Index Astartes: Denizens of the Deep

Commissar Molotov · October 2, 2017

Perhaps consider it this way.

What is it you like about having a Chapter that is resolutely committed to the Imperial Cult?

What is it you like about having a Chapter that incorporates elements of the Cthulhu mythos? (What are the specific elements of the Cthulhu mythos you wish to incorporate into your Chapter?)

What is it you like about having a Chapter that is obsessed with its genetic purity?

What is it you like about having a Chapter created in the Sentinel Founding?

What is it you like about having a Chapter on a water world?

What is it you like about having a Chapter built around a crashed Space Hulk?

If you put your IA in a Word document and started deleting sections, which would be the last key sections, words, phrases or concepts that you would keep above all else? These will be the critical core of your concept.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Commissar Molotov

Minigiant · October 2, 2017

Okay I can work with these a bit more, thank you. (Put them in a different order)

What is it you like about having a Chapter that incorporates elements of the Cthulhu mythos? (What are the specific elements of the Cthulhu mythos you wish to incorporate into your Chapter?)

Arguably I believe this is the most important element because well I am effectively writing a crossover. Now it is also important to acknowledge I do not necessarily want the Old One Cthulhu in 40k. What I am after is Lovecraftian

Lovecraftian can best be described in 6 points (paraphrasing to fit into 40k universe)

1. Humanity's insignificant place in the universe

2. Horror being more than just the elements of blood, bones, or corpses

3. Antiquarian writing style

- (This is what determined me using the High Gothic name just as Astra Characradons)

4. heroes tend to be socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.

- (Hero in this sense is a loose term, I consider all Space Marines to be heroes)

5. Helplessness and hopelessness. All victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it.

6. Unanswered questions. Characters rarely if ever fully understand what is happening to them, and often go insane if they try.

7. Ones Sanity is fragile and vulnerability. Unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover. The strain of trying to cope, as Lovecraft often illustrates, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.

8.Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

Perhaps consider it this way.

What is it you like about having a Chapter that is resolutely committed to the Imperial Cult?

I honestly thought this was a good hook, drawn from the H.P Lovecraft quote

“Bunch together a group of people deliberately chosen for strong religious feelings, and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities expressed in crime, perversion, and insanity.”

I thought this was a good way of combining the elements of Lovecraftian and Grimdark, as I consider Grimdark

Protagonists have to choose between good and evil, and are all "just as lost as we are". That transforms into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile", as well has having the effect of absolving the protagonists from moral responsibility

What is it you like about having a Chapter that is obsessed with its genetic purity?

I see it as a result of Imperial Cult extremism

What is it you like about having a Chapter created in the Sentinel Founding?

From what I can see, a majority of Canon Sentinel chapters are at least on the surface, followers of the Imperial Creed. Marines Errant, Steel Cobras who fell for depraved religious practices.

What is it you like about having a Chapter on a water world?

What is it you like about having a Chapter built around a crashed Space Hulk?

I am not set on it being a Water World and would rather it wasn't built around a crashed Space hulk, I knew a water world is a good reason to explain the Octopus chapter symbol. The world development came from a re-imagination of Innsmouth meets Waterworld.

Plus, I really want Guardian Tridents

If you put your IA in a Word document and started deleting sections, which would be the last key sections, words, phrases or concepts that you would keep above all else? These will be the critical core of your concept.

I really do appreciate you asking this even though I hate the answer. I will be deleting most of the 15000 words.

If it were me I'd consider the 'Deep' aspect of the Chapter - what are the depths to which this Chapter is willing to sink in order to complete its mission?

I have been giving this one question even more thought, and I think the trouble I am having with it is

what are the darkest depths they can go without being chaos?

how do you write it? because as soon as anyone touches anything not 'superhero' moment people cry/assume chaos

Bjorn Firewalker · October 2, 2017

The Denizens of the Deep need ONE goal, for which they will do anything, sacrifice EVERYTHING, to achieve. For most Space Marine Chapters, it is protection of the Imperium the Emperor created. For the Relictors, it is destroying Chaos- for which they are willing to use Chaos-tainted relics to "fight fire with fire," potentially tainting themselves in the process. For the Dark Angels, it is keeping secret the fact many of their number became "Fallen Angels" and rebelled against their rightful leaders (the Lion and the Emperor).

The goals themselves draw lines the Chapter will not cross. In the Dark Angels' case, they will not tolerate other Imperial citizens viewing them in the same light as Horus and those following in his footsteps, i.e., the Fallen Angels; this prevents the Dark Angels from turning to Chaos, though it certainly doesn't prevent them from killing innocent people to eliminate witnesses. (The fact the Relictors' actions contradict their goal and make it impossible to achieve, is why few fans represent them. We don't like it when OUR armies and OUR heroes fail to achieve their goals.)

For what goal will a Denizen of the Deep commit what others will view as treason, and how will your Marine justify it? If you can answer that, you're all set. (For comparison, the Soul Drinkers justify their turning renegade, by claiming they fight for the Emperor's ideals, which the Imperium itself has betrayed.)

Edited October 2, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

Commissar Molotov · October 2, 2017

Arguably I believe this is the most important element because well I am effectively writing a crossover. Now it is also important to acknowledge I do not necessarily want the Old One Cthulhu in 40k. What I am after is Lovecraftian Lovecraftian can best be described in 6 points (paraphrasing to fit into 40k universe) 1. Humanity's insignificant place in the universe2. Horror being more than just the elements of blood, bones, or corpses3. Antiquarian writing style- (This is what determined me using the High Gothic name just as Astra Characradons) 4. heroes tend to be socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.- (Hero in this sense is a loose term, I consider all Space Marines to be heroes) 5. Helplessness and hopelessness. All victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it. 6. Unanswered questions. Characters rarely if ever fully understand what is happening to them, and often go insane if they try. 7. Ones Sanity is fragile and vulnerability. Unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover. The strain of trying to cope, as Lovecraft often illustrates, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold. 8.Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

In a lot of ways, the Warhammer 40,000 universe features a lot of these aspects already - it's simply down to you to emphasise them. Whilst Humanity is/was a dominant force in the galaxy, the Imperium is in decline and the average human is insignificant. The symbolism of the Astronomican shows this, with thousands being sacrificed every day just so the Emperor can be sustained. The Imperium is built upon blood, and sustained by bloodshed. There is very little that a single man can do to change their destiny or to alter the galaxy around them. The 40k universe also features a great deal of horror. Existential horrors given flesh, even. Our hopes, our fears, our dreams and desires can consume us in a literal - as well as metaphorical - sense. This is a universe where we all have souls, and those souls are in constant danger. Equally, the Space Marine Chapters are introspective and withdrawn. There are few who can understand what it means to be a warrior of the Adeptus Astartes - they fight to preserve a humanity they themselves will never truly possess. That post-human nature is something that I feel the works of Aaron Dembski-Bowden show very well. As for hopelessness? Well, that fatalism can certainly be an archetype of the Astartes - Humanity is doomed, and the actions of its greatest heroes only serve to stave off that darkness for as long as possible. Even just that passage helps illustrate ideas that could go well with a Chapter of the Astartes. Reclusive, withdrawn, taciturn. Scholarly; grappling with something far larger than themselves. I imagine Librarians gazing into the abyss, scrying and trying to make sense of the truth as they can. The warp already teems with the sorts of consciousnesses that would be compared with the Elder Ones.

