bluntblade Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Argel Tal was not presented as a saint, but a self-aware monster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023229 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Remember how caring he was though ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarvek Val Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Well, just look at the anti-heroes of the Night Lords trilogy. Variel the Flayer? The dude has the skinned faces of human children on his shoulder pads! When he was with the Red Corsairs, one of his comrades got injured and Variel, for all intents and purposes, told him: "oh well, you're screwed! Have fun choking on your own blood and dying, because I won't help you." Cyrion literally went around killing random people just because. Uzas was a blood-hungry lunatic. And yet, there's more to them than just that. Imagine if every single loyalist Space Marine just walked around monotonously chanting "For the Empra! Purge the xenos! Death to chaos! I love big guns!" How boring would that be? The fact that they have character arcs and development is what makes them even remotely interesting to read about. For example, I love the arc of the Ultramarines omnibuses (spoilers for said books below). Uriel Ventris and his sergeant, Pasanius, are the primary protagonists of the Ultramarines novels. Over the course of one of the books, they break the Codex Astartes and are banished to a daemon world to atone for their sins or die in honor. They manage to defeat the machinations of an Iron Warrior named Honsou, and return to the Chapter in glory. That character arc is what makes the characters likable; the fact that they are still capable of making all-too-human mistakes and having to atone for their errors makes them relatable instead of them being stiff, unchanging characters. I just cannot get behind the idea of all Traitor Marines needing to be "Chaos-y". Final note: I'm not going to delve deeply into Argel Tal, because that is not the purpose of this thread. However, he is one of my absolute favorite characters in the 30k universe, precisely because I find him a very compelling character. He is a willing pawn in Lorgar's schemes and the game of the gods, and he willingly sacrifices himself to prove Lorgar's faith right by going into the warp itself. He cares about Cyrene because she is the last link to the humanity that he has otherwise lost; he knew her before he became the first of the Vakrah Jal, and she is the last thing that reminds him of the honorable warrior he once was. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 This feels nonconstructive. The Night Lords, Word Bearers, and Black Legion characters are extremely well received. I know people who've never picked up a Codex that think Abaddon is one of the cooler characters in the last few books hes read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023240 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 It is like an alternative view point for me maybe you can understand and while I don't expect any swirling of mustaches I like my villains as obviously evil - otherwise what is the point ? All CSM are evil. but there are degrees of anything and also, isn't there progression along a scale depending on what point in a character's timeline the story is told at? you don't always go from 0-100 on the evil scale as far as i understand, black legion is from the early days of their csm careers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023247 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Thing is, they are callous and cruel. Falkus carried a slowly dying enemy as a banner for ages, they ignore their millions of slaves for the most part until there's a need for cannon fodder. It's just not rammed down your throat because the author has other things to do than remind you that the premier villains of 40K are bad people. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023248 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Yeah true but I really think by that point in time they are as corrupt as ever... time will only make them more bitter not better if you will . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023249 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Remember how caring he was though ? Still a monster, and he knew it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023250 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarvek Val Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Thing is, they are callous and cruel. Falkus carried a slowly dying enemy as a banner for ages, they ignore their millions of slaves for the most part until there's a need for cannon fodder. It's just not rammed down your throat because the author has other things to do than remind you that the premier villains of 40K are bad people. Amen to that! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 He came across as in a constant state of denial IMO . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023254 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 denial can certainly be a part of his character arc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023257 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarvek Val Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 He came across as in a constant state of denial IMO . That's an absolutely fair stance to take, and one that I respect, as everyone gets something different from every book they read. I choose to believe that he realizes what he is, but seeks something more than just slaughter and destruction nonetheless. He cares about Cyrene Valantion, a blind, mortal woman, because she reminds him of the future that he is working towards under the gods that he has taken as his own; a future where humanity will be free of what the Word Bearers considered the shackles of humanity and mortality. He is a monster that still has a heart, no matter how blackened it became over time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I think Argel Tal definitely knew he was evil, he definitely said as much to Khârn. It's why he cared so much for Cyrene, because she put a human face to why they did it. They may be carrying out the most evil acts, but it's the Primordial Truth, and who are they to deny that? Ri... Right? He didn't deny what he was doing, he was just trying to do his best that it was for a purpose, that they weren't just mindless monsters committing atrocities for no reason. The characters in Black Legion are certainly just as evil. Khayon kills several of his former brethren through possessing one with a Lord of Change without blinking, and cares basically nothing for the slaves, only that they serve a purpose, even if it's just as sustenance for his pet Eldar. Plus, let's not forget Telemachon, who's just... ew... I mean, it's not like Black Library could release a book at goes into in-depth detail of the process of Khayon eviscerating the virgin sacrifice as he summons Daemons into battle to aid him :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I like how the portrayals of Traitors are becoming less and less cartoonishly villainous. Not all should be evil, slavering madmen chained to the will of Chaos. It's good that some Traitors essentially view service to the Imperium as slavery to the Emperor (or to the High Lords post-Heresy). They ask fundamental questions such as... 1. Is the Emperor's vision a worthy one? It prioritises species survival but how about quality of existence? Is long-term survival under tyranny preferable to short-term self-actualisation? Perhaps there are other ways to secure humanity's long-term future. 