The Black Legion

[Sete]

I could never finish this novel... not nearly as good as the last one. Story is not nearly as detailed and well thought... seems like he was just going for the easy play to his fanboys.

Yea his Abby fan boys! shame on you! Shame!

While in my hot headed days I would usually agree, (yes I'm still salty! So salty snow won't even stick to me!) I think this is not fair on ADB. My personal opinion. He is still a traitor and a heretic. But the book was well delivered.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Abbadon beating Sigismund - you don't see it here but there are a lot of players who said this was a cheap play and also not possible according to fluff. That is my number one gripe and Chaos fanbois were fist pumping for days if not weeks or even months. Another thing is that Abbadon and many of his lackies come across as likable fellas which if you weren't paying attention often the dialog could come across as Imperial Space Marines. The first novel I found Abbadon believable but now it is like he is some kind of saviour - sorry don't buy it. It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

[Khornestar]

 not possible according to fluff.

 

Addressed to a guy who literally writes the fluff.

[A D-B]

It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

 

Ah, favouritism and bias. The most ludicrous of accusations. As stated earlier in the thread:

 

"Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular.

 

As usual, both things are famously things only bitter fans of various IPs tend to think or assume, and have no space in any professional's mindset. Or, indeed, reality. But it's almost always the first line of accusation for drek-level criticism, and the line of nonsense all authors ignore. Y'know when authors/directors/musicians say "Not all criticism is equally valid"? This is the front lines of what we mean."

 

For more on this, and a lot of Chaos chatter besides:

 

http://theimperialtruth.libsyn.com/episode-067-adb-and-john-french

 

Interview starts 20 minutes in. Enjoy!

[Rob P]

You obviously adore the loyalist legions.

 

Grey Knights and Wolves were epic in The Emperor's Gift.

[A D-B]

 

 not possible according to fluff.

 

Addressed to a guy who literally writes the fluff.

 

Even if I didn't, it's irrelevant. You've got to abandon nuance and look at it from a simplistic (and wrong) POV. You need to assume that authors dislike one faction, so elevate others over them -- as some fans do in their heads, and like those fans would do if they were in a position to do so in the IP. That's why some fans fear it so much and see it everywhere; they can't imagine anyone not doing it. So any time someone disagrees with their perspective, the only defence they have is that person knows less about the lore than them, and has made a mistake due to bias.

 

And you also need to abandon any nuance of discussing these things with people in the know, or planning novels with a small group of people, or the constant back and forth with IP folks, as well as discarding any nuances in perspective, context, and circumstances surrounding any fight between two characters. It has to be black and white, perfectly simple, Character A has more Mana (or whatever) than Character B, and the only thing that can happen is Character A winning all the time because you like him best, and can't grasp why Character B might win instead. 

 

And if Character B wins in a book? See Point #'1. It must be author bias, and a mistake.

 

And on it goes...

 

The Ciiirrrrrcle of Liiiiiiiife.

[bluntblade]

Abbadon's a saviour to a bunch of unapologetic villains. The narrator cheerfully admits to all sorts of crimes.

 

As for not possible in fluff... how many more caveats could AD-B have added? Throughout the Heresy series, Abaddon is mentioned alongside Sigismund (and Sevatar, Khârn and others) as the very cream of the Legions. Then you have Sigismund a thousand years old, facing Abaddon rocking two weapons and not even seeming to parry his attacks. He wounds Abaddon so badly that the Warmaster needs several new vital organs.

 

Apart from anything else... isn't it a bit tedious to have an unbeatable hero? My favourite take on Sigismund so far has been him nearly losing fights and winning through. Are you saying you want Space Marine On God Mode as a character?

[Rob P]

More important question - Is Sigismund Achilles or Diomedes?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here are several cases of obvious favoritism:

 

Gav Thorpe and Phil Kelly - Eldar

Graham McNeil & Pete Haines - Iron Warriors

 

It happens, and it used to happen a lot. I think with new CEO things have changed a lot so it is not as easy to do. It is obvious you love on Lorgar totally rewriting his character.

 

" Then you have Sigismund a thousand years old, facing Abaddon rocking two weapons and not even seeming to parry his attacks. He wounds Abaddon so badly that the Warmaster needs several new vital organs."