I honestly thought this was a good hook, drawn from the H.P Lovecraft quote “Bunch together a group of people deliberately chosen for strong religious feelings, and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities expressed in crime, perversion, and insanity.” I thought this was a good way of combining the elements of Lovecraftian and Grimdark, as I consider Grimdark Protagonists have to choose between good and evil, and are all "just as lost as we are". That transforms into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile", as well has having the effect of absolving the protagonists from moral responsibility

All Chapters have a cult. Tying yourself to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult comes with specific baggage that I think begins to distract from your Chapter. Fervent (and loud) fanaticism isn't a great fit with this brooding darkness that seems to be in danger of threatening to overwhelm your Marines. It's entirely possible for them to have deeply-held beliefs - and for these beliefs to be separate from the Imperial Church.

I knew a water world is a good reason to explain the Octopus chapter symbol. The world development came from a re-imagination of Innsmouth meets Waterworld.

I think there's a great deal you could do to express the symbolism of the Octopus. It can be a symbol of the doom the Imperium faces - its many tentacles the various forces that assail and probe the Imperium; equally you could use it to show your Chapter's warriors and how they can strike from any angle to confound. Equally, there are creatures in the void - void whales and the like - so there are other ways of doing this that aren't so typical.

I really do appreciate you asking this even though I hate the answer. I will be deleting most of the 15000 words.

To be clear, I'm not telling you to do this - certainly not without a copy of the original - what I'm saying is this: which are the core aspects that you wouldn't delete?

I have been giving this one question even more thought, and I think the trouble I am having with it iswhat are the darkest depths they can go without being chaos?how do you write it? because as soon as anyone touches anything not 'superhero' moment people cry/assume chaos

Crying chaos - are you talking about your friends/local group, or the Liber? I don't think those of the Liber would think so. When there are Chapters such as the Flesh Tearers, the Marines Malevolent and the Black Dragons, I think the line can be drawn rather far. Beyond that, there is the division between the public face of the Chapter and the true face within. It is perhaps a true indicator of the horrors facing the Imperium that its greatest champions must choose on a daily basis how far to compromise themselves and their ideals.

Minigiant · October 2, 2017

The Denizens of the Deep need ONE goal, for which they will do anything, sacrifice EVERYTHING, to achieve. For most Space Marine Chapters, it is protection of the Imperium the Emperor created. For the Relictors, it is destroying Chaos- for which they are willing to use Chaos-tainted relics to "fight fire with fire," potentially tainting themselves in the process. For the Dark Angels, it is keeping secret the fact many of their number became "Fallen Angels" and rebelled against their rightful leaders (the Lion and the Emperor).

The goals themselves draw lines the Chapter will not cross. In the Dark Angels' case, they will not tolerate other Imperial citizens viewing them in the same light as Horus and those following in his footsteps, i.e., the Fallen Angels; this prevents the Dark Angels from turning to Chaos, though it certainly doesn't prevent them from killing innocent people to eliminate witnesses. (The fact the Relictors' actions contradict their goal and make it impossible to achieve, is why few fans represent them. We don't like it when OUR armies and OUR heroes fail to achieve their goals.)

For what goal will a Denizen of the Deep commit what others will view as treason, and how will your Marine justify it? If you can answer that, you're all set. (For comparison, the Soul Drinkers justify their turning renegade, by claiming they fight for the Emperor's ideals, which the Imperium itself has betrayed.)

Makes sense, I just cannot think of anything original now. Because inspired by the idea of Elder Marks just goes down the route of copying the Relictors. What if I went with them consorting with the non-daemon warp entities (spit-balling now, I am getting desperate, scrapping the barrel, as my creativity has mostly dried out)

Arguably I believe this is the most important element because well I am effectively writing a crossover. Now it is also important to acknowledge I do not necessarily want the Old One Cthulhu in 40k. What I am after is Lovecraftian

Lovecraftian can best be described in 6 points (paraphrasing to fit into 40k universe)

1. Humanity's insignificant place in the universe

2. Horror being more than just the elements of blood, bones, or corpses

3. Antiquarian writing style

- (This is what determined me using the High Gothic name just as Astra Characradons)

4. heroes tend to be socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.

- (Hero in this sense is a loose term, I consider all Space Marines to be heroes)

5. Helplessness and hopelessness. All victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it.

6. Unanswered questions. Characters rarely if ever fully understand what is happening to them, and often go insane if they try.

7. Ones Sanity is fragile and vulnerability. Unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover. The strain of trying to cope, as Lovecraft often illustrates, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.

8.Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

In a lot of ways, the Warhammer 40,000 universe features a lot of these aspects already - it's simply down to you to emphasise them. Whilst Humanity is/was a dominant force in the galaxy, the Imperium is in decline and the average human is insignificant. The symbolism of the Astronomican shows this, with thousands being sacrificed every day just so the Emperor can be sustained. The Imperium is built upon blood, and sustained by bloodshed. There is very little that a single man can do to change their destiny or to alter the galaxy around them.

The 40k universe also features a great deal of horror. Existential horrors given flesh, even. Our hopes, our fears, our dreams and desires can consume us in a literal - as well as metaphorical - sense. This is a universe where we all have souls, and those souls are in constant danger.

Equally, the Space Marine Chapters are introspective and withdrawn. There are few who can understand what it means to be a warrior of the Adeptus Astartes - they fight to preserve a humanity they themselves will never truly possess. That post-human nature is something that I feel the works of Aaron Dembski-Bowden show very well. As for hopelessness? Well, that fatalism can certainly be an archetype of the Astartes - Humanity is doomed, and the actions of its greatest heroes only serve to stave off that darkness for as long as possible.

So there is nothing particular original about a Lovecraftian chapter is that what you are saying?

I have never read any of Aaron Dembski-Bowden novels unfortunately

As for hopelessness? Well, that fatalism can certainly be an archetype of the Astartes - Humanity is doomed, and the actions of its greatest heroes only serve to stave off that darkness for as long as possible.

I feel this can be interpreted a couple of ways so asking for some clarification. Fatalism is a archetype for all Chapters, or it could be for my chapter?

Even just that passage helps illustrate ideas that could go well with a Chapter of the Astartes. Reclusive, withdrawn, taciturn. Scholarly; grappling with something far larger than themselves. I imagine Librarians gazing into the abyss, scrying and trying to make sense of the truth as they can. The warp already teems with the sorts of consciousnesses that would be compared with the Elder Ones.

4 Traits, certainly something to work from.

Librarians sounds great, maybe the title of Void Stalker should be for my Librarians. It is unfortunate that my literacy skills are incapable of doing the Librarium justice.

Then the question I know will be asked, and I know I will be unable to answer is, why?

I honestly thought this was a good hook, drawn from the H.P Lovecraft quote

“Bunch together a group of people deliberately chosen for strong religious feelings, and you have a practical guarantee of dark morbidities expressed in crime, perversion, and insanity.”

I thought this was a good way of combining the elements of Lovecraftian and Grimdark, as I consider Grimdark

Protagonists have to choose between good and evil, and are all "just as lost as we are". That transforms into a kind of nihilism that portrays right action ... as either impossible or futile", as well has having the effect of absolving the protagonists from moral responsibility

All Chapters have a cult. Tying yourself to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Cult comes with specific baggage that I think begins to distract from your Chapter. Fervent (and loud) fanaticism isn't a great fit with this brooding darkness that seems to be in danger of threatening to overwhelm your Marines. It's entirely possible for them to have deeply-held beliefs - and for these beliefs to be separate from the Imperial Church.

Never even considered this, both aspects; the howling fanaticism not suiting the chapter, and the religion can be the chapter cult.

