8th Ed Codex on the way

[yellabelly]

Loving your work Momerathe!

 

Just shy of 50% isn't too bad for two snipers. It's also the threat they put characters under. Nobody wants to lose those buffs and auras, and just the threat of being sniped will cause a lot of people to play their characters more defensively.

[momerathe]

Cheers

 

I think I would still want 2x2 snipers against Guard, just for that second bite at the cherry (and given they're likely to have plenty of other officers). But you're right that the psychological effect is a big plus.

[Withershadow]

I only have 3 arquebuses sadly, so I am going to be trying to run 5-man ranger squads with a single sniper rifle.  Putting two in there more than doubles the cost of the unit and makes it a very attractive target I feel, whereas a single rifle squad is a 65-point unit.

 

On the other side of the spectrum, I think going full monty may be worthwhile (especially with Stygies or Lucius). 3 rifles, 7 ablative dudes in the way, and optimal positioning to get angles at those supporting backfield units.  If you put them along a short-edge on the side of the table somewhere, that 60" range can reach practically across the whole field of battle. 

 

I also think a pair of arc rifles for a 48-point unit is a pretty solid return on investment.  Those S6 AP-1 shots are actually a very decent profile for cheap infantry.  My current primary focus being on Guard, I'll probably hold off assembling my Skitarii until Cyraxus hits and we get Secutarii rules, but for now I'm looking at this for my 30 dudes:

 

10 Vanguard, arc pistol/taser goad, data-tether, 3x plasma calivers.

2x5 Rangers with 2 arc rifles

10 Rangers with 3 arquebus, can't decide on data-tether or omniscope.

 

Omniscope seems the better choice to improve odds of actually killing something (apply a +1 to saves to the chart on the previous page, and odds drop precipitously).  On the other hand, the data-tether is security against Battle Shock, and ensures you can maintain a 2+ to hit even if the opponent has some -1 to be hit shenanigans in place.

[OnboardG1]

Loving your work Momerathe!

 

Just shy of 50% isn't too bad for two snipers. It's also the threat they put characters under. Nobody wants to lose those buffs and auras, and just the threat of being sniped will cause a lot of people to play their characters more defensively.

 

They can also knock holes in tanks which is kind of great.

[Heliomanes]

Seems like the skitarii units really have 3 options. Bare bones 5 man squads for boots on the ground, cheap objective grabbers and troop choices to fill up those brigade and batallion detachments. Or 5 man squads with 2 special weapons and an omnispex. Those are efficient, still comparatively cheap, and they do well without using command points to buff them. Third is the full monty. 10 man squads with 3 special weapons and a data tether - so you can get +2 bs from using a command point on them, which is pretty good on a full squad.

[Withershadow]

I'm not sure omnispex is worth it on a 5-man squad.  It means you only have 2 ablative guys (one of them the alpha), before you start losing expensive models.  As I said above, I don't think I'm comfortable with putting two expensive arquebuses in a fragile 5-man unit, but a pair of cheap arc rifles sounds just fine.  In fact, with the arc rifles being so cheap (2 cost as much as an extra ranger), I wouldn't even bother with the naked squad.  And I would say these are options to build Rangers.  Vanguard are even more restricted, I think they are only potentially worth it if going full monty with the plasma calivers, since based on my math a few pages back, the radium carbines are better used shooting at the same stuff the plasma calivers want to target.

[momerathe]

10 Rangers with 3 arquebus, can't decide on data-tether or omniscope.

 

Omniscope seems the better choice to improve odds of actually killing something (apply a +1 to saves to the chart on the previous page, and odds drop precipitously).  On the other hand, the data-tether is security against Battle Shock, and ensures you can maintain a 2+ to hit even if the opponent has some -1 to be hit shenanigans in place.

My feeling is that cover is something that's present in every battle, while -1 to hit stuff is opponent specific. Of course, if you know in advance..

 

I'm not sure omnispex is worth it on a 5-man squad.  It means you only have 2 ablative guys (one of them the alpha), before you start losing expensive models.

 

By RAW there's nothing that stops you putting the Omnispex on an Arquebusier. I plan to take one, but in fairness I did have points left over.

