Balanced List?

[RG-Predators]

I've always tried to maintain a balanced list, but still make it "fluffy" in some ways. This is my 8th Edition attempt at that. What are your thoughts? All criticism/advice is welcomed.

 

+ HQ +

 

Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 172pts]: Force stave, Storm shield

 

+ Troops +

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Bolt pistol

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. 3x Scout w/Shotgun

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 96pts]s

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. 3x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 3x Sniper rifle

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Bolt pistol

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. 3x Scout w/Shotgun

 

10x Tactical Squad [9 PL, 143pts]

. 8x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

 

10x Tactical Squad [9 PL, 130pts]

. 9x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

5x Terminator Assault Squad [12 PL, 260pts]: Teleport Homer

. Terminator Sergeant

. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

. 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

10x Assault Squad [11 PL, 182pts]: Jump Pack

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat shield, Power maul

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

5x Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

 

Predator [9 PL, 192pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

++ Total: [110 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

The idea is to have the 2 Scouts Squads with Shotguns in the opponents face, the Sniper Squad picking off characters, My Lib with my Assault Terms teleporting in, Shrike deep striking with the Assault Squad, both 10- man Tacts combat squaded, half of each squad in Razorbacks for maneuverability and objective holding. The Predator, Devs, and Dread taking out big targets.

[Damo1701]

The list seems fairly solid, and, at 16 Drops, looks like it could leave the FIrst Turn somewhat up in the air, depending on who you play against.

 

Remember, each combat squad is a separate drop, dropping half with a razorback will reduce you to 14 drops.

 

If you can, drop the missile launcher on the sniper scouts, for a sniper rilfe, and get a cherub for the devastators.  Firing twice with a Lascannon at BS2+ in a turn could be the difference between destroying a target and having to take fire from elsewhere.

 

The scouts with Shotguns seem to be a bit redundant with a Heavy Bolter in the mix, IMHO.  Either have them all with shotguns, for a Run + Shoot action, or, give them boltguns to pair with the heavy bolter to ward off light-medium infantry.

 

That's what I would do, but some interesting combinations there.

[RG-Predators]

You're definitely right about the First Turn. I've had to seize in order to go first most of my games.

 

I definitely get what you're saying about the snipers.

 

The whole point with the shotgun squads is to: Deploy 9" from enemy, move in to get the +1 to weapon strength, now firing 13 S5 shots per squad, then assault as many units possible to tie-up the enemy for a turn. But that only works if I go first, so I might need to think about the bolter option. Thanks for the input!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 Criticisms/Suggestions

 

1. Assault Marines suck for their cost.  Assault marines are so bad in fact I cant really think of anything else worse in the marine codex for comparable points.  I've run a 10 man squad of assault marines for 8 games in 8th and they have done precisely nothing of note in any game.  When they charge they dont do much.  When they get shot at they melt.  When they shoot nothing much happens.  And they cant hold objectives as well as tacticals, scouts, or intercessors.  Giving them flamers, plasma pistols, or close combat gear on the sarge is a newb trap.  Trust me, I got trapped.  Is it really worth nearly 200 points for a what is basically a delivery system for 1 close combat weapon on the sarge or 2 special weapons?  Hell no!

 

The Simple Fix: Make that assault squad into vanguard vets.  The price is similar but you get double the attacks and more options.  You will kill way more stuff with double the attacks.  

 

The sexy Fix: Primaris Reivers.  2 wounds, 3 attacks, skull helmets.  Do it.