So how can I expand the chapter cult to be more than

"a brooding darkness that is threatening to consume everything" (Needs to be better written than that because that just sounds like the Tyranids). Honestly sounds a bit like an apocalypse cult. Then the question I am again incapable of answering is, why?

I knew a water world is a good reason to explain the Octopus chapter symbol. The world development came from a re-imagination of Innsmouth meets Waterworld.

I think there's a great deal you could do to express the symbolism of the Octopus. It can be a symbol of the doom the Imperium faces - its many tentacles the various forces that assail and probe the Imperium; equally you could use it to show your Chapter's warriors and how they can strike from any angle to confound. Equally, there are creatures in the void - void whales and the like - so there are other ways of doing this that aren't so typical.

Interesting idea, peaked my attention. So would you suggest forgoing a homeworld altogether and instead being fully fleet based?

I really do appreciate you asking this even though I hate the answer. I will be deleting most of the 15000 words.

To be clear, I'm not telling you to do this - certainly not without a copy of the original - what I'm saying is this: which are the core aspects that you wouldn't delete?

Dont worry, it is clear you arent telling me to do that. This chapter is so far off its foundations and so much has been written that a re-write is the equivalent of a clean slate. Plus the style needs to be better. Also please understand I am trying not to throw this all in the bin and call it a day like I do with every other attempt

I have been giving this one question even more thought, and I think the trouble I am having with it is
what are the darkest depths they can go without being chaos?

how do you write it? because as soon as anyone touches anything not 'superhero' moment people cry/assume chaos

Crying chaos - are you talking about your friends/local group, or the Liber?

Bit of both I feel

Commissar Molotov · October 2, 2017

So there is nothing particular original about a Lovecraftian chapter is that what you are saying?
I have never read any of Aaron Dembski-Bowden novels unfortunately

No, that's not what I'm saying. The 40k universe has lots of different aspects, and a DIY Chapter can play off specific ones. For example, the Space Marine archetype is that of a warrior, a soldier, a monk, an artist and the like. It's possible to create a militaristic, professional, no-nonsense Space Marine Chapter that riffs off the idea of a Space Marine as a soldier. It's possible to create a monastic, dolorous Chapter that focuses on Marines as monks. Marines as knights, as warriors, as barbarians, and so on.

Previously I have spoken about the Primarch Sanguinius, and how there are many sides to him as a Primarch. It's possible to create a Blood Angels chapter that's full of bloodthirsty vampires hungry for flesh. It's possible to make a commune of warrior-poets who have distilled war into an artform. And it's possible to do a Chapter that's anywhere on the continuum.

Which is not to say that a Lovecraftian Chapter has no legs. It's to say that the themes you wish to embody fit right in within 40k without standing out. It's possible to create a Lovecraftian Chapter that is subtle and enriches the 40k universe rather than being at odds with it. It's about choosing which aspects of the Imperium or the 40k universe you want to focus on. And here, it seems you're looking at some of the horrific aspects of that universe. Of the toll that living in the 'Dark Millennium' takes on its citizens.

What I highly suggest you do is to take the headings of the classic Index Astartes format and to put bullet points underneath with your key ideas. This will allow people to give you more specific feedback.

The_son_of_Dorn · October 2, 2017

What Molt Said.

When the Legions were formed into chapters, power, tactics, rules of engagement etc were also split. A chapter has a right to develop it's own niche/style when engaging in combat, warfare or rituals. This does not mean however that a chapter (Raven guard) for example would by default churn out only stealth specialist successors. The astartees are trained to be proficient in all forms of war, yet they may only apply them in a way beneficial to their strengths.

I created an Imperial fist successor chapter that in essence was a Alpha legion/night lords, counter intelligence/response chapter. Except they focused on the Morality of Dorn, spreading only the truth to counter the Lies spread by chaos cells and Alpha Legion insurgents.

So long as you give enough reasoning/justification as to why a successor chapter may fall away from their Parent Legions preferred way of war you are pretty solid.

Bjorn Firewalker · October 2, 2017

Let's have your Chapter descend towards madness the same way an H.P. Lovecraft story's protagonist does.

Pre-Founding: AdMech Explorators discover a "xeno artifact" on Nahmu, and ask the Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition to help ID it. (There's a literary precedence for this. See the Admech and Ordo Xenos' joint investigation of the Shadowlight, in the 'Ciaphas Cain: Defender of the Imperium' Omnibus.) Alarmed by what they discover, the AdMech and the Inquisition propose Founding a Space Marine Chapter specifically to combat the threat this particular xeno species (the Enslaver subspecies known as "Outer Gods") poses.

Founding: The Iron Snakes training cadre arrive at Nahmu, and begin recruiting from the colonists; the AdMech and Inquisition assign them the task of watching over the "xeno artifact," but have yet to tell them WHY. Kreios (Nahmu-born recruit) tells Iacchus (former Iron Snakes Chaplain) of local legends; curious, the Chaplain decides to examine the artifact, learns it's a portal, encounters You-Know-Who, and misidentifies the xeno as the God-Emperor. The Apostle Revolution occurs, splitting the Chapter in half as it wars against itself, before the loyalists win with the aid of AdMech and Inquisition allies in-the-know (and who spare the loyalists instead of purging them, "just in case," because it'll be impossible to Found a new Chapter to replace them).

Aftermath: The AdMech and Inquisition tell the Chapter's senior officers (future "Deep Ones") more of what they know of the artifact; the Deep Ones are furious secrets were kept from them, but they understand WHY those secrets were kept. They become a cross between Dirty Harry and a typical Lovecraftian protagonist: investigators obsessively studying all info available on a certain subject, specifically to discover a weakness that allows them to destroy this subject.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

Commissar Molotov · October 2, 2017

To me, this thought process is entirely counter-productive to creating a cohesive Chapter concept. It's an interesting story, to be sure, but I think it hangs far too heavily on far too many special little quirks and oddities. You have:

A special relationship with the Ordo Xenos
A special relationship with the Adeptus Mechanicus
A special and unique planet
A special and unique Xenos race that has never been mentioned in 40k lore
A Space Marine Chapter guarding something super secret and special
A chapter that hinges entirely around the actions of one special marine
'You Know Who' - so you're actually having Cthulhu in 40k? (This is where the '40k meets Lovecraft' goes from an interesting merging to an explicit piece of fan-fiction)
A Chapter civil war

Those are a lot of hoops for your Chapter to jump through. It's also, for me, moving too quickly. Focus less on plot and character - focus instead on the character you want your Chapter to have.

Instead of thinking about the Chapter's origins, think about your Chapter as it stands in the Dark Millennium. What do you want them to be? From there, we can work out how to get them there.

Bjorn Firewalker · October 3, 2017

Denizens of the Deep= Fox Mulder in space: "The 'Outer Gods' are the true threat to the Imperium!"

Ultramarines= Dana Scully in space: "Are you sure you didn't confuse the Chaos Gods for this hypothetical Enslaver subspecies?"

Guilliman= FBI Assistant Director Skinner in space: "Mulder, stop sprouting nonsense about 'Outer Gods' and their cultists' conspiracies, you'll incite panic and damage Imperial morale. Now, the Orks are attacking Imperial worlds in the X and Z Systems. I suspect it's to draw our defenses away from the Y System, which has a vital shipyard- but one can never be certain with Orks- so I'm sending you two to investigate."

Scully- I mean Ultramarines: "Yes, Sir. We will discover the Orks' plans, and unravel them."

Mulder- I mean the Denizens of the Deep (grudgingly): "Fine, I'll go. Hey, isn't X System where the Mechanicus excavated some xeno ruins and uncovered a statue of-"

Skinner- I mean Guilliman: "I'm sending you to the Y System. Stay out of the X System, or I'll declare you 'renegades' and have you purged."

