Ideally...how many HH books to cover the Siege?

[Tymell]

Was Wolf Cull officially announced somewhere?

 

it appeared on the Forge World timeline, so it's confirmed as an event of some kind. Laurie Goulding also said on here that it will be covered in some fashion within the series.

 

I don't think it's -technically- been confirmed that it refers to the Space Wolves going after Horus. But it would make sense, and we know from Weregeld that this does happen around the time when "The Wolf Cull" appears in the timeline.

[b1soul]

I would also be disappointed if this were about SW vs. SW

 

A whole novel about this doesn't make much sense, as the number of Traitor Wolves is probably quite tiny

 

However, I am concernes that this more exciting than Yarant, which suggests it's something else

[helterskelter]

I think, in this case, it's going to be a case of having one's cake and eating it. I can't say exactly what's coming up, and there'll definitely be some things that don't get covered - Sevatar's name came up in the meeting a few times, for example, and I shot that down because there's no time to deal with him, and because me and Alan planned his fate outside the main events of the HH series.

 

This is.. not the best snippet of news I could've hoped for. I genuinely dislike skraivok, have no concern for kreig, other characters who I was interested in are dead, or have been pulled to and fro by that many authors I don't know who that character is supposed to be anymore.

I feel like I needed a little bit more Sevatar before the end but if it's not to be then so be it.

[HeritorA]

 

As blunblade says...there are Traitor Wolves

 

Honestly I'd be a little disappointed. Not in such a story per say, but that it lies in a novel instead of a short/novella. Unless its some Alpha Legionaries in disguise or something.

 

That said, I've been excited for Russ taking the fight to Horus for quite some time, and after Twisted, I'm expecting some superlative Sons of Horus stuff.

 

Yes they are - but the point of Wolf Cull and what it meant was discussed in 4 threads already and we are talking about it all over again. Laurie said already the story would be told and we will see how Russ got to his state on yARANT. In VS he talked about going after Horus > Loken should have been a pathfinder for him. So for the Horus he went - was kicked (and his Wolves were culled) and was found by Corax at Weregeld.

 

I would also be disappointed if this were about SW vs. SW

 

A whole novel about this doesn't make much sense, as the number of Traitor Wolves is probably quite tiny

 

However, I am concernes that this more exciting than Yarant, which suggests it's something else

Just curious. Why do you think or what was a reason for you to believe it would be SW vs SW story? Every Legion of the 18 had 'traitor' contingents in some way - nothing new here

[Indefragable]

 

I think, in this case, it's going to be a case of having one's cake and eating it. I can't say exactly what's coming up, and there'll definitely be some things that don't get covered - Sevatar's name came up in the meeting a few times, for example, and I shot that down because there's no time to deal with him, and because me and Alan planned his fate outside the main events of the HH series.

 

This is.. not the best snippet of news I could've hoped for. I genuinely dislike skraivok, have no concern for kreig, other characters who I was interested in are dead, or have been pulled to and fro by that many authors I don't know who that character is supposed to be anymore.

I feel like I needed a little bit more Sevatar before the end but if it's not to be then so be it.

Though I have no personal affection for Sevatar (he’s a well written character, but he’s just not “my” dude in anyway), I can understand your feeling. However, if it’s any consolation, at least it appears the author gets to do things how he wants without some marketing :cuss -er forcing his hand to sell the new “Sevatar on Terra” model.

 

HeritorA:

Do we know for a fact that every single Legion had both Traitor and Loyalist elements?

 

Hidden Content

Were there any major loyalist Word Bearer contingents?

Splinter Night Lords who stayed loyal?

We’re there any major Traitor elements among the Blood Angel, Ultramarine, or Imperial Fists?

 

On one hand, its almost a foregone conclusion that individuals, squads, or even companies of all stripes would go against their parent Legion for whatever reason, so there are undoubtedly some “deserter” elements. The idea also opens up excellent opportunities for interesting narratives (the Blood Angel with blue underpants, the Raven Guard with dreams of Broadway, the World Eater who got queasy at the sight of blood)...

 

...but I feel that reality is often both messier and neater than logic or probability dictates. It seems entirely plausible that few, if any, Ultramarined turned Traitor, especially given the Pearl Harbor effect of Calth. Likewise, it’s hard to imagine many Word Bearers going against Lorgar.

 

Apparently there were Traitor Space Wolves, so it’s certainly plausible, but it seems almost too neat and clean to say “every Legion had Traitor/Loyalist elements.”

 

[Phoebus]

Every Legion having a traitor (or loyalist) contingent might sound like too broad a statement to make, but when you think about it the evidence increasingly points to this.