 

2. Deep Striking Terminators dont do much:

 

I'm  not convinced that deep striking terminators are viable atm   I've played them in 8 games also and they are not really worth 260 points + libby support.  If your idea is to deep strike them in and casting veil of time for charge rerolls you will run into some problems.  Firstly, your guys might not have an optimal target to charge.  THSS terminators are not good in combat against soft targets.  Sure you will win but it will be slow going because you only hit on 4s and have a paltry 11 attacks.  On average you are only killing 5 guardsmen a turn with that.  Secondly, aside from veil of time, the libby doesnt really offer much in the way of killing power to your terminators.  Space marines psychic buffs arent that good for close combat and you can only cast veil of time once.  So what will happen is that you buff your terminators who charge something they arent good at killing and your libby is left in a vulnerable position.  The next turn... all your deepstrikers get killed.  The ideal situation for assault terminators is a turn 1 charge into a knight or a land raider.  No intelligent opponent will allow that.  

 

The Fix(maybe):  Drop the terminator library and use a jump pack chaplain.  Then use Strike from the Shadows on your terminators and the chaplain.  This solves the problem of getting off your charge and buffs your guys with the chaplain's reroll aura.  Also, since you used SfTS you get your movement phase turn a 9 inch charge into a 4 inch charge.  You also solved your problem of your support character getting stranded.  On top of all of that... your chaplain will massacre units that THSS terminators arent too good at killing efficiently.  You even might consider giving your chaplain a relic such as the Raven's Fury to prevent overwatch or the armour.   indomitus.  This setup should be superior for first turn charges than using a librarian.  

 

The Super Fix:  Replace your 400 points of terminators+librarian with 2 stormtalon gunships with lascannons and rek face.  

[RG-Predators]

Now that I think about it, my Assault Squad hasn't done anything of significance in the few games I've played so far. I will definitely look into the Vanguards.

 

I've always thought about bringing in a Chap, but for some reason can't let go of the Lib. I'll consider it in my next list and maybe work them both in or finally make the cut. Thanks for the suggestions.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

I personally feel there are two good reasons to run SM Librarians now:

 

1) Running multiples for the new Conclave Stratagem can be a great way to get access to consistent (albeit not cheap) mortal wounds.

 

2) Null Zone is probably our strongest power, and as the meta develops, it may prove a valuable tool in the Raven Guard arsenal for decapitating uber-tough targets on the Alpha (For when you really need to blow up Bobby G on Turn 1).

 

As it stands now, taking them for anything else is just a waste of points (sadly)

 

What SG said is ultimately sound advice. Chaplain is the most efficient in terms of buffs/cost ratio, otherwise just continue to stuff Captains into your list for that flexibility.

 

As far as Terminators go, I think that there are basically better units that do more damage for less points in each role (Vanguards for assault, Aggressors for Shooting). However, if I was committed to running Termies, I would run the Tartaros variant, equipping them with Storm Bolters and a mix of Lightning Claws/Chainfists, with a Plas Blaster on the sergeant and an autocannon. I would drop them on my opponents flank that I am already applying pressure to with other SFTS units and use them like an achor to reinforce that front (preferably parked on an objective in my opponents deployment zone). Set your expectations low and put them in the most advantageous situation imaginable, and you won't be that disappointed.

 

Assault Marines are sadly, terrible, and have been for some. While I am loathe to wreck your "drop count" to edge out going first, the only real way to use them in my humble opinion, is to take 5 man units with plasma and drop them behind enemy lines and harass units/score maelstrom cards with them. Cheap, effective, fast, but weak. Expecting Assault marines to actually kill something in assault is heartbreak waiting to happen.

[RG-Predators]

You guys are making a strong case. I really appreciate the advice.

[ONDIG]

Forget all you know of assault Marines as laid out in the fluff!The unit that you want to assault the hard targets w/ is vanguard veterans. I to have felt the heartbreak and hair pulling frustration of attempting to run assault Marines as depicted in the 5th edition codex. They require finesse and patience to be practical.

1.Capitalize on their speed and alternate deployment.Use them to steal unguarded Objectives(Maelstrom)

2.Use them to eliminate understrength units.Enemy snipers, Devastators, cultists or other Objective camping vermin! Do not believe the hype of glorious charges against insurmountable odds they are to fragile(tac Marines w/ pistols and Chainsword?) for that.that is the Vanguard's duty.Think of them as coyotes w/ wings using superior numbers and surprise to weed out the weak!