2. Is an inhuman tyrant worthy of absolute loyalty? To everyone else, the Emperor might as well be an alien. Do we all just follow the him because he is powerful and our creator? Is that sufficient reason? 3. If it's about following the mightiest, aren't the Chaos gods even older and more powerful? Don't they allow more freedom under their banner? 4. Why can't I be my own master...or at least, why can't the Legions rule themselves? Why serve inferior mortals...why obey distant gods competely removed from my level of experience. Why not be non-Chaos and non-Imperial? Between the Imperium and Chaos, is the former really the lesser of two evils? Is there a third option? In a way, isn't Abaddon trying to set up his own galactic Ultramar? ---------- With all that said, I didn't like the idea of Sig dying via losing a duel to Abaddon. This is from a place of my own factional bias. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023342 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Well, Abaddon does acknowledge that if Sigismund had been at his prime, as Abaddon still was due to Warp shenanigans, then Sigismund would have beaten him all over the ship. As it was, he only survived due to yet more Warp shenanigans allowing him to regrow his ruined organs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023353 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 He came across as in a constant state of denial IMO . He has a speech in Betrayer about how when he dies he will join the ranks of cowards whose lifelong excuse was "I was just following orders." Well, Abaddon does acknowledge that if Sigismund had been at his prime, as Abaddon still was due to Warp shenanigans, then Sigismund would have beaten him all over the ship. As it was, he only survived due to yet more Warp shenanigans allowing him to regrow his ruined organs. Nah, that was just good old organ cloning. Which at least used to be a common enough procedure, if slower than augmetics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Argal Tal is a fantastic character precisely because of his tortured hypocritical conflict between following the truth even though he knows it might not be the ‘good’ path. Paraphrasing because it’s been a while, but as he says to Khârn, ‘We chose the wrong side’. When Khârn asks how he knows that; ‘Bedause neither side is right.’ Argal Tal is excellent. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023374 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarvek Val Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Argal Tal is a fantastic character precisely because of his tortured hypocritical conflict between following the truth even though he knows it might not be the ‘good’ path. Paraphrasing because it’s been a while, but as he says to Khârn, ‘We chose the wrong side’. When Khârn asks how he knows that; ‘Bedause neither side is right.’ Argal Tal is excellent. Argel Tal is quite probably my favorite character in the entire Heresy. There's so much depth and complexity to his character! He's the only Heresy-era Word Bearer I don't hate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Now one thing I would like expanded upon is the fact that BT and BL should absolutely have a rivalry. Like Ultramarines/Word Bearers, Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors. BT should have an oath of Vengeance on Black Legion/Abbadon that should supplant everything else. Also do they have Sigismund remains in the Eternal Crusader? Do they have his Black Sword in there aswell? So many questions that need answering. I sincerely hope that when Abbadon and Black Legion get a much needed revamp, and show their face once again in the Galactic affairs, Black Templars should be in the first line of defence(or in this case attack). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelborn Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Now one thing I would like expanded upon is the fact that BT and BL should absolutely have a rivalry. Like Ultramarines/Word Bearers, Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors. BT should have an oath of Vengeance on Black Legion/Abbadon that should supplant everything else. Also do they have Sigismund remains in the Eternal Crusader? Do they have his Black Sword in there aswell? So many questions that need answering. I sincerely hope that when Abbadon and Black Legion get a much needed revamp, and show their face once again in the Galactic affairs, Black Templars should be in the first line of defence(or in this case attack). Oh please....let that come true. :O I absolutely agree with you. BTs Need some love and BLs role since the Fall of Cadia was rather underwhelming. Everyone thought that the 13th BC would be THE event / war of them all. But no, they nearly skipped it entirely. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I feel certain Sigs will eventually be resurrected coz you know ... You can't keep a good man down. <3 I can just imagine him entombed in Leviathan dreadnaught armor for the rematch ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 He's bones by now. There isn't even flesh to reanimate with the unholy Keys of Hel. And on that note, I'm done with this discussion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5023949 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Anything can and does happen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5024020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Anything can and does happen. Doesn't mean it should. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5024023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Sweet, resurrect him so Abaddon can slay him all over again. Take his skull twice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/57/#findComment-5024029 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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