (500pt). I ended up coming at him piecemeal, as I couldn't charge him with both Warp Talons and Daemonettes in the same turn, and he just obliterated them as they came in. 

 

I meant all of it as a combination btw. With regards to the Fiends, getting a Herald of Slaanesh with Warptime would help. Warptime them in as they're summoned, and just tie up something that isn't a flyer. My jump pack Sorcerer could manage a Gift of Chaos - he moves an average of 15.5 and can still charge. Infernal Gaze is still just to reduce the wounds on some Company or Platoon Commanders, which can then be killed off by snipers.

[The Traitor]

You can't warp time daemons nor use the power with them, so that won't fix fiends... Also summoning isn't the ideal way to get units near the enemy, if you want to maximise the usefulness of Slaanesh fiends I would run many units of 1, use their high movement (14"?) and hide them out of LoS thanks to their relatives small size.

500 points is certainly not a good game size for CSM, our units are too expensive for that unless you run a cultist bomb or something...

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I've been running the following list as renegades with poor results vs shooty but great results vs mixed armies.

 

Battaltion

HQ

Daemon Prince with dual claws, slaanesh, delightful agonies

Sorc with Jump Pack, Force Axe, prescience/warptime

Exalted Champ, plasma pistol, The Murder Sword

 

Troops

60 cultists, close combat in 3 groups

 

Elites

5 possessed, slaanesh

5 possessed, slaanesh

 

Heavy Support

Oblits, slaanesh

 

I've faced Imperial Fists twice and lost both games convincingly.  I just run out of steam and cant get stuck in with enough.  The second game was very close though... the dice gods could have given me the game!

I lost horribly to Tau but I got list tailored as brutally as this game allows.  

 

Things I've noticed about Renegades.  

 

1. If you design the list for close combat (you should) you need a shooting element that is very powerful.  In the CSM codex there is only one answer as far as I'm concerned, Obliterators.  These guys need to be removing key models on turn 1.  If you are NOT removing models, you arent doing it right.  I've been buffing mine up with feel no pain and prescience and always having them land in cover.  

 

2. I've also noticed that a close combat army needs a turn 1 deployment zone distraction which my list does not have.  Someone else in this thread mentioned a bloodletter bomb and I think that is great.  Its cheap, it can do truck loads of damage, and it has a big foot print.  I will be adding a daemons patrol detachment with Skulltaker and 30 bloodletters and using it to buy time for my other stuff to advance up the table.

 

3. Cultists with reroll buffs are dangerous.  I've had 14 cultists put 4 wounds on Draigo.  I've had 20 cultists take out 4 sternguard showing up on the board edge using tide of traitors.  I've also had tons of command points in my games running them with a double battalion a few times.  

[ChazSexington]

You can't warp time daemons nor use the power with them, so that won't fix fiends... Also summoning isn't the ideal way to get units near the enemy, if you want to maximise the usefulness of Slaanesh fiends I would run many units of 1, use their high movement (14"?) and hide them out of LoS thanks to their relatives small size.

500 points is certainly not a good game size for CSM, our units are too expensive for that unless you run a cultist bomb or something...

Ah, true, kept thinking Daemons had access to it. And I agree with the rest. Normally, I run Alpha Legion with a Cultist bomb, but that would be downright mean in 500pt game in a casual Escalation League ;p

[The Traitor]

@SanguinaryGuardsmen: That seems like the kind of list Alpha Legion would play, I think you're not maximising the renegade rules with it. For starters, it makes little sense to play 3x20 Cultists instead of 6x10, as we do the want to buff them with VotLW, or infiltrate them, and you're saying you're casting delightful agonies and prescience on the oblits, while 6 units allow you to get more objectives and forces your opponent to split fire, while protecting you more from morale. The only reason to play bigger units for us would be if you were using tide of traitors, and then I would play a unit of 40 and two units of 10. Also, I'm not a fan of possessed, zerkers in Rhinos always work out better for me, and I still need to try out CC plague marines. I do agree completely with your reflection on oblits though. Overall, I would split the Cultists and probably take less of them, while taking squads in Rhinos which benefit more from the run+charge dinamic (disembark 3, then move 6, run D6 and charge 2d6 makes for an average threat range of 19,5" when you disembark).

And yes, I think bloodletter bomb is an awesome ally, you basically insert a huge threat range in your enemy's face. I would recommend a regular herald instead of skulktaker though, with S6 you wound T3 on a 2+, while bloodletters are already hitting on a 2+ when they're 20+... Also, Skarbrand. He's expensive at 360 but oh my god his buff is too awesome, and actually affects your Cultists too.