Which primarch is next? Or will it be two?

[Master Sheol]

 

BL confirmed that both the AL Twins are DEAD, one killed by Dorn, the other one by Guilliman

I know about the one on Pluto by Dorn, but you'll have to provide proof they confirmed the other one at Guilliman's hand. First I've heard of that.

BL and GW fluff writers confirmed several times in seminaries that both twins are dead

And for now this is what happened until they will retcon the story to ruin AL fluff too

[Panzer]

I thought the black rage was the visions of Sanguinius dieing at the hands of horus and the marines living it as Sanguinius and going into a bersark kill frenzy?  Or is that something else?

 

Some believe they're Sanguinius at Terra fighting the traitors, but not all. The nature of the curse is still rather mysterious. Even more so with what Mephiston is going through currently.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Edit: that was a little snippy, sorry. Let's just say instead that until I see it in writing that both Twins are absolutely dead, I'm skeptical of the claim.

[Panzer]

 

 

BL confirmed that both the AL Twins are DEAD, one killed by Dorn, the other one by Guilliman

I know about the one on Pluto by Dorn, but you'll have to provide proof they confirmed the other one at Guilliman's hand. First I've heard of that.

BL and GW fluff writers confirmed several times in seminaries that both twins are dead

And for now this is what happened until they will retcon the story to ruin AL fluff too

 

 

AL are honestly one of the Legions who don't need a Primarch at all. They all have the "I'm Alpharius" thing going anyway. ^^

[Jackalwolf]

I personally want sanguinius to remain dead, otherwise his whole sacrifice loses value.

 

Key difference of grimdark and noblebright is consequences. If not even the most famous Imperial death has consequences since it's undone, how are we to take any narrative development or event seriously when it could be changed the next day to fit a sales and marketing strategy.

[Jackalwolf]

Following that train of thought a bit further, would you be worried that your favourite character died if sanguinius comes back like you're worried in game of thrones or would you write it off as a little interlude until he's back like you'd do in children cartoon or shows like McGuyver?

[Panzer]

I personally want sanguinius to remain dead, otherwise his whole sacrifice loses value.

 

Key difference of grimdark and noblebright is consequences. If not even the most famous Imperial death has consequences since it's undone, how are we to take any narrative development or event seriously when it could be changed the next day to fit a sales and marketing strategy.

 

Urgh I can't hear that argument anymore. It's just not true. Unless they retcon it and say he knew he comes back it wouldn't lose any value. The consequences would all still be there as well. He would still have been gone for the past 10k years in which he could have done lots of great things, the Blood Angels would still have suffered the same they did when he comes back, and so on. Just because he'd come back it wouldn't magically change what happened the past 10k years.

Following that train of thought a bit further, would you be worried that your favourite character died if sanguinius comes back like you're worried in game of thrones or would you write it off as a little interlude until he's back like you'd do in children cartoon or shows like McGuyver?

 

Yes because most don't come back and even if he comes back like Sanguinius I don't think we'd be hear to witness the next 10k years.

[toaae]

Urgh I can't hear that argument anymore. It's just not true. Unless they retcon it and say he knew he comes back it wouldn't lose any value. The consequences would all still be there as well. He would still have been gone for the past 10k years in which he could have done lots of great things, the Blood Angels would still have suffered the same they did when he comes back, and so on. Just because he'd come back it wouldn't magically change what happened the past 10k years.

I can't hear this one anymore. The "past" would be the past, and while it may not change (and it certainly might, with further retcons), the present story would have that aspect watered down. 40k Blood Angels are about their curse, which stems from the death of their primarch. Bringing him back, making him not dead, would mean their curse is now unnecessary, and I have no faith anyone at GW or Black Library could write out of that conundrum. It would probably be more poor, hand-waving, Belisarius Cawl level stuff, weakening the story to sell a model.

 

Besides, Sanguinius is best as a dead character. This seemingly perfect being struck down by the ultimate evil. Dante is more interesting as a character than Sanguinius is or was. Explore him more, build him up if you need a Blood Angel character. He has real, believable flaws, while still having to lead a chapter afflicted by Sanguinius's curse. That's more interesting than the return of the winged wonder-boy.

 

Though, preferably, I'd like them to stop focusing on characters and focus more on the setting, but that ship has sailed.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

By that fact .... why not Dorn?