[Withershadow]

That is true, although the model would look really goofy unless you glue a third arm to him. :P

 

-1 to be hit is definitely opponent specific (although almost everyone has an airborne unit), but Battle Shock is definitely a thing.  4 casualties could have you lose 3 more just from the morale check.

[Heliomanes]

I've been considering your criticisms a bit, and wanted to respond to them by laying out my reasoning a bit more thoroughly. I think you have to make a subjective valuation here - how many points are you willing to spend to make your unit somewhat effective? How much are you willing to cash out to give them some teeth? Both in points - and in how many command points you'd be willing to part with to maximize their utility.

Odds are you have to bring troop choices anyway, the more the merrier, so you get objective grabbers/campers and those lovely command points to play around with. I'm happy to spend the points to make 5 man units with arquebuses since I think (again, opinion) that they add something of value to my army without costing too much. Arc rifles add too little for their cost imho when you factor in the cost for the whole unit and what utility it has compared to the other options we have.

I'm not terribly bothered by the lacking survivability of 5 man squads either. To be fair, a 10 man skitarii unit is going to die to a light sneeze - at least in my local meta and the point levels we usually operate on. So we don't want to spend a lot of points on them, but we still have to give them enough utility to make the investment worthwhile. And - you make a comparatively cheap unit a tempting target, which can make the opposing player have to make some more choices.

The omnispex is, to my mind, a good option on these 5 man squads IF you invested in arquebuses since it's cheap and it maximizes utility IF you're unwilling to spend command points on them. If you want to spend CP, then the tether is better. So the tether is always better on 10 man squads, both because of the added importance of morale on larger squads, and because of the added synergy with the Skitarii stratagems. Omnispex is a trade - you retain your command points and give the little cybernetic troopers a scanner to help them out as a consolation prize. You trade a bit of utility and a few points for a command point.

[Vel'Cona]

A good solution to the Omnispex/arms issue is to give the sniper a servo-skull/cherub to carry it.  Great conversion opportunity, there!  :)

[Ammonius]

The way I'm doing my initial build for Vanguard and Rangers has as much to do with the amount of special weapons per kit as points cost. I've settled on the following compromise: I'm building 10-man Vanguard squads with triple Plasma and Data Tethers, and 5-man Ranger squads with double Arquebus and Omnispex. This makes the best use of the sprues I have on hand (I only had to buy one set of Plasma weapon/arms/backpack from eBay) and in the future, I can break down the Vanguard in to 5-man squads or build more Rangers to fill out the sniper teams. As I build toward a Brigade-sized force, we'll see if I end up wishing that I had more bare-bones squads or not.

[Prot]

I prefer Vanguards over Rangers. But only the big squads will get the toys for the Strategem use. Otherwise I foresee these little squads dying pretty fast as they'll be the only thing (aside from chicken walkers) advancing on objectives.

 

So far my lists have been Battalion + something else for 7 CP's but I find it's not enough... so I'm going to play more 5 man squads to get into a Brigade. I'm just not sure if it's worth it for a mere 2 more CP's. (I do actually enjoy the 10 man VG squads with 3 plasma + Strat).

[Vel'Cona]

Isn't a brigade +9 CP?  You'd get 12 total if you go for that build :)

[Ammonius]

Isn't a brigade +9 CP?  You'd get 12 total if you go for that build

Why yes, yes it is *chuckles in binary*

 

What's the point of having so many strategic toys if you can't really bludgeon your opponent with them :)

[Magos_Adephus]

I find using 5 man squads is more strategically viable. If you run them at counterpart squads then it forces the enemy to split their fire (which can be ineffective) or focus on wiping one squad, which lets the other do whatever they please.

 

Other thoughts, the more I go over the rules in my head the more I realize how much this codex is the ultimate essence of AdMech. In the fluff, the whole thing about the Martians is they have all the cool stuff BUT the Cult only let's them use it in the specific intended fuction. Land Raiders are fantastic troop transports and heavy support, but they were designed to be used by Astartes, so they shall be used by Astartes. Same with Chimeras, but those are for Guard because they were designed and built for weaker men.