Denizens of the Deep: "You're just a puppet of the 'Outer Gods' cultists! When I get the evidence to prove they exist...!"

Ultramarines (sighing): "Emperor damn it, Denizens of the Deep."

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

'You Know Who' - so you're actually having Cthulhu in 40k? (This is where the '40k meets Lovecraft' goes from an interesting merging to an explicit piece of fan-fiction)

The original intention was to always avoid having Cthulhu explicitly, rather leave it to the imagination. The greatest fear being that which you cannot fathom

Instead of thinking about the Chapter's origins, think about your Chapter as it stands in the Dark Millennium. What do you want them to be? From there, we can work out how to get them there.

I still cannot articulate my thoughts on this. I have however put this together like you suggested. I have used your headings because well I consider that the standard IA format now. Lots of empty sections right now because well they are currently irrelevant. Mainly it is establishing the chapters cult and belief system, then figure out origins. Working backwards

Origins

Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.
Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity; and,

Homeworld?

Currently irrelevant

Battlefield Doctrine

subjects often find themselves completely unable to simply run away, instead driven by some other force to their desperate end.

Organisation

Currently irrelevant

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Scholarly; grappling with something far larger than themselves. Existential crisis
They recognise no divine presence
Reclusive, withdrawn, taciturn.
They along with the cosmos and the forces in it are indifferent toward humanity
Humanity is insignificant, and is not the first or the last, nor a particularly special, species in the universe.
Detachment.socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.
Helplessness and hopelessness. Victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it.
Unanswered questions. They do not fully understand what is happening to them, and slowly going insane trying.
Their Sanity is fragile and vulnerable. Characters in many of Lovecraft's stories are unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover.
The strain of trying to cope, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.
Absolved from all moral responsibility.
"just as lost as we are".
horrific aspects of that universe. Of the toll that living in the 'Dark Millennium' takes on its citizens.
"a brooding darkness that is threatening to consume everything"

Gene-seed

Currently irrelevant

Edited October 3, 2017 by Minigiant

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

Another spit-balling moment, what if they recruit only from the Void-born?

Bjorn Firewalker · October 3, 2017

Another spit-balling moment, what if they recruit only from the Void-born?

Too restrictive. It would be like having the Royal Marines recruit only from the City of London, and ignoring the fact this military force must remain large enough to sustain losses from simultaneously fighting wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and every other theater a Royal Marine may need to fight in.

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

Another spit-balling moment, what if they recruit only from the Void-born?

Too restrictive. It would be like having the Royal Marines recruit only from the City of London, and ignoring the fact this military force must remain large enough to sustain losses from simultaneously fighting wars in Afghanistan, Iraq, and every other theater a Royal Marine may need to fight in.

Agreed but, there are work arounds

Anyway I have something small. More a blurb for Chapter Cult and Belief System. Written from a Librarian perspective

"Our Chapter, the Inquiliana Abyssi associated with Reclusiveness, being withdrawn, and taciturn. Our minds within the Librarium scry out into the deep cold vastness of the void to find nothing but a senseless, meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe.

No action can be compared to the fate that awaits us all, all will be dust. Humanities time has come, we no longer belong here. Nothing can save us from the inevitable terror we all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Only us and Xenos - who understand and obey a set of laws, which to us seem Omniscient. Xenos – though dangerous to all of humankind - are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are incomprehensible, cosmic forces, and our notions of morality have no significance for these beings. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding.

We try to look away but with no understanding our minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Our vulnerability is a metaphor for the Imperium. The inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the dark tendrils of the Void Stalkers. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us.

Legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. We attempt to look beyond the encroaching veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order, a mountain walked or stumbled; for our minds to then be scorched."

Edited October 3, 2017 by Minigiant

Commissar Molotov · October 3, 2017

Another spit-balling moment, what if they recruit only from the Void-born?

The key here is to ask 'why?' - but perhaps not in the way that you expect. I'm not asking why from an in-universe perspective, but to ask you what it is you want to achieve through Void-born recruitment? It's much more useful to those who are trying to help you if you say, "I'm thinking of doing X, and I think it would give Y to the Chapter." That way, if they don't like the idea, they can suggest alternatives to help you achieve what you want. For me, the key aspects that could be brought to a DIY Chapter through the inclusion of the void-born would be a sense of homelessness, an ethereal and strange quality, an increase in mutation (and/or psychic potential) and a different relationship with the warp and/or the Imperium. However, Bjorn is entirely right when he says that recruiting from the Void-born would raise a lot of problems for a Chapter of the Astartes. I would question whether it would be possible for them to recruit in the quantities they would need to sustain themselves whilst keeping in mind rejection rates and the like for the implantation of gene-seed. (As an aside, I don't think it would be a bad idea for your Chapter to be far smaller than typical Chapters, as that would reinforce the sense of vulnerability and isolation.)

Origins Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity; and,

Questionable parentage is something that a lot of DIY Chapter creators tackle, but I'm not sure that mixed gene-seed or lost records would be a particularly useful thing here. I think the idea of the Chapter being detached from Imperial society in general, aloof even, would be a good thing. It's possible here for your Chapter to have become so obsessed with their mission that they have withdrawn from the wider Imperium - perhaps even neglected their duties elsewhere. The issue here is how you frame the article in terms of its viewpoint. If it is written by someone who is familiar with the Chapter, they will have access to information that an outsider would not. I think it's possible the wider Imperium may not be familiar with the Chapter's heritage because they simply don't acknowledge it. The past is the past, and the past is ash. They may not perhaps venerate their Primarch (openly), leading to wider Imperial sources to speculate. That's not out of the realms of possibility. In your origins section it's possible to talk about the Chapter's reputation and set up the mystery surrounding them.

Homeworld? Currently irrelevant

There's a lot of different directions you could go in. Your Chapter could be fleet-based; they could ply the depths of the void, searching ceaselessly for their quarry. Equally, your Chapter's fortress could be on a cold and desolate dead world, among the bones of a long-dead alien race. Some of it will depend what you want to evoke to your reader - what aspects you want them to have. Perhaps they watch over an Imperial sector, but as the millennia have worn on, they have become less and less gregarious, less and less welcoming, less and less responsive, neglecting their charges as they turn ever inwards. Worlds that once cheered them now shudder to see their dread ships enter in-system to round up new recruits....

Battlefield Doctrine subjects often find themselves completely unable to simply run away, instead driven by some other force to their desperate end. Organisation Currently irrelevant

To a certain degree, these are the least relevant paragraphs - they're Space Marines, they fight like Space Marines. You might find, however, that as they progress you are able to talk about how the Chapter's beliefs and circumstances have altered the way in which they wage war - and how that has altered their structure.

