Is Raven Guard mono Primaris the best?

[Jochteas]

Greetings, 

Recently after I took a hard look at Primaris and really grew quite fond. I got the Dark Imperium set and loved the models enough that I've commuted to fielding a Primaris only army. Looking around at the different adeptus astartes it seems to be that Raven Guard might be the best for a solo Primaris group. The sfts alleviates so many issues of mobility and transportation. Not to mention i really, like the interceptor models and I think they just scream Raven Guard to me. Lastly given that a Primaris group is going to be a very low model count unit anyways I greatly appreciate the bump in suitability from Shadow masters. I know a pure Primaris army is totally optimal but it looks fun and I would like an army that places differently then my current (Space wolves), but I figured i'd go to the source and see what dedicated Raven Guard players though of the idea. 

- Jochteas.

[Gulltramarine]

I say go for it, sounds like you have a clear idea of what you want.

[Jochteas]

I guess my only hang up is my local friends have been pretty insistent that it would be a mistake and that Ultramarine Primaris are the way to go especially with the new fall back and shoot chapter tactic and the stratagem letting you overcharge plasma way more. I guess i shouldn't care ~that~ much since this is more of a fun build but I thought it was pretty well reason Raven Guard are top with Primaris and I was looking for confirmation or rebuttal to my idea assessment. 

[Valdr Fell-fist]

I've been having a fair bit of success locally with my Raptors Primaris army (with Lias Issodon occasionally) I find that Striking from the Shadows with one or two short range threats (Aggressors especially, often supported by a Gravis Captain) really forces the opponent to focus their attention on them, leaving my more manuverable elements (auto bolt rifle intercessors, assault plasma hellblasters) to really pick and choose their targets, play to the mission etc.

 

And if they want to advance and target my intercessors who are actually winning the game for me, they're exposing themselves to my Aggresors and captain, as well as the six man Inceptor squad I've been using lately.

 

Sure, there have been moments when I wish I could fall back and shoot, but that opportunity happens about twice a game.

 

The added defence from our chapter tactics is excellent on Primaris. With one exception. Do not underestimate Dark Reapers. They suffer no modifiers to their hit rolls, and with 2damage on each shot...they get nasty, fast.

 

Hope that helps, brother.

[Race Bannon]

Hello and welcome to the Ravenspire!

 

I agree from above, and as a huge fan of the RG myself, go for it :tu:

 

You could also proxy as Raven Guard a few games to make sure your commitment can involve paint. There is nothing like having an idea, buying stuff for it, painting models, then playing the game only to find out it's not what you really thought and don't really like. THEN having a wee little bit of animosity toward people (and the game), even though it was ultimately *your* decision to "go for it" ... I'm looking at you Infinity!

 

...

 

But I digress. Let's talk about you. ^_^

[Gulltramarine]

I guess my only hang up is my local friends have been pretty insistent that it would be a mistake and that Ultramarine Primaris are the way to go especially with the new fall back and shoot chapter tactic and the stratagem letting you overcharge plasma way more. I guess i shouldn't care ~that~ much since this is more of a fun build but I thought it was pretty well reason Raven Guard are top with Primaris and I was looking for confirmation or rebuttal to my idea assessment. 

 

 

My advice would be to ignore any reasons that are based around getting an optimal ruleset. I may be biased, but the Raven Guard are way cooler than the Ultramarines and that should be reason alone to go with them. Besides, don't the standard Primaris unit have 2 wounds and a range of 30 inches? Ally that with Raven Guard Chapter tactics and that would be lethal. I basically field an army of jump packs, rendering our CTs pretty much redundant, but I'm not switching because Raven Guard are the best 

[ShinyRhino]

The only failing of Primaris right now is a lack of a strong assault unit. The distribution of melee weaponry is limited to HQ units, Aggressors, and the Dreadnought.

There are armies that will require some carving up to turn the tide.