 

Standard rebuttal there.

[bluntblade]

It's a valid rebuttal. Like seriously, you've essentially demanded that canon be overturned, one of the key pillars of the setting be overturned, so that your favourite can win every fight he ever takes part in.

[LJF]

Abbadon beating Sigismund - you don't see it here but there are a lot of players who said this was a cheap play and also not possible according to fluff. That is my number one gripe and Chaos fanbois were fist pumping for days if not weeks or even months. Another thing is that Abbadon and many of his lackies come across as likable fellas which if you weren't paying attention often the dialog could come across as Imperial Space Marines. The first novel I found Abbadon believable but now it is like he is some kind of saviour - sorry don't buy it. It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

IIRC the whole point of this series is to portray Abaddon as a legit threat to the Imperium. Some people just want to call him Failbaddon the Harmless forever but that also doesn't make much sense according to fluff (not to mention how childish it is). Furthermore his achievements so far can definetely be called questionable. Some say that Horus 2.0 being just a flawed clone and not really a primarch allowed Abaddon to kill him which really cheapens his victory. As for Sigismund he was a 1000 year old fart slowed by injuries and he was still able to deal Abaddon almost a fatal injury even though Abby was in terminator armor and by all rights he should tear Sigismund limb from limb in like 2 seconds. For this I could call out ADB and say he obviously adores BT. It's a matter of perspective.

[bluntblade]

And, torn in two, Sigismund was still trying to finish the job.

 

Really, you might as well go "Gil-Galad should have totally won against Sauron because he was the best".

[MrDarth151]

 

It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

 

Ah, favouritism and bias. The most ludicrous of accusations.

 

I don't mean that as an insult, but if the issue keeps rising up, would it not be prudent to address it, rather than dismiss it?

[Sete]

If ADB adores BT that much why doesn't he write more about them! WAKE UP SHEEPLE! :D

 

And Gil Galad (and Elendil) actually defeated Sauron and died in the process. Isildur just got the spoils.

And don't forget Sauron was a Maiar, and Gil Galad despite his awesomeness, (I still prefer Glorfindel) was just an elf a few levels down powerwise.

[Khornestar]

He addressed it like 5 posts up.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You have to write some stuff just coz if you know what I mean. One of the things that has always struck me as odd was the portayal of Khârn in Betrayer and his 'brotherly' relationship with Argul Tal (sp?).

[Enosh]

 

It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

 

Ah, favouritism and bias. The most ludicrous of accusations. As stated earlier in the thread:

 

"Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular.

 

As usual, both things are famously things only bitter fans of various IPs tend to think or assume, and have no space in any professional's mindset. Or, indeed, reality. But it's almost always the first line of accusation for drek-level criticism, and the line of nonsense all authors ignore. Y'know when authors/directors/musicians say "Not all criticism is equally valid"? This is the front lines of what we mean."

 

For more on this, and a lot of Chaos chatter besides:

 

http://theimperialtruth.libsyn.com/episode-067-adb-and-john-french

 

Interview starts 20 minutes in. Enjoy!

 

 

I find it hard to believe that someone can be 100% professional and not get their views and biases into their work, especially when it comes to works of art like writing

and really, reading the scene where a shard of the Emperor shows up, tells Khayon how amazing he is and then gets shot and :cusss itself, well I'm going with "death of the author" here

 

although really it's just this one scene that bothers me

[Khornestar]

I don't understand why it's not possible to just say: "I didn't like it" as opposed to pooping all over stuff and insisting that one's preferences are both superior to those who disagree and simultaneously correct in some objective way.

 

*edit*

I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't admit to doing this myself, for whatever it's worth. But I fully acknowledge my jackassery in doing so.

 

I mean, you can criticize a book full of typos and grammatical errors as being poorly edited. That isn't the same as saying Sigismund should have beaten Abaddon and because it didn't happen, AD-B is a hack.

[bluntblade]

If ADB adores BT that much why doesn't he write more about them! WAKE UP SHEEPLE! :D

And Gil Galad (and Elendil) actually defeated Sauron and died in the process. Isildur just got the spoils.

And don't forget Sauron was a Maiar, and Gil Galad despite his awesomeness, (I still prefer Glorfindel) was just an elf a few levels down powerwise.

