Raven1 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Time to put on our tin foil hats, breakout out or tea leaves and read some palms. With an eye to the past I want to look to the future. I started this as an examination of the Death Guard in the Codex Supplement: Traitor Legions (TL) and what was brought into Codex Heretic Astartes: Death Guard (DG) either in a direct translation or more of a spiritual successor. I found that the Death Guard in Traitor legions work similarly to their new Codex and many of the warlord traits, relics and psychic powers are the same or similar. The Death Guard received many new units and models, I also found in my estimation that Grey Knights (GK) also received similar models. So here we go and let’s get started with what I think we just might see Codex Heretic Astartes: Thousand Sons (TS). Just one note I am in no way connected to GW and these are just a series of hypothesizes and in no way, should be treated as rumors. New Units: DG and GK got several new units. The DG received basically an entirely new line of models with the GK received none. Regardless they both received datasheets that fill the same or similar roles of Apothecaries, Chaplain, Techmarine (GK only), Ancient, GM in Nemesis Dread knights (Grey Knight only…duh). While I find it highly doubtful that TS would receive Apothecaries or Techmarines. While Techmarines are more likely than Apothecaries, when an army are either sorcerers (probably highly mutated) or basically dust I just don’t see how they would work. A Dark Apostle/Chaplain type unit might work as would an “Ancient” mainly the because the Exalted Sorcerer box has so many options counts as would not be difficult in the slightest while effectively buffing Rubrics, Tzaangors, and SO Terminators. I also think that Tzaangor Shamans in an elite slot are possible as a Dark Apostle or Exalted Champion role for Tzaangors with Enlighted and sky fires especially less likely. Creating assault Rubrics unit, I think is unlikely, possibly unfluffy/against the design them given how Rubrics have been designed and/or explained in fluff. Rubric Havocs would be more likely in my estimation it doesn’t require really anything in new molds or design (although GW has an odd design philosophy in that it gives datasheets to units without models if it doesn’t take “too much” work in creating the model, I’m not sure). These things would certainly shore up weakness in (counter) assault and anti-tank. DG gained any Nurgle demon in the index that didn’t take an HQs slot, I expect the same for TS. Warlord Traits: DG had 6 unique warlord traits and continue to have 6 warlord traits. Between the two (TL and the new codex) warlord traits either share the same name being reworked or are basically the same. We will likely see the same thing. TS warlord traits will be ported and or re-worked to be more effective or work better in 8th edition. Relics: A bigger difference as weapons effects just don’t work the same from 7th to 8th edition. Astral Grimoire, Helm of the third eye, Coruscator Pistol and even staff of Arcane compulsion can be added with few or little changes. The Seer’s bane would need a major rework. Oddly enough the Codex Heretic Astartes: Chaos Space Marines (CSM) Nurgle relic is not in DG and so I don’t expect Eye of Tzeentch to be in TS. However, the DG Plague bringer is like puscleaver so maybe a similar but not the same thing. Psychic Powers: the TL DG primaris became a stratagem…could happen for TL TS (Tzeentch firestorm maybe +d3 to smite). An important note is the Nurgle power from CSM one of the 6 powers in the DG discipline. I expect the same for TS. The rest of the TL DG discipline is heavily reworked. I expect Doombolt, Breath of Chaos, and Treason of Tzeentch to make a comeback Doombolt and Breath of chaos I think of been around since at least third edition and Treason is just too cool. Boon of mutation and baleful devolution I think will either be reworked or changed completely. Weaver of fates will be ported from CSM. Stratagems, CSM and DG both have 14 stratagems they share 7 stratagems (Chaos boon, Fire Frenzy, Veterans of the long war, Blasphemous machines, kill shot, familiar, Gift of X (more relics), Grandfather’s blessing and one that is mostly the same, tide of cultists and Dead Walk Again. I expect TS will have from CSM Great Sorcerer, Gift of Tzeentch, Chaos Boon, Fire Frenzy, Veterans of the Long war, Blasphemous machine, Kill shot, line breaker bombardment, demon forge and some sort Tzaangor/cultist regeneration. That’s 10 stratagems the rest could be like the Plague pact or improved summoning, Coruscating Beam (silver tower shot, like orbital bombardment from GK), and more? Improving “inferno” bolters, soulreaper cannon, and/or “warp” weapons, invulnerable saves, smite, and maybe increased ability to pass/deny psychic tests. Special rules DG have largely kept abilities like the old feel no pain and relentless, plague weapons from the TL book. We could see something like Favored of Tzeentch allowing re rolls to hit, blessing of Tzeentch gaining improved invulnerable saves, or blood feud rerolling to hit against Space Wolves would be fluffy but not overpowering. The thing I think that is unlikely to be brought over from the TL book is Sigil wards which increased the toughness of SO terminators when in close proximity. Lastly are the prosperine cults. These are included and expanded upon in 30k and TL book. I think it is possible to see them in a TS book, but to what extent. Biomancy, Telekinesis, Divination, Telepathy, Pyromancy no longer exists. An extra psychic power? An army wide buff like in 30K? It’s hard to stay but certainly possible. Heck it might be like houses for Adeptus Mechanicus knights which can be chosen but does nothing in the game. If