 

Because of this, AdMech looks pretty weird, yeah. We don't have comparable function-comparable troops or armor (hell we don't have transports) that other factions have because we are so specialized. We have amazing Heavy Support, LoW, awesome Melee specialists, cancer rifles, tank killer snipers, and the ability to augment ourselves to best fit the situational need. But the units are still locked into their specific function because that's AdMech for ya.

 

Despite the tunnel vision all the units have, I think it can still be pieced together into a highly competitive and adaptable army, we'll just have to be more strategic with it and have plans and contingency plans, which ultimately is just more like AdMech.

[Prot]

Isn't a brigade +9 CP?  You'd get 12 total if you go for that build

 

lol. Yup. 

 

I'm at home with the flu today. 90% of what comes out of my mouth today is scrap code at best. :)

 

I have never played a Brigade with my Chaos/Ultra's. This will be a first for me but I play against Brigades...against Orks it is absolutely brutal because they're interrupting in CC every round. They will give me big probs locally. Well... them and Astra. They're great without a book, and kind of have a good match up vs. AdMech which is another reason I like Vanguard.

[dogfender]

I can only assume by the zero discussion of them is that servitors remain unchanged/ hot garbage? Edited September 28, 2017 by dogfender

[Magos_Adephus]

Bingo Dogfender, you get a free CP.

[Silentz]

First game with the new Codex tonight... I'm taking the following:

 

1998pts

Mars Batallion 

 

HQs:

Belisarius Cawl

Tech-Priest Enginseer

 

Troops:

3 Breachers with Heavy Arc Rifles and Arc Claws

6 Rangers, 2 Transuranic Arquebus

5 Vanguard, Taser Goad

5 Vanguard, Taser Goad

 

Elites:

Cybernetica Datasmith

10 Fulgurite Electropriests

5 Sicarian Infiltrators - Flechette Blaster & Taser Goad

 

Heavy:

3 Kastelans, triple phosphor

1 Onager Dunecrawler, Icarus Array

 

Super Heavy Aux Detachment - Questor Mechanicus

 

Knight Crusader, Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon, 2 Heavy Stubber, Heavy Flamer

 

 

---

 

Not totally optimal but I'm playing against Necrons at someone's house, not a tournament. 

Bringing Breachers to test them out really... will they be a useful screen or a total waste of time?!

 

Feels very strange going into a game with a plan for how to spend my Command Points... the plan might not survive contact with the enemy but I intend to do something like..

 

1 x Knight of the Cog on T2 to hopefully give the Crusader a 2-up and rerolling 1's. 

1 x Machine Spirit Resurgent on T3 or T4 before the Knight dies

2 x Wrath of Mars on Kastelans to try and put down those annoying Necron units that just keep getting back up.

[Hagl87]

Really interested in how your Arc breachers get on Silentz. With the points drop I wondered about using some to screen some Phospher Bots with the option to use Elimination Volley. Will be getting both because (I am a terrible collector and have to have at least one of everything) they will give me more options/variety.

[Charlo]

A good trick is using Binnarhic Override strat on the Robots to get them double tapping turn one. Sure they're stuck shooting but who cares?!

[Silentz]

 

 

Really interested in how your Arc breachers get on Silentz. With the points drop I wondered about using some to screen some Phospher Bots with the option to use Elimination Volley. Will be getting both because (I am a terrible collector and have to have at least one of everything) they will give me more options/variety.

 

Unfortunately Elimination Volley is for Kataphron Destroyers only, not Kataphron Breachers.  Christ knows why they limited it like that. A real shame, as it might maybe have made breachers properly viable as a combo. 

 

A good trick is using Binnarhic Override strat on the Robots to get them double tapping turn one. Sure they're stuck shooting but who cares?!

 

I've definitely cared in the past where I wanted to move my Kastelans to get on an objective and win the game, but they were stuck!  

 

I am actually tempted to NOT take a Datasmith and proxy the model as a second Tech Priest Enginseer...  which would allow me to take a Vanguard detachment and get another CP... which... would have to be used on Binharic Override.  Hm. Maybe not! 

[Hagl87]

Unfortunately Elimination Volley is for Kataphron Destroyers only, not Kataphron Breachers.  Christ knows why they limited it like that. A real shame, as it might maybe have made breachers properly viable as a combo. 