 

I. We know the Dark Angels dealt with the Luther-led schism of the Fallen.

 

III. The Emperor's Children culled a significant percentage of their core numbers at Isstvan III, and still there was at least one rogue Millennial out there to deal with.

 

IV. At least two significant Loyalist Iron Warriors contingents are mentioned: Dantioch's force, and the Grand Battalion from the Forge World series (whose commander's name escapes me right now).

 

V. A great many White Scars tried to enact a coup of sorts, to convince Jaghatai Khan to side with Horus. Admittedly, though, the majority appear to have been misguided souls who subsequently fought against the Traitor Legions.

 

VI. At least one Great Company of the Space Wolves appears to have sided with Horus.

 

VIII. I have to re-read the Forge World books, but I swear there is mention of Night Lords Loyalists.

 

X. I believe there is also a reference in that same book about Iron Hands Traitors.

 

XII. A significant percentage of the World Eaters were culled at Isstvan III.

 

XIV. Ditto.

 

XV. Ironically, the Thousand Sons bear the distinction of being wholly loyal only to turn wholly traitor (after a fashion) after the events of Prospero.

 

XVI. See Isstvan III.

 

XVII. The oldest lore has the Word Bearers systematically eliminating those of their warriors who held on to Emperor worship/couldn't be relied on to convert to Chaos worship.

 

XIX. Surely Sevatar's mute friend from Prince of Crows wasn't alone?!?

 

XX. Omegon's efforts against Alpharius are well-documented.

 

So that's eleven of the eighteen named Legiones Astartes who definitely had warriors on both sides of the divide - twelve if you count the White Scars, and thirteen if I'm right about the Iron Hands. Given that it's qualified that those elements of Loyal Legions that turned Traitor did so because of distance from their primarch/by dint of being paired up with Traitor Legions at the time of the Heresy, I don't think it's impossible that the Imperial Fists, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, and Raven Guard had elements that flew Horus's banner.

Edited October 3, 2017 by Phoebus

[TheRealMcCagh]

Isn't the former Chief Librarian of the Night Lords on of Malcador's agents? Or is he just rumored to be one of the founding Grey Knights? And Arvida is a loyalist 1k son, so there is at least one. Can't think of many traitor elements in loyalists forces apart from the White Scars, Dark Angels, and that single Raven Guard in Sevatar's crew

Edited October 3, 2017 by TheRealMcCagh

[Indefragable]

Phoebus and TheRealMcCagh:

 

I’m not saying there can’t be any outcasts in each Legion, I just mean I think it’s too neat to say a significant portion of each Legion turned. It’s human nature to have a few “bad apples” in every bunch. I am referring to a quantity or unit significant enough to warrant serious* mention.

 

*serious in this case would be “worth a novella +” as a previous poster mentioned

[Tymell]

An interesting topic, but we might be wavering a bit off-topic in this particular thread :p

[TheRealMcCagh]

I was just trying to think of elements from each legion that went against the Primarch. In that same vein, the only Word Bearer I can think of is Narek, who last we saw (I think), he was on his way to try and assassinate Lorgar for what he did to the Word Bearers. Hardly a loyalist though, just an anti-Lorgar guy. Can't think of a single BA, Salamander, Ultra, Fist, Space Wolf or Iron Hand.

[b1soul]

Traitor Iron Hands and Space Wolves mentioned in the FW books

[HeritorA]

Indefragable

Yes to all. Actually Phoebus said it best.

All the Legions has traitor/loyalist contingents without exclusion.

Word Bearer  - Barthusa Narek and scout contingents, Chief Librarian for NL and splinter regiment in Shattered Legions mentioned in the FW books etc.

'Apparently there were Traitor Space Wolves, so it’s certainly plausible, but it seems almost too neat and clean to say “every Legion had Traitor/Loyalist elements.”'

sure.

Plus as b1soul said 'Traitor Iron Hands and Space Wolves mentioned in the FW books'.

I think we will see more 'loyal' NL in 'Angelus' FW HH book.

[Knockagh]

FW mentioned that they are planning a series consisting of 20 black books. I suggest a trilogy, covering the siege of Terra.

 

Back to topic: decent list, mate. :)

I would doubt FW will produce 20 black books. I think it will be more like 10 to 12. I know they said 20 but the fire has largely left the heresy I can see the seige and aftermath reigniting it for a short time but the focus has very strongly shifted back onto 40k.

 

I don’t want too many books around the siege, anymore than 3 will turn it into a dakka dakka fest. A scene setting, a battle and an aftermath will do nicely.