you go this far, thank you and for reading and what are your thoughts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skallagoose Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 I think your judgement is sound. Only when it comes to Tzeentch i think there is a very large shake-up in the rules as a whole. CSM Tzeentch used to be +1 invul, now thats with Tzeentch daemons, with tsons being able to reroll 1's on invul with some buffing. This may seem originally as a minor change but it signals a larger change of the core rules of tsons. Then you consider what all the other factions received for their benefits: Something ALL models in the army can use (with the one exception being iron warriors who gain a bonus to shooting). That leads me to think the benefit for Tsons will not be spell based. So what will the Tson army specific benefit be? I believe its going to be the cults. I think GW saw the FW book and the positive response to it and is going to rework the cults into the core rules. I have no idea if it would work but something similar to:Each <infantry> model can select a cult. A cult gives a specific benefit to the corresponding unit. -Pavoni: Can advance and shoot or charge as normal -Raptora: Increases a unit's invulnerable save by 1 to a maximum of 3+ -Corvidae: If the unit remained stationary, may re-roll to hit rolls in the shooting phase -Athanean: Re-roll morale checks -Pyrae: Add +1 to the strength of all <inferno> and <power> weapons Obviously just guessing If you look at the closest thing to Tsons in fantasy, the Tzeentch Cults, you see that when GW added the rule of one, they had to add more spell trees. 3 in fantasy. I'm not saying we would get three, but maybe each cult gets a bonus spell, or there is a strategem that allows us to by-pass the rule of 1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khannis Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 A good list of 6 spells, 6 WTs, and 6 Relics, coupled with Cult rules and 1-2 new Datasheets would make my day. Sure, even more could happen, but at that point it's just icing on the cake for me... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 A good list of 6 spells, 6 WTs, and 6 Relics, coupled with Cult rules and 1-2 new Datasheets would make my day. Sure, even more could happen, but at that point it's just icing on the cake for me... This. A little more abstractly I'd like at least one field manipulation spell like Worldwrithe. Being able to move terrain is so huge, cool, and should be reserved for only the most powerful sorcerers. I also agree with cults being a thing. Chaos has always needed more straight bonuses instead of random tables. GW is really trying to show that IMO. Imagine if your Aspiring Sorcerer gave one cult bonus to the Rubric unit and Exalts could provide another cult bonus as an aura that applies to the squad. Exalts flex their psychic skills to augment the Rubrics under the control of the aspirants makes cool sense to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grendaxe Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Why are you already happy with 6 powers? I can already see it happening again: ~3 powers that are useful and 3 that are . So we end up in the same situation we are now. With the rule of one, Ahriman/Magnus cast the useful powers and any additional psyker is a waste of points. Only viable psychic power tactic becomes spamming cheap psykers to cast smite. Aside from that, every other army has 6/7 powers too. So unless TS powers are going to be much stronger than others (which they have never been), why play TS for the psychic might?Just add more psykers to those army's if you feel like playing around with psychic powers without the losing out on the other goodies/options they have. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893709 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Maybe they could have an active ability and a passive aura? Would make you feel like a maelstrom of psychic energy rolls with every army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893712 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khannis Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Why are you already happy with 6 powers? I can already see it happening again: ~3 powers that are useful and 3 that are . So we end up in the same situation we are now. With the rule of one, Ahriman/Magnus cast the useful powers and any additional psyker is a waste of points. Only viable psychic power tactic becomes spamming cheap psykers to cast smite. Aside from that, every other army has 6/7 powers too. So unless TS powers are going to be much stronger than others (which they have never been), why play TS for the psychic might? Just add more psykers to those army's if you feel like playing around with psychic powers without the losing out on the other goodies/options they have. IF the list is good (which was my presupposition), then 6 powers give us variety and a way around the rule of one, giving more unique spells to cast, and we could mantain access to Dark Hereticus. Rules to augment our psychic might could come from: A. Better powers (potential imbalance could be offset by cost adjustments). B. Good Warlord Traits (Cult-related, for example, maybe even giving passive auras, like Zodd suggested, or mightier casting, the ability to attempt a power twice, etc.). C. Good Relics I'm happy if they manage to do these well because a good combination of these CAN make our Legion a potent psychic force on the battlefield, without resorting to cheap smite spamming. