The Black Legion

[bluntblade]

He got accused of doing down the IW, right?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Are you satisfied with this novel and where would you rank it compared to your other work ?

 

For me as a reader the spoiler was out there way before the book ever hit the shelves and it was literally impossible to ignore.

[cheywood]

Can you cite an specific examples for any of his 40k work ?

Gaunt's infiltration of Gereon where the team eliminates a squad of traitor marines is often cited as an example of Abnett's bias. I don't view it as such (protagonists can have crazy wins from time to time in my book), but some others seem to.

 

Personally I don't really understand the concept of author bias. If I'm writing something for money I'd want that something to be of the highest possible quality I can make it, and to appeal to as vast an audience as I can reach. That way my something is both worth reading and profitable if I'm lucky. If instead of doing that I'm writing an entire novel (which takes months and months) just so my favorite imaginary characters can win an imaginary fight in an imaginary universe and be more cooler in an imaginary afterlife where imaginary creations go, then I probably need to be placed under heavy sedation in a mental health facility.

 

Writers live in the real world, just like all of us (well except Oscar Wilde and Hunter. S. Thompson). They are, I have to assume, more concerned with real world metrics of quality like critical reception and sales than something as insubstantial as who 'wins' an imaginary fight. In 40k especially winning often just means dying later so why would writers be concerned with granting their characters Pyrrhic victories? It just doesn't follow.

[Marshal Loss]

Now like I said the characters seem much too likable for me... often the dialog is akin to what Imperial Space Marines would say to each other IMO.

 

What exactly do you expect Chaos Space Marines to say to each other?

 

'GREETINGS, BARGALARG, LORD OF DARKNESS,' screamed Chaos Marine 1, in the process of fondling a skull. 'HOW GOES THE WHOLESALE SLAUGHTER OF HUMANITY TODAY?'

'EXCELLENT BILBATROP, DEVOURER OF EBULLIENCE,' replied a Chaos Marine covered in so many horns he looked like a porcupine. 'I WAS JUST GOING TO EVISCERATE A THOUSAND VIRGINS BEFORE HEADING TO ISRAEL AND THROWING ROCKS AT BOTH PALESTINIAN AND ISRAELI CHILDREN.'

'STOP BEING FRIENDLY TO EACH OTHER,' said a third Chaos Space Marine, who had facial features roughly analogous to a dolphin. 'WE'RE THE BAD GUYS. BE MORE EVIL.'

 

The reason why his anti-heroes are so popular is that they aren't depicted as evil caricatures of Loyalist Space Marines. Read between the lines. Khayon, Abaddon and the rest do horrific things in a fashion so casual it barely gets highlighted in the text; they don't view themselves as the villains. That casual acceptance of evil is precisely what makes them so incredibly diabolic. And as for the comradely, the Black Legion is literally built to provide the sense of brotherhood and purpose that these warriors had lost in the wake of the Heresy. Space Marines are still Space Marines, no matter the environment you place them in.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Oh yeah I forgot all about Gaunt... at one time he was like IG Jebus... was super annoying.

 

"Personally I don't really understand the concept of author bias. If I'm writing something for money I'd want that something to be of the highest possible quality I can make it, and to appeal to as vast an audience as I can reach. "

 

This is extremely idealistic IMO - some people will change this simply because they can.

 

 

"The reason why his anti-heroes are so popular is that they aren't depicted as evil caricatures of Loyalist Space Marines."

 

Sometimes it works well but like Khârn in Betrayer, no it is like 'golly gee?'.

[cheywood]

Oh yeah I forgot all about Gaunt... at one time he was like IG Jebus... was super annoying.

 

"Personally I don't really understand the concept of author bias. If I'm writing something for money I'd want that something to be of the highest possible quality I can make it, and to appeal to as vast an audience as I can reach. "

 

This is extremely idealistic IMO - some people will change this simply because they can.

Wait what does that mean? Some people won't want to write the best possible book they can for the widest possible audience they can reach with their subject matter? I don't think that's true, or at least I can't see a reason for it. Sure not every book ends up being the best possible book it can be, and yeah I imagine most adult romance writers aren't concerned with how their books do among 22 year old males. However I think the spirit of the idea, that writers want to write good fiction that appeals to a large enough audience to be profitable, is pretty solid.

 

Why wouldn't someone want that? I struggle to believe anyone chosen to write for BL would say 'I could do an in-depth analysis of the Raven Guard chapter as a military organization in the galaxy at large and how the experience of being enslaved all those thousands of years ago still echoes through their bones, but I'd rather just make them seem like albino-solid snakes who could take over the galaxy if they'd weren't too busy listening to Black Veil Brides and crying about Corax leaving'. Who would do that? Besides, how could a story like that get through editorial? It's not like ADB just goes to the BL website, hits post on some secret portal, and all of sudden novels rain from the skies.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol fb it not like everything published by BL is a gem... seriously. Some stuff is just a way to advertise new product.