Chapter Cult and Belief System Scholarly; grappling with something far larger than themselves. Existential crisisThey recognise no divine presenceReclusive, withdrawn, taciturn.They along with the cosmos and the forces in it are indifferent toward humanityHumanity is insignificant, and is not the first or the last, nor a particularly special, species in the universe.Detachment.socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.Helplessness and hopelessness. Victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it.Unanswered questions. They do not fully understand what is happening to them, and slowly going insane trying.Their Sanity is fragile and vulnerable. Characters in many of Lovecraft's stories are unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover.The strain of trying to cope, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.Absolved from all moral responsibility."just as lost as we are".horrific aspects of that universe. Of the toll that living in the 'Dark Millennium' takes on its citizens."a brooding darkness that is threatening to consume everything"Gene-seed Currently irrelevant

You need to consider how you incorporate the Cthulhu elements here. It seems to me the most straightforward aspect that some quirk of your Chapter's gene-seed has led to a prodigious increase in the power of its psychic members - its Librarians. This comes with the cost of dark dreams and overwhelming dread. I think this perhaps ties in with gene-seed; perhaps you could look at the Catalepsean Node and perhaps how the Chapter's warriors all suffer from potent dreams which are scrutinised in detail to glean some hint at the future. Librarians could be predictors of the future, like the Prognosticators of the Silver Skulls. But too much time staring into the void means the void stares into them.You then, perhaps have a melancholy, introverted and haunted Chapter, struggling to complete their duty. And that's more compelling than super awesome heroes. Ultimately, you have potential here - you just have to think about what you want to do and what direction you want to go.

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

Another spit-balling moment, what if they recruit only from the Void-born?

The key here is to ask 'why?' - but perhaps not in the way that you expect. I'm not asking why from an in-universe perspective, but to ask you what it is you want to achieve through Void-born recruitment? It's much more useful to those who are trying to help you if you say, "I'm thinking of doing X, and I think it would give Y to the Chapter." That way, if they don't like the idea, they can suggest alternatives to help you achieve what you want.

For me, the key aspects that could be brought to a DIY Chapter through the inclusion of the void-born would be a sense of homelessness, an ethereal and strange quality, an increase in mutation (and/or psychic potential) and a different relationship with the warp and/or the Imperium.

Well the idea was sparked from thinking about how to increase the uneasy quality of the chapter. You expanded upon that nicely with 'an ethereal and strange quality', I had not considered the homelessness. Increase mutation, would certainly tie in nicely with your gene-seed suggestion. (Next sentence I am getting ahead of myself). A different relationship with the warp, one key topics for Lovecraft was Astral travel so maybe go along those lines (Side note until some more stability)

However, Bjorn is entirely right when he says that recruiting from the Void-born would raise a lot of problems for a Chapter of the Astartes. I would question whether it would be possible for them to recruit in the quantities they would need to sustain themselves whilst keeping in mind rejection rates and the like for the implantation of gene-seed. (As an aside, I don't think it would be a bad idea for your Chapter to be far smaller than typical Chapters, as that would reinforce the sense of vulnerability and isolation.)

Indeed, even I think a smaller chapter is better. As for the logistics, I have a very dark suggestion; Baby factories. I am thinking the sort of thing from Battlestar Galactica. It would certainly provide the increased numbers, not enough to make full chapter strength.

Origins

Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity; and,

Questionable parentage is something that a lot of DIY Chapter creators tackle, but I'm not sure that mixed gene-seed or lost records would be a particularly useful thing here. I think the idea of the Chapter being detached from Imperial society in general, aloof even, would be a good thing. It's possible here for your Chapter to have become so obsessed with their mission that they have withdrawn from the wider Imperium - perhaps even neglected their duties elsewhere.

The issue here is how you frame the article in terms of its viewpoint. If it is written by someone who is familiar with the Chapter, they will have access to information that an outsider would not. I think it's possible the wider Imperium may not be familiar with the Chapter's heritage because they simply don't acknowledge it. The past is the past, and the past is ash. They may not perhaps venerate their Primarch (openly), leading to wider Imperial sources to speculate. That's not out of the realms of possibility.

In your origins section it's possible to talk about the Chapter's reputation and set up the mystery surrounding them.

I think questionable parentage may be better incorporated into Void born if it goes that way.

Talking about both points, and Gene-seed. Maybe Blood Raven Gene-seed. It kinda covers a lot. I can have them disappear.

Homeworld?

Currently irrelevant

There's a lot of different directions you could go in. Your Chapter could be fleet-based; they could ply the depths of the void, searching ceaselessly for their quarry. Equally, your Chapter's fortress could be on a cold and desolate dead world, among the bones of a long-dead alien race. Some of it will depend what you want to evoke to your reader - what aspects you want them to have. Perhaps they watch over an Imperial sector, but as the millennia have worn on, they have become less and less gregarious, less and less welcoming, less and less responsive, neglecting their charges as they turn ever inwards. Worlds that once cheered them now shudder to see their dread ships enter in-system to round up new recruits....

I kinda always pictured them fleet based, previous version I had a planet for the sake of keeping 'not-Cthulhu' trapped at the bottom of its oceans.

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Scholarly; grappling with something far larger than themselves. Existential crisis

They recognise no divine presence

Reclusive, withdrawn, taciturn.

They along with the cosmos and the forces in it are indifferent toward humanity

Humanity is insignificant, and is not the first or the last, nor a particularly special, species in the universe.

Detachment.socially isolated, reclusive individuals, usually with an academic or scholarly intent to compensate for social shortcomings.

Helplessness and hopelessness. Victories are temporary, and they usually pay a price for it.

Unanswered questions. They do not fully understand what is happening to them, and slowly going insane trying.

Their Sanity is fragile and vulnerable. Characters in many of Lovecraft's stories are unable to cope mentally with the extraordinary and almost incomprehensible truths they witness, hear or discover.

The strain of trying to cope, is impossible to bear and insanity takes hold.

Absolved from all moral responsibility.

"just as lost as we are".

horrific aspects of that universe. Of the toll that living in the 'Dark Millennium' takes on its citizens.

"a brooding darkness that is threatening to consume everything"

Gene-seed

Currently irrelevant

You need to consider how you incorporate the Cthulhu elements here. It seems to me the most straightforward aspect that some quirk of your Chapter's gene-seed has led to a prodigious increase in the power of its psychic members - its Librarians. This comes with the cost of dark dreams and overwhelming dread. I think this perhaps ties in with gene-seed; perhaps you could look at the Catalepsean Node and perhaps how the Chapter's warriors all suffer from potent dreams which are scrutinised in detail to glean some hint at the future. Librarians could be predictors of the future, like the Prognosticators of the Silver Skulls. But too much time staring into the void means the void stares into them.

You then, perhaps have a melancholy, introverted and haunted Chapter, struggling to complete their duty. And that's more compelling than super awesome heroes.

Ultimately, you have potential here - you just have to think about what you want to do and what direction you want to go.

I think you may have missed the following, it is an attempt at a snippet of their beliefs told through the eyes of a Librarian

"Our Chapter, the Inquiliana Abyssi associated with Reclusiveness, being withdrawn, and taciturn. Our minds within the Librarium scry out into the deep cold vastness of the void to find nothing but a senseless, meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe.

No action can be compared to the fate that awaits us all, all will be dust. Humanities time has come, we no longer belong here. Nothing can save us from the inevitable terror we all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Only us and Xenos - who understand and obey a set of laws, which to us seem Omniscient. Xenos – though dangerous to all of humankind - are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are incomprehensible, cosmic forces, and our notions of morality have no significance for these beings. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding.

We try to look away but with no understanding our minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Our vulnerability is a metaphor for the Imperium. The inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the dark tendrils of the Void Stalkers. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us.

Legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. We attempt to look beyond the encroaching veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order, a mountain walked or stumbled; for our minds to then be scorched."

You need to consider how you incorporate the Cthulhu elements here. It seems to me the most straightforward aspect that some quirk of your Chapter's gene-seed has led to a prodigious increase in the power of its psychic members - its Librarians. This comes with the cost of dark dreams and overwhelming dread. I think this perhaps ties in with gene-seed; perhaps you could look at the Catalepsean Node and perhaps how the Chapter's warriors all suffer from potent dreams which are scrutinised in detail to glean some hint at the future. Librarians could be predictors of the future, like the Prognosticators of the Silver Skulls. But too much time staring into the void means the void stares into them.