I meant like destroyed his spirit utterly. Should've clarified, was filed by silliness.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sigismund is just one issue with the novel... it is a big one for me. Now like I said the characters seem much too likable for me... often the dialog is akin to what Imperial Space Marines would say to each other IMO. Khayon was very interesting in the first novel but fell flat for me this one. I doubt if there is another book in this series I would pick it up. And finally as a reference authors like Dan Abnett I never felt like he favored any of the characters in particular.

[helterskelter]

Sigismund is just one issue with the novel... it is a big one for me. Now like I said the characters seem much too likable for me... often the dialog is akin to what Imperial Space Marines would say to each other IMO. Khayon was very interesting in the first novel but fell flat for me this one. I doubt if there is another book in this series I would pick it up. And finally as a reference authors like Dan Abnett I never felt like he favored any of the characters in particular.

This is balls, Dan suffers from his comic book work. And wet leopards.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Can you cite an specific examples for any of his 40k work ?

[bluntblade]

You mean you want them to go "rah, I can't wait to massacre innocents?"

 

Telemachon goes mortal/mutant hunting on Maleum and he's whooping like an excited kid. Khayon offhandedly mentions that he enjoys binding daemons into the bodies of Loyalist warriors. The villainy is all there.

[helterskelter]

Can you cite an specific examples for any of his 40k work ?

Any use of Curze

[A D-B]

 

 

It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

 

Ah, favouritism and bias. The most ludicrous of accusations.

 

I don't mean that as an insult, but if the issue keeps rising up, would it not be prudent to address it, rather than dismiss it?

 

How? When you know full well, as I've now said a third time in this thread:

 

"On the contrary, literally every author in an IP gets that accusation, and many get it far more than I do. You even see codex authors getting it en masse. The ubiquity of it across all IPs-- especially 40K-- is just one of the many ways to know it's nonsense. Authors don't portray their favourite things as "better", and they don't play to their "fanboys". Indeed, 99% of the time, "fanboys" are just readers who like what someone wrote or directed, and they're just called "fanboys" by people angry that something is popular.

 

As usual, both things are famously things only bitter fans of various IPs tend to think or assume, and have no space in any professional's mindset. Or, indeed, reality. But it's almost always the first line of accusation for drek-level criticism, and the line of nonsense all authors ignore. Y'know when authors/directors/musicians say "Not all criticism is equally valid"? This is the front lines of what we mean."

 

Literally every author, director, and designer in an IP gets this. It's the go-to insult for certain kinds of readers to throw out there without any real thought or need for evidence, because the taint of bias is so sticky and heinous, that it's easy to believe. Again, because the people saying it often are biased themselves, and are coming at the IP from a position of feeling wronged by something they've read.

 

I get it significantly less than a lot of 40K creatives - the difference is, I do address it in the course of these discussions, and even in the interview I linked, whereas the others laugh it off and ignore it, when they notice it at all. So you're being doubly disingenuous by suggesting it crops up significantly for me, and that I don't address it. I can name a dozen 40K creatives that get it constantly, based more on memes than reality, and they never address it at all because they know it's nonsense. Plus, addressing it at all only awakens interest in the notion. 

 

It might be worth accepting that, as criticisms go, it's not really on the valid end of the spectrum, but is an easy meme go-to to sound like you're taking someone down.

 

You sound like you want this to be true. I get that! I'd want it to be true, too, if I disagreed with 40K's lore. I'd be similarly desperate for the person I perceived as responsible to be outed as biased, and that he should 'deal with the accusations' as if they were valid. But that doesn't change the fact the accusation is silly and trite, and something every single IP creative gets-- many far more often than me. They're just silent about it because it's too laughable to respond to most of the time. Listen to that interview with me and John - who, incidentally, is a high-up in the IP Dept. it's an accusation that mystifies him, too. He was amazed and confused when he started getting it.

 

EDIT: You'll note, I don't respond to most praise, or to most criticism, about my work. I let people think what they like, and love it or hate it as they will. None of my business. Someone not liking pacing, characterisation, whatever else. All good. I respond to misunderstandings of a text, misunderstandings of the lore, or accusations about my integrity and professionalism. Those are the things I say "Uh, no..." to, because they're not based on opinions, they're either mistakes, invented guesses, or lies.