[bluntblade]

We're well aware. But the BL series is clearly not a simple advert series.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Oh yeah I forgot all about Gaunt... at one time he was like IG Jebus... was super annoying.

 

"Personally I don't really understand the concept of author bias. If I'm writing something for money I'd want that something to be of the highest possible quality I can make it, and to appeal to as vast an audience as I can reach. "

 

This is extremely idealistic IMO - some people will change this simply because they can.

 

 

"The reason why his anti-heroes are so popular is that they aren't depicted as evil caricatures of Loyalist Space Marines."

 

Sometimes it works well but like Khârn in Betrayer, no it is like ':cuss?'.

 

Wait, is your argument really "it's idealistic to assume that people will resist injecting bias because people are horrible, therefore this person is doing it"? That's a really bleak world-view you have there.

 

And as others have asked, and you ignore, what do you want Chaos Marines to sound like? Constantly referring to how they want to defile the innocent and bathe in blood? Everybody holding conversations using only the words kill, maim, and burn? The dialog is akin to what Loyalists would say because at their core they're both Astartes. How is this a surprise to you, that Chaos Marines have personality traits beyond "insane gibbering"?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Way to go totally overboard. I see myself as have a more realistic PoV than you - that's all.

[cheywood]

Lol fb it not like everything published by BL is a gem... seriously. Some stuff is just a way to advertise new product.

Of course BL puts out its fair share of works that aren't incredible or have a limited scope. My point has never been that all BL writers produce great content. However I think it's a gigantic leap in logic to say that a writer didn't try or 'wrote for his fanboys' because the end result is subjectively bad to your eyes, or even the eyes of a large portion of the community. Couldn't they just be doing the best they can with a challenging brief, or make some unfortunate decisions plot-wise, or struggle to capture the feel of a particular character? Why assume malice when honest failure stands as an alternative? I've met a lot more incompetent people than I have evil people in my life.

 

Speaking big picture, BL's authors are, as far as I can tell (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), almost all freelancers. If they don't like what they're being commissioned to do, or get tired of the universe, they can always walk away. There's no dungeon and Kathy Bates isn't going to break anyone's legs.

[bluntblade]

If he's gone overboard, it's partly because you pushed him.

 

Seriously, how do you want the Black Legion to talk? Surely the fact that Abaddon and co speak so matter-of-fact about their crimes makes them more villainous. Or would you prefer:

 

"I like to tear the heroic souls out of heroes from loyal Chapters and bind evil daemons into their bodies. It makes a deliciously evil and villainous insult." Because that's the substance of Khayon's words, only he's beating you over the head with his badness.

[mc warhammer]

Abbadon beating Sigismund - you don't see it here but there are a lot of players who said this was a cheap play and also not possible according to fluff. That is my number one gripe and Chaos fanbois were fist pumping for days if not weeks or even months. Another thing is that Abbadon and many of his lackies come across as likable fellas which if you weren't paying attention often the dialog could come across as Imperial Space Marines. The first novel I found Abbadon believable but now it is like he is some kind of saviour - sorry don't buy it. It is obvious you adore the traitor legions.

 

i really don't get these factions between 40k fandom. so i'll let that alone

 

but "villains"" viewing themselves as heroes and saviours is not uncommon. it's even more expected if the story is being told from a heavily biased pov (ie: one of the chaos dudes himself)

[Lord_Caerolion]

Way to go totally overboard. I see myself as have a more realistic PoV than you - that's all.

 

You've stated that people rejecting bias is something that "some people will change this simply because they can". You're assuming that people will purposefully make biased books just to screw with people, or to use your words 'because they can". You're accusing him of having pro-Traitor bias, ignoring that some of his other major novels are about the Grey Knights/Space Wolves, Custodes, and Black Templars, with what is pretty widely regarded as an amazing portrayal of the Blood Angels in the Heresy era, and your evidence against this is "but I'm cynical, and the Black Library have released bad books".

 

It's not going overboard, it's just calling you on your faulty logic and empty arguments. Your argument is "he's biased because he had Sigismund get killed (which, again, ignores that he wrote the awesome Helsreach, which showed nothing but the Black Templars being awesome), and his Chaos Marines can speak in functional conversations". Want to prove me wrong? Give points other than "A D-B doesn't like Loyalists", and tell us how you'd rather the Black Legion spoke to differentiate them from Loyalists.