[Lemondish]

The only failing of Primaris right now is a lack of a strong assault unit. The distribution of melee weaponry is limited to HQ units, Aggressors, and the Dreadnought.

There are armies that will require some carving up to turn the tide.

I think there's also a distinct lack of anti-tank weaponry, though not to the extent as the assault issue you raised.

[Claws and Effect]

I have to second Gulltramarine's point.

 

Don't choose your faction by what seems to have the best rules. Choose by what you think is the coolest.

 

One good reason: Rules can change, characters and color schemes rarely do.

 

What if you pick Raven Guard because of the rules and are kind of "meh" on everything else? If the Raven Guard tactics and strategems get nerfed you're stuck with a chapter you don't like that much.

 

Me? I couldn't care less about the rules. I play Raven Guard because I think they're freaking awesome.

[ShinyRhino]

 

The only failing of Primaris right now is a lack of a strong assault unit. The distribution of melee weaponry is limited to HQ units, Aggressors, and the Dreadnought.

There are armies that will require some carving up to turn the tide.

I think there's also a distinct lack of anti-tank weaponry, though not to the extent as the assault issue you raised.

That too, though the Repulsor and Dread can be pressed into service there. Hellblasters are very good, but struggle to sink wounds onto vehicles without overcharging, which is scary with two wound models.

[BlackKnight1239]

I think mechanically, you're right on. Most Marine lists are tactical squads in Razorbacks for a good reason, and I think both SftS and the Chapter tactic does a good job giving these strengths back to Primaris Marines. I think Raven Guard overall have the best opportunity to be the best infantry focused Space Marine army. I haven't played any games of 8th edition yet (gotta get an army painted first, after all), but I'm not certain how well tanks hold up without having a critical mass of them. Raven Guard does have an opportunity to focus on infantry, bikes and Dreadnoughts very well.

[duz_]

Welcome!

 

Well other than RG being the best chapter! I think you've got the right idea.

 

As others have said I would be wary of doing it for "power". Do what you think will suit your play style and theme. I never wanted A Space Marine army until Montka dropped the new (now old) RG formations and rules and I really liked how it played on the table top. 8th lets RG play to their fluff even more.

 

Sure UM CTs are great and definitely good all Rounders.

 

Other option is to just pick and choose your CTs irrespective of colour scheme. Rules dont state they have to match.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Looks like GW was telling the truth when they said that primaris marines will not replace existing marines.  

[BlackKnight1239]

I'd imagine if GW wants to replace the class Marine models, it'll take a few editions.

[NiceGuyAdi]

Since the 8th Codex dropped I've noticed a few posts popping up here enquiring into the Chapter based on the new rules, where there hadn't been in 7th.

 

I say this not as a criticism of people, but to reiterate what others have said that the Raven Guard not long ago weren't so much a Chapter to go with based on ruleset, and it's perfectly plausible they will go back to being this in the future.

 

If you're worried about rules you can always make a successor chapter and use whichever Chapter rules you like without raising eyebrows. But I'd always advocate that the Raven Guard are the most interesting chapter, and you can't beat black power armour.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to duck my head to avoid projectiles from all the Raptors on this board...

[Gulltramarine]

If you're worried about rules you can always make a successor chapter and use whichever Chapter rules you like without raising eyebrows. But I'd always advocate that the Raven Guard are the most interesting chapter, and you can't beat black power armour.

 

 

 

 

I essentially play RG in white power armour, but the rest of your point is good. 

[duz_]

Adi you forgot to mention all the beakie helmets too! ;) :D

[Lemondish]

Since the 8th Codex dropped I've noticed a few posts popping up here enquiring into the Chapter based on the new rules, where there hadn't been in 7th.

 

I say this not as a criticism of people, but to reiterate what others have said that the Raven Guard not long ago weren't so much a Chapter to go with based on ruleset, and it's perfectly plausible they will go back to being this in the future.