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893726 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 I would honestly really like to see some way of incorporating the five cult disciplines. I think that perhaps the passive aura for exalted sorcerers to be based on the cult discipline plus a bonus cult spell known would be really cool and really fluffy! It would also make taking more sorcerers than Ahriman plus Magnus potentially worth it. Possible aura abilities: Corvidae: bonuses to hit/saves or reroll ones Pyrae: mortal wounds for nearby enemy units kinda like mortarion but refluffed for fire! Athanean: penalty to enemy leadership or something? Raptora: ? Pavoni: bonuses/penalties to str/toughness Possible spells: Corvidae: rerolls abound! Pyrae: some sort of mass damage to light infantry Athanean: take over enemy shooting a la 'Treason' Raptora: again ? Pavoni: Heal wounds or str/toughness bonus or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Raptora could be Kine-shield or similar for passive aura. For active I could see something like Warptime fling a ubit forward or Worldwrithe a piece of terrain, or a high AP single target telekinesis attack that attempts to crush someone. Could be interesting! With such a unique army there are so many opportunities for variety I can't see them missing it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 Fair enough, I just don't know how they would put some of those into rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted September 23, 2017 Author Share Posted September 23, 2017 Fair enough, I just don't know how they would put some of those into rules. In 30k you pick a cult and your army is now effected by the associated rule Pavoni: Units add +1 to all Run and Sweeping Advance, and Psykers harness Warp Charge for Biomancy on a 3+. Raptora: Units recieve a 6++, or +1 to an exist invul sv, and Psykers harness Warp Charge for Telekinesis on a 3+. Corvidae: Units that remain static reroll 1's to hit with shooting, and Psykers harness Warp Charge for Divination on a 3+. Athanean: immune to Fear and recieve Adamantium Will, and Psykers harness Warp Charge for Telepathy on a 3+. Pyrae: Units gain Hammer of Wrath which stacks with any pre-existing HoW, and Psykers harness WC for Pyromancy powers on a 3+. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893910 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 I was more referring to some of the things that Zodd suggested for raptora benefits like a kine shield... an army wide 6++ doesn't help us at all with our built-in 5++'s all round, though a 6+++ might work. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archaeinox Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 I just want them to make the Exalted Sorcerer worth it. Unless it's Ahriman with Weaver of Fates for a 3++ (re-rolling 1s) Invulnerable Save, the "re-rolled failed INVULNERABLE saves of 1" aura is absolute garbage and it's embarassing compared to what other aura characters provide. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4893990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 Absolutely agreed!! Which is why I think a cult specific aura effect could be really good/useful and/or provide some (in my opinion) needed variety that our list would otherwise not have unless we get the full DG treatment for models. Like most of you, I'm not holding my breath for that one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4894003 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted September 24, 2017 Author Share Posted September 24, 2017 I just want them to make the Exalted Sorcerer worth it. Unless it's Ahriman with Weaver of Fates for a 3++ (re-rolling 1s) Invulnerable Save, the "re-rolled failed INVULNERABLE saves of 1" aura is absolute garbage and it's embarassing compared to what other aura characters provide. Regular sorcerers don't even give a bonus and then the Exalted and Ahriman only do re-rolls of one. I would much rather see the same aura as a Chaos Lord, or at least an aura that works when they are on a disk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4894012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonoftherubric21 Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 Okay so since I have played almost all of my 8th games using 1k sons, we have very innate strengths which are fantastic. That being said.....we also have some big negatives id like to mention. I do agree that what we will get is; Relic sheet, Stratagem sheet, Warlord traits. We will also get a "chapter tactic" that will effect us in some given way such as the death guard advancing rule for rapid fire. So we can *count* on those sheets, we can write that down, its a given. The question is this; New units....... our primary deficiency on the table from an "effectiveness" standpoint is simple enough.... our only "re roll ones" is Invuls through *exalted* sorcerers, and Daemon Princes give "re roll ones" to hit. This is where our huge issue comes through on the table, seen to many "buff hammer" lists hiding in a corner with lots of buffs overlapping when we dont even have access to such an army build despite having true quality shooting. We already have 2 phenomenal troop options. Rubricae are fantastic and are arguably the "best" or (perhaps top 1-2) of chaos troop slot units, Tzaangors are very solid as well all around for their points cost. Discount assault marines that are a great nuisance unit. So I dont forsee much going with that. I personally find the "re roll-ones" for invul save to be incredibly useful for both rubricae and tzaangors, but this could be Meta-dependent. Now if we look at death guard; they got FIVE "elite" character slots. FIVE, all of which have unique buffs that can overlap. It also doesnt take alot of GW resources to do it. This is where I think GW will come through and drop us something. It would take very few resources and only a day or two of time to really get 1-2 "sorcerer characters" or something designed to buff Rubrics or Tzaangors. I can see this being a valid option that would be easy and not time consuming. I would not be shocked if we got 1-2 more kits, but I will be shocked if we get no more datasheets. I dont forsee them making a codex with such obvious deficiencies. So I imagine we will either get A) several new character clampacks, or option C ) a single extra clampack with probably several extra options (In my minds eye the cults would be the big thing they will take advantage of) or the other possible C option) given that we have *all* sorcerers as characters, give the basic sorcerer soemthing making him worth taking over an exalted. cult options giving him an aura. Anything beyond this? is just a massive bonus. I would wager my entire collection we will be getting either the A, B, or C option. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4894035 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I'm really hope they don;t go for the lazy option and just port over the Tzaangor, it would just be more salt in the wound that is how our release compares to the DG (Though tbf they seem to be making all of the other legions obsolete).Some kind of daemon engine, maybe like people have said and a 40k version of the battle automatia of 30k, and a heavy weapon sprue for the Rubrics (say a a plasma cannon like thing, or some kind of inferno autocannon), just give us ways to handle the Imperial super friends parking lot with Culexus support.Charecter wise, I can see a couple being possible:A seer/guide like charecter, allowing TS to reroll ones to hit and maybe an ability to either gain command points when your enemy uses them or to reduce the affect of cover. Apothecaries/Techmarine sorcerers, If DG can get them then we should, I've always believed the surviving Apothecary/techmarine sorcerers would be highly sought after, not only to protect the regular/exalted sorcerers but also to to create new ones (likewise maintain build the tanks ect), plus I can imagine both of these could have turned their powers to repair Rubrica armour/hold their souls within breached suits until a more permanent repair can be undertaken.And please, please some kind of fix to make Sarab occult actually worth taking, atm they just don;t seem good for their points in anyway and DG terminators outshien them in every way.The Fact we have not been released now makes me really hope we won;t have the Skitarri/GK treatment as otherwise why wait and leave us in this limbo when every other chaos legion has been covered? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4895193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawtooth Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 Is it unreasonable to think we might get multiple psychic disciplines? A Ynnari army, with the right models, can walk in with I think 4 disciplines? One or two extra doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Maybe at least one used by rubrics/scarabs and a second for characters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4895391 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nym Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Is it unreasonable to think we might get multiple psychic disciplines? We'll almost certainly get the Dark Hereticus AND a Tzeentch discipline, but I highly doubt we'll get anything else. And I personally think our Aspiring sorcerers will know Smite AND one power from the Tzeentch discipline. Lastly, I shall use my third eye to predict our future Legion trait... It will be called..... "Chosen of Tzeentch". It'll allow us to re-roll one die when manifesting Psychic powers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4895919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven1 Posted September 26, 2017 Author Share Posted September 26, 2017 Given the TS were specifically FAQ'd to be able to use the full Dark Hereticus discipline and DG possibly indicates we will have access to it, but at the same time DG got thier codex soon after so who knows. I wouldn't say we are in limbo. Since GW is literally re-relasing all the codexes someone has to be last plus GW has to balance popularity with new lines of products and then a mix of factions. Plus considering power creep and 8th growing pains its probably not that bad to be on the back end of the releases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4895967 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 @nym: I would be completely in board with that being a legion trait of ours! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4896221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 Something I just thought of which could be cool would be a Predator variant? Maybe with a Gatling Soulreaper or something for the the turret? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4896294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawtooth Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 I'd love a hellbrute kit that can be used to make either a Rubric Dreadnought or a sorcerer dread. I went there, Blood Angels get one :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4896331 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin777 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 A rubric dreadnaught with a double soul reaper cannon and all is dust would be pretty cool! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4896447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zodd1888 Posted September 26, 2017 Share Posted September 26, 2017 That's what I'm saying. All the shots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339720-with-an-eye-to-the-past-i-look-try-to-divine-the-future/#findComment-4896461 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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