[HeritorA]

 

FW mentioned that they are planning a series consisting of 20 black books. I suggest a trilogy, covering the siege of Terra.

 

Back to topic: decent list, mate.

I would doubt FW will produce 20 black books. I think it will be more like 10 to 12. I know they said 20 but the fire has largely left the heresy I can see the seige and aftermath reigniting it for a short time but the focus has very strongly shifted back onto 40k.

 

I don’t want too many books around the siege, anymore than 3 will turn it into a dakka dakka fest. A scene setting, a battle and an aftermath will do nicely.

 

3 books are not enough. It will be just gliding over surface. 5-6 will do it.

Too much stuff to cover.

[Indefragable]

 

********* Somewhat of a Spoiler: *********

 

For what it’s worth (and correct me if I am wrong), we officially have our

first glimpse of the Siege

from a ground level in

Chris Wraight’s recent short story Restorer

.

 

Spoiler about the work mention in spoiler tag #2 above:

...it’s only a few paragraphs, so don’t get into a tizzy, and does not cover too much or give too much away. But it is a legitimate scene that takes place during the Siege and gives us a first peek at some of who was doing what where.

.

 

...it’s also a heckuva good read in its own right.

[JH79]

********* Somewhat of a Spoiler: *********

 

For what it’s worth (and correct me if I am wrong), we officially have our

 

.

 

Spoiler about the work mention in spoiler tag #2 above:

.

 

...it’s also a heckuva good read in its own right.

Generally i try to avoid spoiler tags and i don't buy the short story ebooks, but this sounds awesome and tempting!! How does it compare to The Last Son of Prospero? The hype on these boards about that made me take the plunge and it was so worth it! 

 

On a separate note I think the only other story that's come remotely close to showing the siege was The Gates of Terra by Kyme. A very enjoyable look at the level of sacrifice we can expect to see from the loyalists while Horus and co trudge their in system to Terra.

 

Needless to say, excitement levels for the Siege are currently over 9000!!!

[Sandlemad]

 

********* Somewhat of a Spoiler: *********

 

For what it’s worth (and correct me if I am wrong), we officially have our

 

.

 

Spoiler about the work mention in spoiler tag #2 above:

.

 

...it’s also a heckuva good read in its own right.

Generally i try to avoid spoiler tags and i don't buy the short story ebooks, but this sounds awesome and tempting!! How does it compare to The Last Son of Prospero? The hype on these boards about that made me take the plunge and it was so worth it!

 

Very well. Last Son of Prospero is definitely a more significant story to the plot and the wider universe but I thought this was wonderful. Very quiet and understated, a short character piece, the next step in the

personal arc of Shiban Khan after Brotherhood of the Storm, Scars and Path of Heaven.

 

Indefragable is absolutely correct though, the battle stuff is literally only a few paragraphs at the very end of the story. There's less siege-action than in the Talos's flashback in Blood Reaver (or was it Void Stalker?). Basically all that happens is

Shiban leads a WS charge at a traitor dropship that's just landed at Lion's Gate and the story ends as he rams his glaive into the first warrior out.

[Indefragable]

Shiban leads a WS charge at a traitor dropship that's just landed at Lion's Gate and the story ends as he rams his glaive into the first warrior out.

More thoughts (gives away a bit on the story itself, so be warned):

 

 

The part about the Siege is just a few paragraphs, but I thought it was extremely well done, in spite of (or because of?) it’s length. Kind of like the first ever trailer for The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers where they just showed 10s of the Battle of Helm’s Deep and you knew you were in.

 

1. There’s a phenomenal line about how despite how many Astartes (on both sides) would be gathered in one place, it would all come down to the uncountable numbers of mortals in the end (foreshadowing :cuss -er :cuss -ers?!?!?! Awwwww yea!!!!!)

2. It describes how Shiban and company are fighting in Lion’s Gate starport and how any semblance of battle lines are completely skewed. Everyone is mixed up into battle soup.

3. “The ominous orbital loaders just keep coming.” Even grizzled, battered, and Six-Million-Dollar-Man-ifed Shiban is taken aback at just how big the attack is.

4. “A warrior who grew up here would not know how to retreat.” This gives away what the story is about, but by the Emprah is it good. Long-story-short even the Hit and Run White Scars realize there is no more room to maneuver; they are in death ground; there is no retreat; it’s fight until they die. No more, no less.

[b1soul]

"Six-Million-Dollar-Man-ifed Shiban"

That's a good one, mate

[JH79]

Thanks guys, I'm gonna treat myself to this tonight and digest at some point over the weekend when i have a bit of time to myself. I've read the spoilers (hangs head in shame lol) )but if anything it's got me more excited to get it now! 