You then, perhaps have a melancholy, introverted and haunted Chapter, struggling to complete their duty. And that's more compelling than super awesome heroes.

Ultimately, you have potential here - you just have to think about what you want to do and what direction you want to go.

I have kinda talked about this part dotted through the rest of my replies. I think you may like my snippet. I need to now go read about the Silver Skulls and Prognosticators to see how they incorporate divination.

Bjorn Firewalker · October 3, 2017

The obsession with secrets, and references to an "Inner Circle," is one that makes me think of the Dark Angels. Maybe you should let your ideas percolate as you wait for 'Codex: Dark Angels' (8th Edition) to become available? Many of them can be reused for a Dark Angels Successor, with some rewriting.

As for baby factories, the question "Why?" will be raised again. Is it done to ensure the recruits' genetic purity? What measures do the Chapter take to reduce the resulting recruits' vulnerability to biological weapons targeting their shared genes? (Dark Horse Comics' 'Star Wars: The Clone Wars' has a Kamino cloner turn traitor and design a biological weapon against the clonetroopers, who are ridiculously vulnerable to it. It's for this reason the Empire diversified sources of recruits and genetic donors for its stormtroopers.)

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

As for baby factories, the question "Why?" will be raised again. Is it done to ensure the recruits' genetic purity? What measures do the Chapter take to reduce the resulting recruits' vulnerability to biological weapons targeting their shared genes? (Dark Horse Comics' 'Star Wars: The Clone Wars' has a Kamino cloner turn traitor and design a biological weapon against the clonetroopers, who are ridiculously vulnerable to it. It's for this reason the Empire diversified sources of recruits and genetic donors for its stormtroopers.)

It is the depth they will go to to survive. Voidborn are an unstable supply of recruits.

I do think being Voidborn has something, I am happy to listen for simpler and other solutions to the low recruiting supply

Minigiant · October 3, 2017

I really want feedback for the tester sample of the Chapter Cult and Belief System:

Origins

Founding: 21st 'Cursed'? or just a regular one?

- Developing the rest of the chapter has kinda resulted in them fitting the ideas of a cursed chapter. Fits the Lovecraftian idea of

'driven by some other force to their desperate end'

Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity.

- withdrawn from the wider Imperium

- do not venerate their Primarch (openly)

Homeworld?/Recruitment

Fleet Based

- ply the depths of the void, searching ceaselessly for their quarry

Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.

- Recruiting solely from Void; homelessness, an ethereal and strange quality, an increase in mutation (and/or psychic potential) and a different relationship with the warp

Battlefield Doctrine

They try to defy entropy, and impermanence, with their stories and their tales.

Organisation

Currently irrelevant

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Reclusive, Withdrawn, Taciturn, all terms associated with the Inquiliana Abyssi. Millennia of screeching divinations have left them with a deep cold sense of hopelessness. Mankind dissolves in the meaningless when impermanence is the only real thing. As Astartes their own splendid uniqueness sticks out in the Dark Imperium with a towering majesty, and yet they go into the ground a few feet in order blindly and dumbly to rot and disappear forever.

Our minds within the Librarium wonder out into the deep cold vastness of the void to find nothing but a senseless, meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe.

No action can be compared to the fate that awaits us all, all will be dust. Humanities time has come, we no longer belong here. Nothing can save us from the inevitable terror we all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Only us and Xenos - who understand and obey a set of laws, which to us seem Omniscient. Xenos though dangerous to all of humankind - are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are incomprehensible, cosmic forces, and our notions of morality have no significance for these beings. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding.

We try to look away but with no understanding our minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Our vulnerability is a metaphor for the Imperium. The inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the dark tendrils of the Void Stalkers. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us.

Legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. We attempt to look beyond the encroaching veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, with eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled, for our minds to then be scorched.

Gene-seed

Gene-seed - Blood Ravens?

- Questionable lineage of their own

- Contributes to the Explaination of excess Librarians

- Continues that by contributing to the void born tie in

Mutation

- To the Catalepsean Node (The Unsleeping): This implant controls the circadian rhythms and responses to sleep deprivation, allowing a Space Marine
to stay awake at full effectiveness for days at a time. The mutation has resulted in suffer from potent dreams which are scrutinised in detail to glean some hint at the future. Librarians could be predictors of the future, like the Prognosticators of the Silver Skulls. But too much time staring into the void means the void stares into them.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Minigiant

October 4, 2017

As for baby factories, the question "Why?" will be raised again. Is it done to ensure the recruits' genetic purity? What measures do the Chapter take to reduce the resulting recruits' vulnerability to biological weapons targeting their shared genes? (Dark Horse Comics' 'Star Wars: The Clone Wars' has a Kamino cloner turn traitor and design a biological weapon against the clonetroopers, who are ridiculously vulnerable to it. It's for this reason the Empire diversified sources of recruits and genetic donors for its stormtroopers.)

It is the depth they will go to to survive. Voidborn are an unstable supply of recruits.

I do think being Voidborn has something, I am happy to listen for simpler and other solutions to the low recruiting supply

My Void Reavers maintain a distinct population that they select their marines from. They 'recruit' from vast tracts of the imperium both men and women (often of breeding age) that are then used to produce, via eugenics, a superior next generation of marine recruits. These individuals are mind wiped and along with being retrained inducted into the chapters cult. Helping to ensure that the chapter remains uninfluenced by the imperial cult...

Minigiant · October 4, 2017

My Void Reavers maintain a distinct population that they select their marines from. They 'recruit' from vast tracts of the imperium both men and women (often of breeding age) that are then used to produce, via eugenics, a superior next generation of marine recruits. These individuals are mind wiped and along with being retrained inducted into the chapters cult. Helping to ensure that the chapter remains uninfluenced by the imperial cult...

That's cool. I don'tthink it is for my Chapter without it being fundamentally a different Chapter but, still cool

October 4, 2017

I really want feedback for the tester sample of the Chapter Cult and Belief System:

I'm game though I should warn you I use examples alot so... get ready for references to my Void Reavers chapter... perhaps one day I'll dare (ie have the confidence...) to post an IA of them here...

Origins

Founding: 21st 'Cursed'? or just a regular one?
- Developing the rest of the chapter has kinda resulted in them fitting the ideas of a cursed chapter. Fits the Lovecraftian idea of
'driven by some other force to their desperate end'

Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity.
- withdrawn from the wider Imperium
- do not venerate their Primarch (openly)

Honestly the 13th and 21st founds come with their own baggage that you might want to avoid given the path this chapter is already traveling. It has been noted in the current fluff that much of the imperium was working to hunt down and deal with the chapters of the 21st, and I'd imagine the 13th as well, with only the great rift putting these efforts to purge the dark/cursed chapters on hold as survival takes a backseat to fanaticism...

My own chapter is supposed to be from the 3rd founding. I picked this one because it has almost no lore and it was a long ass time ago... even by imperial standards.

I don't see any thing wrong with having the chapter be withdrawn. Honestly this chapter reeks of depression and the depressed desire isolation.

As far as their primarch is concerned... I suppose it would come down to what you mean by venerate and why not doing so openly would matter.

With the Void Reavers they have no idea who their primarch is. When G-man (I am not going to even try and spell either of them...) returned the lack of interest they experienced in him confirmed, as far as the Reavers as concerned, that he wasn't their primarch... they do however experience a strong interest in the activities the Thousand Sons and the World Eaters...