 

Ah that's a shame, would indeed have made a nice little pairing. Thanks for pointing that out! Still interested in how they get on/what their best use is going to be.

[Withershadow]

I prefer Vanguards over Rangers. But only the big squads will get the toys for the Strategem use. Otherwise I foresee these little squads dying pretty fast as they'll be the only thing (aside from chicken walkers) advancing on objectives.

 

So far my lists have been Battalion + something else for 7 CP's but I find it's not enough... so I'm going to play more 5 man squads to get into a Brigade. I'm just not sure if it's worth it for a mere 2 more CP's. (I do actually enjoy the 10 man VG squads with 3 plasma + Strat).

I think a squad of Kataphron Destroyers is a great addition if you're fielding Kastelans. That stratagem is tasty.

 

Breachers are also pretty nice for 141 points (same as pimped Vanguard) and are more survivable against anti-infantry fire. I agree 5-man squads will evaporate if anyone looks at them, which is why I feel a single arquebus may be good to keep their target priority level lower. Larger squads aren't very survivable either (once you factor in 52-shot Russ Punishers lol), but at least they make good targets for stratagems.

[Yoda79]

Thats the real issue with this codex. All new videos i see gw parrots saying what a cool codex value bla bla and is crap. Yes they gave options but nothing in synergy.

 

Wrath of mars ok. And ?? Broken Robots that got nerfed. Double nerfed. Lost 5+ return mortal and they now double shoot not shoot twice less split fire forcing bigger unit for wrarh of mars and easy to get around. I dont have an issue it was at least a serious change they gave a 2 point broken wrath of mars but do not be mistaken they nerfed and made weak our Robots from what they where.

 

Its not funny to lock you Robots first round or not have a datasmith if you really play competitive. And i dont believe you gonna take 6 robots with Cawl and wrath of mars for fun games. That said

 

Codex mademore units viable playable and i can see why they got all those studios parroting how good it is. The fact though is they did nothing for our codex. It has nothing new. Nothing. We didnt want to heal one wound on the knight or force to take warlord trait relic dominus to follow 6" move on our knights to be able to heal him. Certainly not.

We wanted adeptus mechanicus to be an army an army serious enough to have versatile competitive options. Ok i agree the codex gems design was heading towards the right direction making this army verstile as it was almost in 7th. Somewhat stayed inside the fluff but the result is not playable.

 

Seen the video from good players

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H8RCecb75IE

 

Gotta say its clear in cntrol was trying to say some of the issue. If you sit down and not read the codex page by page you ll realise you cant have any combination from this codex. You just cant combine nothing.

 

We pay so much tax so much and the ability to be versatile with cp s is so limited you cant even effectively play a third round. Go try i provoke you to go play any plan in competitive enviroment and you d soon realise your juice runs out in two turns.

 

We talking for so many days to even try and fit inside a list 2 dogmas and 2 plans . Robots and dragoons. Robots are easily overcomed from many strats even a first turn alpha he lost 3 robots from a mere 500 poins deep strike and he was lucky. Soyou ll do what robots and cry?

In ordermto have a second chance we try to get a group of dragoons. Inflitrate use gems for 2+ hit 4+ explode. Two rounds maybe a wrath of mars maybe inf dragoons maybe +2 one reroll etc. Thats it. No screener no transport no mobility nothing. You wont have anything.

 

So might be nice to have breachers now or check sniper or test inflitrators or whatever you found nice in this book but you wo t see it in tabletop. There is no way you can make an effective competitive list vs serious enemies. They balanced the Robots and they did good i dont like broken things. They balanced the army wkth gems and dogmas but we cant play it competitive.

 

Dogmas dont co exist. So you need to take cp s from where? Battalion with troops?? What troops 5 man ? Wanna see how many guns can kill those 5 rangervangs all guns just sneeze. I wont start with mortars and other competitive lists. So far we keep it logical.

What can i get destrouers robots a d Cawl? No and maybe i should not .