[HeritorA]

Thanks guys, I'm gonna treat myself to this tonight and digest at some point over the weekend when i have a bit of time to myself. I've read the spoilers (hangs head in shame lol) )but if anything it's got me more excited to get it now! 

The last son was indeed better than the 'Restorer'. But the last one had a lot of amazing tidbits you gonna like.  But in general - it views and descriptiveness what makes it amazing. Because from the point of events - nothing 'really' happens in it.

 

 

As for the Siege of Terra - I suggest to use that only for the 'Siege of the Imperial Palace on (Terra)'  if we are talking about 3 books. In that case I think 3 books for The Palace siege is enough.

If we are talking events unfolding all over the planet - Emperors Children's transgression, Nurgle blight, Imperial citizens view on the Apocalypse outside - they do take 1-2 books to cover.

Plus in general war around Lion Spaceport WS vs DG is going outside the 'Siege of the Imperial Palace' too.

 

And even before that we have 1-2 books at least to cover the war over Solar outskirts, Saturn, Luna, getting to the orbital drop positions over the Terra. It's a long grinding way. Plus we have Mars to tackle with etc.

[hopkins]

https://soundcloud.com/eye-of-horus-podcast/eye-of-horus-podcast-episode-109

 

gav thorpe talks about the HH meeting at the 3 hour mark

[Indefragable]

https://soundcloud.com/eye-of-horus-podcast/eye-of-horus-podcast-episode-109

 

gav thorpe talks about the HH meeting at the 3 hour mark

3hr8min in, to be precise. In case you’re an impatient :cuss like me.

[b1soul]

Any juicy tidbits? I can't listen at this time so would greatly appreciate a summary

[Ascanius]

Most of it was working out what they still need to cover besides established background events from previous approaches to the story:

• whose stories still need to be told
• where the Primarchs are and what they're doing
• themes they want the stories to convey
• events that will occur that we haven't heard about yet

Nick Kyme was apparently up at the whiteboard in his capacity as editor, writing down all the ideas as the authors around the table came up with them. Kyme and the other editor involved will have to make sense of all that and figure out who's writing what. It was made clear from the outset that those decisions weren't going to be made then.

 

In previous Heresy meetings, the purpose was more about working out how the stories people were writing fit together - but this time, no one had been attached to particular storylines or stages of the Siege beforehand, so everyone was contributing ideas to make all the different parts better. Thorpe likens it to the way of setting up terrain for a game where one person lays out the battlefield but their opponent gets to decide which side they start on, so you try to make it all balanced.

 

Laurie Goulding and Alan Bligh worked out a rough timeline for the whole Siege that added up to about seven months, including the void war and the ground war. The meeting discussed how to pace the books so that they covered that time at an appropriate pace while still providing satisfying story progression in each individual book.

 

The meeting broke down the stories but the number of books involved was not finalised. "More than 1, less than 50." There's still plenty of the wider Heresy narrative to cover - "a few books, at least" - before the Siege of Terra actually begins, and no-one is currently off to work on a Siege of Terra story just yet.

 

One throwaway line like "the defences of Luna are destroyed" in the background becomes a story of its own for Black Library, for instance, though that wasn't to suggest there will be a whole novel about that idea - it could be a short, a novella, an audio drama, et cetera.

 

The focus of the numbered novels will be on the Siege of Terra proper, and other formats will handle things happening elsewhere in the Solar System or the galaxy at the time.

 

Dan Abnett did not show up with 1500 pages of the confrontation on the Vengeful Spirit already written.

 

The series has sprawled enough that Thorpe, at least, wasn't always familiar with the exploits of characters mentioned by other writers.

 

Not everyone can survive the Siege - "this is full George R.R. Martin slaughter, I think, for a lot of them." Anyone who isn't already known to have survived is fair game.

 

It sounded like they're not considering themselves required to reconcile every previous account of the Siege - i.e. in one story from the 2nd Edition Codex: Chaos, N'Kari and Doombreed are present and fight the Emperor, which hasn't been mentioned since. Thorpe used this as an example of something that they wouldn't feel obligated to work in unless they came up with a cool idea for doing so that fit with the story they've already decided they want to tell.

 

Everyone's stories are so intertwined that it's not as simple as saying "this story involves faction X, therefore Y should write it." Those decisions will be more based on which characters are the best vehicles for the story, and thus on which writers have the most affinity with those characters - but even more than that, it will come down to scheduling.

 

The books covering the Siege of Terra will be much more firmly chronological than some of the stories in the middle of the series were. "You can't have Khan at the gates if the void war isn't done."