Homeworld?/Recruitment

Fleet Based
- ply the depths of the void, searching ceaselessly for their quarry
Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.
- Recruiting solely from Void; homelessness, an ethereal and strange quality, an increase in mutation (and/or psychic potential) and a different relationship with the warp

Fleet based is good though make sure you have a way to maintain your ships... might want to look at both the Space Sharks and the Dark Angels for cannon ways to handle this.

What do you mean by questionable parentage? The words you used are qualifiers to be sure but ones that produce extensive variance...

Paranormal... you mean psykers? unusual events that can't normally be explained via science and reason? ie an usual run of luck?

dysfunctional... murders? or do you mean physiological ie exaggerated autistic traits? or maybe physical traits?

abnormal... very broad... the mind races to fill in the gaps...

Sorry about that my English teacher ground into our skulls the need to use specifics not generics when describing something to ensure there are as few miss understandings as possible.

Battlefield Doctrine

They try to defy entropy, and impermanence, with their stories and their tales.
Organisation

Currently irrelevant

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Reclusive, Withdrawn, Taciturn, all terms associated with the Inquiliana Abyssi. Millennia of screeching divinations have left them with a deep cold sense of hopelessness. Mankind dissolves in the meaningless when impermanence is the only real thing. As Astartes their own splendid uniqueness sticks out in the Dark Imperium with a towering majesty, and yet they go into the ground a few feet in order blindly and dumbly to rot and disappear forever.

Our minds within the Librarium wonder out into the deep cold vastness of the void to find nothing but a senseless, meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe.

No action can be compared to the fate that awaits us all, all will be dust. Humanities time has come, we no longer belong here. Nothing can save us from the inevitable terror we all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Only us and Xenos - who understand and obey a set of laws, which to us seem Omniscient. Xenos though dangerous to all of humankind - are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are incomprehensible, cosmic forces, and our notions of morality have no significance for these beings. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding.

We try to look away but with no understanding our minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Our vulnerability is a metaphor for the Imperium. The inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the dark tendrils of the Void Stalkers. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us.

Legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. We attempt to look beyond the encroaching veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, with eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled, for our minds to then be scorched.

Honestly my Void Reavers would have only one thing to say to your guys "Of course it's hopeless! If it wasn't then there would be no need for us. We were crafted to be weapons in the face of hopelessness to fight when no other can. We are the bulwark against the final night. Though our deaths humanity gains another moment. Though our suffering humanity knows a little less. Our war will never end. For our foe can never be defeated only held back. This is our fate. This is our burden. This is our privilege."

Gene-seed

Gene-seed - Blood Ravens?
- Questionable lineage of their own
- Contributes to the Explaination of excess Librarians

- Continues that by contributing to the void born tie in

Mutation
- To the Catalepsean Node (The Unsleeping): This implant controls the circadian rhythms and responses to sleep deprivation, allowing a Space Marine
to stay awake at full effectiveness for days at a time. The mutation has resulted in suffer from potent dreams which are scrutinised in detail to glean some hint at the future. Librarians could be predictors of the future, like the Prognosticators of the Silver Skulls. But too much time staring into the void means the void stares into them.

Oh nice! This is the first time I've seen someone use Blood Ravens gene-seed... so congratulations! I can totally understand the desire to use this gene-seed.

That said I'd avoid it. The Blood Ravens don't know who their progenitor is and even the imperium seems to have some problems with the chapter as a whole... given the lack of known history it could well be that the Thousand Sons are the parent... however I'd avoid it. I'd avoid naming the gene-seed at all.

Consider this...

The Void Reavers have no idea who their progenitors are. Though records seem to suggest they may well be descendants of the White Scars their gene-seed has mutated so significantly that it is no longer recognizable as a descent of any of the nine loyalists. This is especially true of their black carapace which has mutated to be partially detremental to the chapter as the invasive nerve tracks it creates to interface with power armor ultimately results in nerve damage to the limbs requiring the amputation and replacement of the arms and legs of all marines. The Imperium is maintaining a strict watch over the chapters gene-seed tithes though the gene-seed has proven stable despite its mutated nature.

In closing consider this... Nature vs Nurture is it our biology that desires who we are or is it our history? I would caution you not to get caught in the same trap I have seen many others gleefully race towards...

For many writing their chapters I have seen a drive towards nature. The reference to the White Scars was on purpose. The Void Reavers have an abnormal amount of bionics... that screams Iron Hands to some... I purposely shifted away from them because of that association. I don't like that kind of heavy handed NATURE drive that others seem hell bent on embracing.

As for who their parent legion is... well that is something I think a writer should keep in mind especially if they are not going to list them.

My Void Reavers are a chimeric chapter of traitor gene-seed... specifically they are World Eaters and the Thousand Sons... I chose those two because they are my favorite legions bare none. The original Void Reavers, those created in the 3rd founding, are long dead. Their chapter monastery, a mobile forge station, was discovered by a chaos warlord who had long ago turned his back on the chaos gods and had manged to survive. With the discovery he manipulated his warband into securing gene-seed as the monastery's vault was breached and it's stores destroyed. Following this they would pose as a chapter returning from beyond the light and run the long game... though his followers had been lead to believe they would be turning on the Imperium few would survive long enough to realize the truth and ultimately none of the chapters new recruits would ever learn the truth of there nature. Taking up the mantel of a chapter that never really existed. Incidentally their hatred and mistrust of the Imperial Cult is born of the warlords own beliefs that "There are no gods, there never were." that and Lorgar is a prick and whiny brat.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Mordray

Minigiant · October 4, 2017

Origins

Founding: 21st 'Cursed'? or just a regular one?
- Developing the rest of the chapter has kinda resulted in them fitting the ideas of a cursed chapter. Fits the Lovecraftian idea of
'driven by some other force to their desperate end'

Individuals, often detached from society, can gain perspectives that allow them to glimpse reality, but this often leads to insanity.
- withdrawn from the wider Imperium
- do not venerate their Primarch (openly)

Honestly the 13th and 21st founds come with their own baggage that you might want to avoid given the path this chapter is already traveling. It has been noted in the current fluff that much of the imperium was working to hunt down and deal with the chapters of the 21st, and I'd imagine the 13th as well, with only the great rift putting these efforts to purge the dark/cursed chapters on hold as survival takes a backseat to fanaticism...

My own chapter is supposed to be from the 3rd founding. I picked this one because it has almost no lore and it was a long ass time ago... even by imperial standards.

I don't see any thing wrong with having the chapter be withdrawn. Honestly this chapter reeks of depression and the depressed desire isolation.

As far as their primarch is concerned... I suppose it would come down to what you mean by venerate and why not doing so openly would matter.

With the Void Reavers they have no idea who their primarch is. When G-man (I am not going to even try and spell either of them...) returned the lack of interest they experienced in him confirmed, as far as the Reavers as concerned, that he wasn't their primarch... they do however experience a strong interest in the activities the Thousand Sons and the World Eaters...

Honestly I tend to side with Molotov:

I'm not sure that mixed gene-seed or lost records would be a particularly useful thing here.

I think it's possible the wider Imperium may not be familiar with the Chapter's heritage because they simply don't acknowledge it. The past is the past, and the past is ash. They may not perhaps venerate their Primarch (openly), leading to wider Imperial sources to speculate.

What does not knowing their gene-seed add. If I was going for a distinct Shadows over Innsmouth feel, indeed no gene-seed perfect sense (I would love to add a Shadows over Innsmouth successor chapter, story for another day). In addition I have never seen a no gene-seed IA written well.