 

If you're worried about rules you can always make a successor chapter and use whichever Chapter rules you like without raising eyebrows. But I'd always advocate that the Raven Guard are the most interesting chapter, and you can't beat black power armour.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to duck my head to avoid projectiles from all the Raptors on this board...

I think that's more a factor of 8th edition bringing in far more players, whether they're returning after a long hiatus or jumping in for the first time.

 

And I kind of agree with you. Reasonable Marines are great, but only for their theme. RG is just way cooler overall, particularly regarding their history.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Lemondish

[Jochteas]

Everyone thank you so much for your thoughtful replies! They have given me a lot to think about. I really agree with the point that you should love them fluff wise before rules wise because that can change. I guess I just kinda got caught up in the moment, every edition is so different 9th raven guard who knows?! I guess I'm going to need to spend the next 2 or 3 days reading lore on both and then deciding. I do enjoy having a strong fluff with my SW army and I'll admit I was looking to do the same here. The connection between primaris and Guilleman is undeniable. I wonder how the Ravenguard would feel about them.

[Claws and Effect]

 The connection between primaris and Guilleman is undeniable. I wonder how the Raven Guard would feel about them.

 

First, I fixed the chapter name in the quote for you. Sorry, it's a less than totally rational pet peeve of mine :)

 

Second, the Raven Guard will likely be....wary of Primaris Marines. They will accept them, but their creation would hit a sore spot with them. 

 

Why, you ask? Because something very similar to Primaris Marines is what directly led to their Primarch disappearing in self-imposed exile. Corax created a bunch of Raven Guard using the Emperor's own methods and it went horribly wrong (because of Alpha Legion interference). The first batch came out perfect and exactly what they were supposed to be, but the second was created with tainted geneseed and resulted in the creation of horrific mutants instead of Astartes. Corax put all of them out of their misery personally and went into the Eye of Terror. 

 

So, while I'm sure the Raven Guard would appreciate the reinforcements (since they are perpetually shorthanded), they would be leery of trusting the Primaris and might even feel vaguely insulted by their existence. 

[Gulltramarine]

 

 The connection between primaris and Guilleman is undeniable. I wonder how the Raven Guard would feel about them.

 

First, I fixed the chapter name in the quote for you. Sorry, it's a less than totally rational pet peeve of mine

 

Second, the Raven Guard will likely be....wary of Primaris Marines. They will accept them, but their creation would hit a sore spot with them. 

 

Why, you ask? Because something very similar to Primaris Marines is what directly led to their Primarch disappearing in self-imposed exile. Corax created a bunch of Raven Guard using the Emperor's own methods and it went horribly wrong (because of Alpha Legion interference). The first batch came out perfect and exactly what they were supposed to be, but the second was created with tainted geneseed and resulted in the creation of horrific mutants instead of Astartes. Corax put all of them out of their misery personally and went into the Eye of Terror. 

 

So, while I'm sure the Raven Guard would appreciate the reinforcements (since they are perpetually shorthanded), they would be leery of trusting the Primaris and might even feel vaguely insulted by their existence. 

 

 

 

 

Plus they're huge and completely devoid of stealth and covert ops training. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but they feel pretty unsuited to the RG way of war

[Claws and Effect]

 

 

 The connection between primaris and Guilleman is undeniable. I wonder how the Raven Guard would feel about them.

 

First, I fixed the chapter name in the quote for you. Sorry, it's a less than totally rational pet peeve of mine

 

Second, the Raven Guard will likely be....wary of Primaris Marines. They will accept them, but their creation would hit a sore spot with them. 

 

Why, you ask? Because something very similar to Primaris Marines is what directly led to their Primarch disappearing in self-imposed exile. Corax created a bunch of Raven Guard using the Emperor's own methods and it went horribly wrong (because of Alpha Legion interference). The first batch came out perfect and exactly what they were supposed to be, but the second was created with tainted geneseed and resulted in the creation of horrific mutants instead of Astartes. Corax put all of them out of their misery personally and went into the Eye of Terror. 