3.Skirmishers/Counter assault .Keep them in cover behind valued assets Rhino,Predator and use them to halt those attempting to assault your precious vehicles!Keep them off the table/in cover near your own Objective campers or Snipers .

4.Buff the assault!W/ Shrike now able to ignore overwatch the humble assault Marines may finally be able to restore some of their honor re enforcing the Chapter Masters assault or absorbing overwatch themselves so the Vanguard can do their thing unscathed.

This is how you deploy your assault Marines.

[seriade]

You could drop the terminators for a squad of Aggressors struck from the shadows to provide close support for the scouts without the need to wait for the strike and if you know you have the first turn you can have them in position to deliver a massive torrent of fire.  As some have said the assault squad may be questionable have you considered the new reivers with grapnels they can come from behind or with grav chutes deep strike in support of the vanguards or the scouts as needed.  You can then give the librarian a jump pack and have him support shrike.  This should also free up enough points to allow you to take a lieutenant as well to supplement the horde you will have up the table.

Edited August 19, 2017 by seriade

[Jacques Corbin]

Been enjoying my Lieutenant with Jump Pack, MC Boltgun, and Teeth of Terra. He is a bargain, rerolling 1s to wound is great, and he goes well with a Chaplain or Captain. I want to give him a brother with Primarch's Wrath and a Chainsword to babysit my firebase. Lascannon Devastators greatly benefit from rerolling 1s to wound, and it does not hurt for Sniper Scouts either. I also have a Whirlwind, which my Thunderfire Cannon and Techmarine Gunner hide behind. I want to add a Venerable Dreadnought w/ Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher for additional support/air defence. Hitting Fliers on a 3+ is great! I mist just drop the Whirlwind for the Dreadnought, as our Chapter Tactics benefit him, and not the Whirlwind.

 

I am also considering adding Scout Bikers to my list, despite the fact that they compete for Fast Attack slots with Assault Marines.

 

I have 2 Ironclads, and let me tell you, they do some work! Our CT, plus smoke Launchers on turn 1, gives them nice breathing room to advance, or it forces the enemy to move. Emperor forbid my opponent tries to overcharge his Plasma when firing at it. It takes a 4+ to wound after a -2 to hit, so a 1, 2, or 3 kills the firer. Melta and Grav are both short range, and not guaranteed to put either of them down. The difference between S4 wounding on 5+, versus needing a 6, is very noticeable too.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I've always tried to maintain a balanced list, but still make it "fluffy" in some ways. This is my 8th Edition attempt at that. What are your thoughts? All criticism/advice is welcomed.

 

+ HQ +

 

Kayvaan Shrike [8 PL, 150pts]

 

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 172pts]: Force stave, Storm shield

 

+ Troops +

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Bolt pistol

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. 3x Scout w/Shotgun

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 96pts]s

. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. 3x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 3x Sniper rifle

 

5x Scout Squad [6 PL, 65pts]

. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Bolt pistol

. Scout w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

. 3x Scout w/Shotgun

 

10x Tactical Squad [9 PL, 143pts]

. 8x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun

 

10x Tactical Squad [9 PL, 130pts]

. 9x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

 

+ Elites +

 

Dreadnought [7 PL, 145pts]: Missile launcher, Twin lascannon

 

5x Terminator Assault Squad [12 PL, 260pts]: Teleport Homer

. Terminator Sergeant

. . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

. 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

10x Assault Squad [11 PL, 182pts]: Jump Pack

. 7x Space Marine

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Combat shield, Power maul

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

. Space Marine w/Special Weapon

. . Plasma Pistol & Chainsword: Plasma pistol

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

5x Devastator Squad [8 PL, 165pts]

. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

 

Predator [9 PL, 192pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

 

+ Dedicated Transport +

 

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

Razorback [5 PL, 117pts]: Storm bolter, Twin lascannon

 

++ Total: [110 PL, 1999pts] ++

 

The idea is to have the 2 Scouts Squads with Shotguns in the opponents face, the Sniper Squad picking off characters, My Lib with my Assault Terms teleporting in, Shrike deep striking with the Assault Squad, both 10- man Tacts combat squaded, half of each squad in Razorbacks for maneuverability and objective holding. The Predator, Devs, and Dread taking out big targets.