Dominus robot destroyers is for no Cawl combos like ryza. With plasma vang etc. Again even if you decide to take a ryza brigade for 9 cp with all plasma options still it will be a fun game not competitive since there is none co petitive player out there that will not shoot all his stubber guns towards your 76 point destroyer for an amazing low cost gun kill. While you cry for you lost 76 poimts even if you shoot once 76 d6 shots are so random that if you dare take . 1*3 destroyers and 1*2 robots twice you invest 230*4 900+ poimts for? Paper damage situational in most cases. New lemman rush csn shoot twice if moving half . That where deastroyers last edition expensivembut grav was a non brainer. Youd play them with screener and knew some result. You can pay so much for a random result. Ryza will make this even worse if you spend the cp s and roll lowmon d6 is a game lost.

 

Lets try what all other armies got cheap options. 52 enginserr 40 rangers. No mobility no transport . Ok smaller units die easy. Bigger units with special weapons even easier with out spending again cp s to a oid moral issues while your gun options are extreme in cost once more. No melee hq aura unit.none.

 

Mobility if you dont pay cp s you cant do it. Ok how hard was to give dunestrider of 7th editio . Some scout or some relentless. I vet we dont lime transport for fluff reason we are the endless march. Im with you but scout?? Where is scout wny i gotta be obj secure have bionic feet and no dunestrider no scout no +1+2+3 on advance or charge. We dont even have gem for run charge. Whats up with that? Where is ghe problem. Why can rustalkers have the rule to pop behimd enemy deploy zone like cavarly? We gotta pay for everythjng

 

We all exited and we like the rules ok thats one. We like the options and some of the flavor returned but we ll never see anything on the table top toghether. 20 priest nice bb cps bb points . I can write for hours. Nerf our superb units if that s the case but give back some 5 turn option and not two round cp. Cant give lower cost ok then give some options default. Like the rest of the armies. Bigger troop unit tht can be screener. Dont ljke kt we getting strong ok then we pay for transport. Dont like it make it air transport its in fluff so we got mobility still dont loke it its broken? Ok dunetrider. Dont have to be and scout and relentless and +3 run charge move. Be something so we can at least use this great infantry.

 

Was not aiming to tire none but i just had enough with review codex videos reading pge fter page of how superb this codex is. Its heading towards a good direction but its far from it.

 

Go try make detachments . Battalions we gotta pay 52 extra for enginseer that is crap and 3 * troops doing nothing. Can move cant survive cant take 20 cant morale cant use sniper extreme cost. We gott take them bare bones doing nothing 172 points of nothing.

Breachers i like i ll take .... how with so much tax . Elimination volley not working???? Why so we dont arc rifle 6 str bs 3 weapon for real 140 points after codex??destroyers already said.

 

What vanguard? With what? Datasmith only healing forge word robots. How would you not pay tax. You want to take inflitrators as mars for not even paying more tax with a new lucius detachm . Ok so we got inf. Datasmith and priest? And its the best possible so far.

Oh dont forgeg you ned also robots inside. Gotta be all same dogma to work any of the bilities gems etc.

 

Heavys. Now listen to this. Not o only you payed for the rest of tax now we getti g even better. Onagers meed to be same forge world to count as friendly for reroll inv. Tadaaaaa. Same goes for hq.

 

So let me explain this. You busting your head to make cp s. You eventually saw 2* batt in control used ok lets have one option . 2* batt. Now to fit Cawl Robots having point to use Cawl or decide to use -1 for onagers means what? You either need 4 onagers two/ dogma or go for rerolls or go for -1. Ok but how woould you combine again datasith robots with onagers and if not and take them stygia Cawl rerolls only for Robots? And troops and datasmith and enginseers that will be 3 of them not able to heal only dogms based and tour troopx are 1 wound so only robot or only onager. And w8 you still got 9 cp s that is a joke you ll not make a second round. You got only robots effective unit if you get alpha strike your toast but you got value and options. Dominus works the same his aura nd heal only for dogma so the nice combo of healer relic bla bla is crap. As Cawl will not worth taking if you dont get all mars . Same goes for dominus etc.

 

So what did the codex bring.

 

I played pre codex 3-4 robos datasmith mobile.5 onagers priests. And ig brigadefor 14 cp. With 40 bodies screener and a dakkaline all healble and all buffed.

 

What a valuable codex take a look of guard codex thats value. Options you got default units able to do their job and gems for options.we got nothing from this codex and you can spa videos all day long.