[Kelborn]

What's even the point of this redundant discussion?

 

It is rather obvious that certain statements were made to provoke. If one doesn't enjoy the book, then so be it. It's of absolutely no use to blame the author for that and call him biased or prefering traitors or whatever. No author will ever please everybody. Not Dan. Not Chris. Not Aaron. Not John. No one. There will always be someone, who is disappointed or had different expectations.

 

Aaron and imho most of BL writers are consistent and offer a GREAT variety of povs from all kind of characters.

Imagine Battle of the Fang without the Thousand Sons pov. They talk like normal Marines, as well.

 

I, for one, was not interested in Talon of Horus and further in the Black Legion itself. But when I finally read it, I fell in love with it. It reminded me of the Night Lords. A bunch of outcasts, trying to stay alive and achieve something.

 

It is ok, if one wants to say his concerns about a book.

But this nagging is far too stretched by now and should put to rest.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Which novels is he best known for - traitor legions set during the Heresy.

 

My point about dialog is as follows - an Imperial Marine behaves following a very specific set of conditions which is largely due to conditioning and loyalty. A traitor has cast those things aside, so no they won't sound the same when they talk and it goes beyond speaking casually about horrendous things because for example there are consequences.

[mc warhammer]

from what i've seen, if someone approaches their entertainment from the pov that things they don't like are personal attacks and/or favouritism with an unwillingness to give creatives the benefit of doubt... they rarely change their minds. it's more about a worldview than a misunderstanding or an opinion.

keep writing responses for the rest of us, though. i enjoy the heck out of them

so far black legion is enjoyable for me. and even though i've never given a rats about sigismund, i'm kinda looking forward to reading the confrontation partly because of da hype

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is not epic in any way... anti climatic.

[mc warhammer]

as for chaos marine dialogue- i've found adb's take is to make them a lot more...human...than the more rigid imperial marines.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They would be anything but though, I guess that is one of the reasons I don't care for it.

[mc warhammer]

They would be anything but though, I guess that is one of the reasons I don't care for it.

 

depends on your interpretation. does chaos make one inhuman or more human than human? does it exacerbate certain human traits to extremes? maybe it's a case by case thing...some csm will be unrecognisable, others may just be a willful (in their mind)  version of who they once were

 

a different or new perspective isn't wrong. how interesting you find it varies, of course

 

 

[bluntblade]

You still haven't put forward any sense of the way you think they should interact.

 

As for the fight, it's allowing the audience to fill in the blanks rather than attempt a blow by blow or "it was unsurpassed in its breathtakingly epic hugeness". Either of those would only disappoint.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

They would be anything but though, I guess that is one of the reasons I don't care for it.

 

depends on your interpretation. does chaos make one inhuman or more human than human? does it exacerbate certain human traits to extremes? maybe it's a case by case thing...some csm will be unrecognisable, others may just be a willful (in their mind)  version of who they once were

 

a different or new perspective isn't wrong. how interesting you find it varies, of course

 

 

 

 

 

I just want it to be believable for me . For example one thing that always bothered me was how Argal Tul was often presented as saintly while in fact he was a true monster in the complete sense. Maybe he was a hypocrite as well - not sure really.

[Tarvek Val]

They would be anything but though, I guess that is one of the reasons I don't care for it.

 

Where in any established fluff is this stated?

 

Sure, a possessed Marine will be nothing like a standard Space Marine, or even a standard human. And certainly, it is reasonable to guess that many Chaos Marines will be warped by their patriot power into something that is far from the man they once were; such as a Plague Marine being permanently infested with diseases or a Thousand Sons marine mutating into a new form that is more pleasing to Tzeentch.

 

That said, the definition of a Chaos Space Marine according to Lexicanum is literally: "a former Space Marine of the Imperium of Man who has chosen to abandon the service of the Emperor and dedicate himself to the service of Chaos to achieve his own ends."

 

Nowhere does it say that he, by default, becomes a raving lunatic, crazed cultist, or sadistic torturer. If every single Chaos Marine was a lunatic that was incapable of stringing two sentences together, Chaos Space Marines would be unable to exist as convincing villains, much less compelling anti-heroes. Such warriors would have no concept of strategy, co-operation (even to serve their own ends), or efficiency.

 

Im my humble opinion, it is books such as those of the Night Lords trilogy and the Black Legion series that offer the most compelling insight into the Traitor Legions, where super-human warriors butcher the men and women they were once sworn to protect as easily as they breathe. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is like an alternative view point for me maybe you can understand and while I don't expect any swirling of mustaches I like my villains as obviously evil - otherwise what is the point ? All CSM are evil.