 

Kudos to you for bringing a balanced TAC list. 

 

If I may give a suggestion to free up more points for either more terminators are some other unit, I would suggest that the Assault Squads be kept to a minimum yet maxed out with special weapons. Meaning Sergeant with combi weapon and 2 special weapons of your choice. Use them as a very cheap and viable alpha strike to weaken if not outright kill priority targets. The freed up points can be used to purchase more special weapons for your tac squad.

 

Overall, your army shooting power increases without too much of a decrease in close combat. Assault squads aren't good at killing in melee, but they're certainly excellent in tying up units that you need tied up. And if they shoot at them, they're wasting their firepower on 5 humble marines.

 

remember to make use of the 12" -1 hit chapter tactic. For Melta weapons, you have a 24" threat range, jumping 12" and then melta their butts.

[Shadow Captain Vyper]

Assault Squads cannot have special weapons. That FAQ/Errata change pertains to Blood Angels only. They can have the standard Plasma Pistols or Flamers (with a Combi on the Sergeant). Unfortunately not Plasma Guns or Melta Guns on our ASMs.

 

That being said, I agree, ASMs are best suited to be in 5-man squads, max out your ranged options (3 x PP or 2 x Flamer), and use them to harass a flank/tie up fire support units that are bad in CC.

 

*edit* to reflect change in an error I made

Edited August 29, 2017 by ltvyper

[Claws and Effect]

Or feed them to your wife's Nids in my case ;)

[Kasper_Hawser]

Assault Squads cannot have special weapons. That FAQ/Errata change pertains to Blood Angels only. They can have the standard Plasma Pistols or Flamers (with a Combi on the Sergeant). Unfortunately not Plasma Guns or Melta Guns on our ASMs.

 

That being said, I agree, ASMs are best suited to be in 5-man squads, max out your ranged options (3 x PP or 2 x Flamer), and use them to harass a flank/tie up fire support units that are bad in CC.

 

*edit* to reflect change in an error I made

 

Eh?!?!?! When did this happen? Oh my goodness, I totally missed this change! That kinda sucks. 

 

Really strange. I thought I may have done my Sky Claws (Space Wolves Assault Squads are essentially newbs given a jump pack and told to try not to die) wrongly, but my Sky Claws still have the special weapons option of flamer, melta and plasma, albeit at BS 4+. To find the veteran or experienced battle brothers not having the option is...... very strange. Then again, Sky Claws don't have the giant eviscerator which would be more useful since they get a +1 attack on the charge due to being ...... well, hot blooded newbs.

 

I revise my opinion and suggest you remove the Assault Squads and replace with Vanguards with lightning claws. They can either deepstrike together with the terminators and Shrike or placed on the board as a rapid reaction force. The terminators should be aimed at High Toughness/high armour targets, whereas the Vanguards should be used against basic infantry units or hordes. However, the vanguards can be a bit more independent, the terminators really need the rerolls from Shrike to hit their targets.

 

One last thing, your last tactical squad i just noticed had only bolters. I suggest get rid of 1 guy to get a plasma gun or 3 guys to get plasma gun AND combi plasma on sergeant.

[Claws and Effect]

I'm using an assault squad purely to fill the 3rd FA requirement for an Outrider detachment. 2 Land Speeder Tempests and a jump chaplain are the rest of it.

 

10 man Tactical Squad with just bolters sounds like objective campers to me. Can combat squad and force your opponent to spend a turn removing them instead of shooting other stuff.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Claws and Effect