I don't think any of the other 'named' foundings suit them, 21st is the only one that bares some resemblance, and it does come with 'baggage' but really how much more baggage does it add to this chapter? does it enhance it? I am still unsure on both answers. If it is not 21st then it will be a "bland" founding

Homeworld?/Recruitment

Fleet Based
- ply the depths of the void, searching ceaselessly for their quarry
Questionable parentage. Relatives of characters are typically depicted as paranormal, dysfunctional or abnormal, whereas intimate relations in general are often represented as foreboding, mysterious, and sinister.
- Recruiting solely from Void; homelessness, an ethereal and strange quality, an increase in mutation (and/or psychic potential) and a different relationship with the warp

Fleet based is good though make sure you have a way to maintain your ships... might want to look at both the Space Sharks and the Dark Angels for cannon ways to handle this.

What do you mean by questionable parentage? The words you used are qualifiers to be sure but ones that produce extensive variance...

Paranormal... you mean psykers? unusual events that can't normally be explained via science and reason? ie an usual run of luck?

dysfunctional... murders? or do you mean physiological ie exaggerated autistic traits? or maybe physical traits?

abnormal... very broad... the mind races to fill in the gaps...

Sorry about that my English teacher ground into our skulls the need to use specifics not generics when describing something to ensure there are as few miss understandings as possible.

So this is a Lovecraftian chapter, the bullet point is just one of eight or so key components to lovecrafts work, I divided them up across the IA format to where they may best be incorporated. So yes they are all vague. Underneath I tried to explain how I think about incorporating void born as recruits explains and adds these elements. Voidborn are viewed as paranormal, dysfunctional, and abnormal for they are 'touched' by the warp. I had to take the term questionable parentage to mean a human recruit gives birth to a Space arine

Battlefield Doctrine

They try to defy entropy, and impermanence, with their stories and their tales.
Organisation

Currently irrelevant

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Reclusive, Withdrawn, Taciturn, all terms associated with the Inquiliana Abyssi. Millennia of screeching divinations have left them with a deep cold sense of hopelessness. Mankind dissolves in the meaningless when impermanence is the only real thing. As Astartes their own splendid uniqueness sticks out in the Dark Imperium with a towering majesty, and yet they go into the ground a few feet in order blindly and dumbly to rot and disappear forever.

Our minds within the Librarium wonder out into the deep cold vastness of the void to find nothing but a senseless, meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe.

No action can be compared to the fate that awaits us all, all will be dust. Humanities time has come, we no longer belong here. Nothing can save us from the inevitable terror we all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Only us and Xenos - who understand and obey a set of laws, which to us seem Omniscient. Xenos though dangerous to all of humankind - are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are incomprehensible, cosmic forces, and our notions of morality have no significance for these beings. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding.

We try to look away but with no understanding our minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Our vulnerability is a metaphor for the Imperium. The inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the dark tendrils of the Void Stalkers. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us.

Legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. We attempt to look beyond the encroaching veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, with eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled, for our minds to then be scorched.

Honestly my Void Reavers would have only one thing to say to your guys "Of course it's hopeless! If it wasn't then there would be no need for us. We were crafted to be weapons in the face of hopelessness to fight when no other can. We are the bulwark against the final night. Though our deaths humanity gains another moment. Though our suffering humanity knows a little less. Our war will never end. For our foe can never be defeated only held back. This is our fate. This is our burden. This is our privilege."

All I can say is our Chapters are different, mine aren't 'raging against the dying of the light'

Minigiant · October 4, 2017

So Draft 2.2 of the Chapter Cult and Belief System. This has to be (while not necessarily written well) pretty solid before I advance onto the other sections (which are still in a state of flux). I really would appreciate the best feedback possible on this section, it is such a cornerstone for my lovecraftian nascent Chapter.

Chapter Cult and Belief System

Haunted by their dreams, for fear is real, lying in their thoughts of the future. The walls deep within the Librarium look far out into the cold vastness of space further than any brother. Their sight piercing the encouraging black veil for only a second to see shrieking and immemorial lunacy, with eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled, for their minds to then be scorched.

What they all see is a senseless, mechanical, and uncaring universe. Mankind dissolves in the meaningless when impermanence is the only real thing. They have tried for so long to look away and to wake from these terrible dreams but with no understanding their minds are pulled and stretched further. The strain is almost too much for some. Staring deep into the void for so long it now only stares back, as a contradicting reflection of what they have become, Reclusive, Withdrawn, Taciturn; Denizens of the deep.

No ordinary Denizen will be remembered for all legacies will be burned but, the stars will live on. To recount such tales only delays the inevitable entropic devouring of such. For that the most solemn of causes is that of the Apothecaron; to only prepare for a future that does not exist. The millennia of screeching divinations and torturous dreams have left only a cold senseless taste of hopelessness. Their action cannot be compared to the fate that awaits us all, it will all be dust. Humanities time has come, no longer belonging in the only place they have ever known. Nothing can save you from the inevitable terror that we should all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

That tenant disturbs the Ecclesiarchy for not only do they deny the existence of their God but, all that it opposes. All that is supposedly defends against. To find a follower of the Imperial Cult not openly hostile to what they consider such blasphemy will be a darkest day indeed. To perpetuate such an idea of a deity that can save us from the unsavable, only serves to deny that we are alone, and hopeless in the grandest of schemes. Realisation of the inevitable fate that belongs to us all is creeping into our galaxy, like the tendrilled Void Stalker of the Warp with their pray. We could never fathom, fully understand, or explain fate but it is nearly upon us, and it will become known as a blessed release for our fate is no longer in anyones hands.

Understanding that there is only Xenos and Mankind in this tumultuous galaxy, Gods are only considered omniscient from not being able to understand and obey a set of laws. Though all Xenos are dangerous to mankind, they are neither good nor evil, the greatest of which are merely incomprehensible, cosmic forces, that our notions of morality have no significance too. They exist in cosmic realms beyond our understanding. While the Deathwatch and Ordo Xenos mode operati are considered narrow and flawed, for the Abyssi to be assigned to a Watch Station or Fortress is one of the last remaining noble causes in the galaxy.

They see their own splendour as that unwillingly bestowed upon. In the darkest millennium in needlessly stands out with towering majesty to give hope to those that have none. For we all go into the ground a few feet in order blindly and dumbly to rot and disappear forever.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Minigiant

Bjorn Firewalker · October 4, 2017

Humanities time has come, no longer belonging in the only place they have ever known. Nothing can save you from the inevitable terror that we should all fear, even those you call Gods of ruinous powers. There are no gods!

Such beliefs must never be admitted in public, considering the Inquisition may see such "deviant" beliefs as grounds to purge the Chapter. Personally, I think it's so depressing, it strains the audience's ability to "suspend disbelief" regarding a supersoldier who's renowned for fighting on, no matter the odds. If the someone actually believes this, why hasn't he committed suicide already?

I think a Robert E. Howard-type of attitude is better.

Cthulhu: "Humanity's time is at an end."

Conan the Space Marine: "I will fight to delay that end!"

Cthulhu cultist: "Nothing can save you from the inevitable terror that we should all fear."

Conan: "I will fight on, regardless!"

Cthulhu: "There are no gods!"

Conan: "I have never needed their aid!"

Cthulhu: "You shall..." (Conan grabs the cultist's throat, and swings him like an oversized whip, at Cthulhu's face.) "Ow! What...? Ow! But I'm...! Ow! How...? Ow!"

Conan: "Go back to hell!"

Edited October 4, 2017 by Bjorn Firewalker

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Index Astartes: Denizens of the Deep

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