 

So, while I'm sure the Raven Guard would appreciate the reinforcements (since they are perpetually shorthanded), they would be leery of trusting the Primaris and might even feel vaguely insulted by their existence. 

 

 

 

 

Plus they're huge and completely devoid of stealth and covert ops training. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but they feel pretty unsuited to the RG way of war

 

 

Reivers are stealthy Primaris, essentially. 

 

And the Raven Guard can fight a frontal assault just as well as any other chapter, they just prefer not to. 

 

Just like a real world Marine Force Recon guy can operate a mortar just as well as any other Marine, but it isn't what he specializes in. 

 

That's actually a misconception with a lot of chapters. That they will fight a certain way no matter the circumstances. The Raven Guard have all the tanks and dreadnoughts other chapters do, and they don't hesitate to send them in when the situation calls for it. They would just rather get the job done before it gets to where they need tanks. 

 

Edit: I could easily see Raven Guard Primaris being held in reserve for those situations where a frontal assault is the only way to achieve the objective. Or as distractions while the more specialized guys infiltrate behind enemy lines. If you got a bunch of 'uge guys blasting away at you from one side, you aren't paying as much attention to what's behind you. 

 

The Raven Guard way isn't so much stealth and covert ops. It is misdirection. 

 

Corax's teachings involve (paraphrasing): "The path to victory lies in your enemy believing you to be where you are not." 

Edited August 28, 2017 by Claws and Effect

[Jochteas]

@Claws and Effect,

 

Sorry for that mistake! I need to work on my lexicon for sure.

Since you said they arnt trusted do you think that means they're more likely to be in their own chapter or company or less likely? I could see the argument ' no we don't let them alone.' But also 'no we don't want to work with them we let them do them.' It matters to me because I fluff heavy my units/armies

 

@Gulltramarine

( not arguing merely joking) maybe Mk 10 is super well oiled and has sound dampeners and is actually the quietest most stealthiest armor yet. Sure they're big but if no one could hear a T-Rex coming he'd get the drop on a lot of people.

[duz_]

I read Dark Imperium and the BRB trying to find the acceptance and interactions between the new and old marines. I haven't come across any specific chapter outrightly rejected Primaris.

I skimmed over the RG section in the SM codex (only book I haven't read yet) and there is mention of them using Reivers and Inceptors which certainly makes sense.

 

Im not sure if GW will cover this in more detail later on although I suspect given the potential impact on sales that they're not going to have any founding chapter (or well known successor) reject them whole sale.

 

Not to say C&E is incorrect on his background or reasoning. GW has said on the stream they intentionally leave these blanks for you to fill in as you wish.

I will be bulking out my RG force with some Primaris marines when my funds allow. In my multiverse RG are too pragmatic to let the distrust of these new inventions blind them of the fact they need the numbers.

I currently have a box of inceptors I want to put together next I want a Redemptor then Reivers (I wish them and Aggressors weren't elite slots!)

My logic behind Primaris is, yes they aren't the stealthiest, but sometimes you just need to stand up and laydown some dakka. Which they do well, best part is they pump out so much firepower it definitely fills a gap in my force and I can avoid filling it with tanks thanks to them! :D so still a very rapid mobile fighting force as a result

 

Anyhow I guess my point is even though RG is a founding chapter doesnt mean you have to do things a specific way.

 

/end rant

[Claws and Effect]

Wasn't trying to say the Raven Guard wouldn't accept Primaris. Just that they'd keep a closer eye on them than other chapters, given their history with a similar concept.

 

Raven Guard will use any and all resources to get the job done. And since they are perpetually understrength due to issues with their geneseed, I imagine they'd appreciate the reinforcements.

 

I suspect they would put the Primaris in their own Company and have it overseen by trusted veterans until they're satisfied nothing untoward is going on. If I ever add Primaris to my own army I'm going to go with that idea and paint them up as 6th Company.