Because Dorn is dead.

Nope.

 

 

Indeed. There is some canon conflict from the book that "killed" him (and then later made it only his hand) but the fact is that while Dorn likely has a chainsword hook for a hand, he's not dead. Actually I could see ol' Pert holding him captive somewhere in the Eye of Terror and mocking him with every Imperial Fist that dies to an Iron Warrior...

 

[Panzer]

 

Urgh I can't hear that argument anymore. It's just not true. Unless they retcon it and say he knew he comes back it wouldn't lose any value. The consequences would all still be there as well. He would still have been gone for the past 10k years in which he could have done lots of great things, the Blood Angels would still have suffered the same they did when he comes back, and so on. Just because he'd come back it wouldn't magically change what happened the past 10k years.

I can't hear this one anymore. The "past" would be the past, and while it may not change (and it certainly might, with further retcons), the present story would have that aspect watered down. 40k Blood Angels are about their curse, which stems from the death of their primarch. Bringing him back, making him not dead, would mean their curse is now unnecessary, and I have no faith anyone at GW or Black Library could write out of that conundrum. It would probably be more poor, hand-waving, Belisarius Cawl level stuff, weakening the story to sell a model.

 

 

 

The Red Thirst does not come from his death and the true nature of the Black Rage is still more or less unknown. It being a psychic backlash from his death is just one theory (tho the most likely I guess). It's also not said that it would end just because he got resurrected. His death still happened so the psychic backlash should still be there even if he comes back.

The most important part of their twin curse would still be there with his return and the other part is unknown whether it would stay or not but odds are that it would stay because the event that triggered it would still have happened and GW wouldn't do away with the Deathcompany nor that part of the 40k Blood Angels narrative.

[BitsHammer]

 

One thing that was mentioned that I do think would happen would be Dorn opting to lead the Templars on his return. GW has already kind of set the reason for it as well. The Fists as we know them aren't really technically a First Founding chapter anymore, their initial legacy having died out and been resurrected, while the Black Templars are descended from the beginning from those warriors who fought under him. I could even see him adopting the Templars as his "Chapter" and the sons of Dorn all being rolled into a Black Templars codex letting you play as several successor Chapters or the fists. Having a Primarch to anchor it could make it a bigger showing than they'd normally get for BT armies, and I could see him deciding after 10,000 years that it's time to stop hiding behind walls and take the fight to the enemy.

 

The Fists Exemplar, like the Black Templars, were a 2nd Founding Chapter, so their pedigree is every bit as VIIth Legion as the Black Templars. In this, they are closer to the 2nd Founding Imperial Fists Chapter (which Dorn led until his death) than the Black Templars.

 

 

I'd argue that Geneseed wise the new Primaris Sons of Dorn of all colors are closer to the VII legion than any of the successors were before if only due to being taken from the original geneseed stock and not the mutated geneseed that was handed down for generations.

 

Then again I'm the same person who has my Primaris dressing up like the VII legion and running a crusade of pre-Heresy proportions looking for their Primarch so take that with some salt.

 

 

As far back as 3rd Edition, Ferrus Manus was prophesied to return and lead his sons at Mankind's darkest hour. Index Astartes: look it up.

 

 

/broken record

inb4 Cawl makes him a shiny new replacement cranium

 

 

It worked for ol Ghazzy, right? I mean Cawl IS a master of cloning according to the HH book he was in so cloning a new head could be a thing he could do. Especially since it seems cloning Ferrus doesn't result in a loss of his memories.

[BitsHammer]

 

I think there will be 4 on each side eventually. The 4th loyalist being Dorn or the Khan

The problem with Dorn is that he doesn't really bring anything different to the table. How in game terms would he really separate himself from Guilliman? Oh boy a super duper gun line buffer dude! Oh he gets 6 extra dice against buildings! Wooohooo

 

The Khan would be the far more interesting choice. The problem is, I think the writing is on the wall that they are setting up for Sanguinius too be resurrected.

 

For GW it makes a lot of sense to give the main four codexes Primarchs. Giving DA and SW their primarch and the two for codex marines, while leaving out BA would not be a smart sales/ marketing strategy.

 

The Khan and Vulcan would be far more interesting and are already setup to return. But GW is going to make the sales choice: they will change what happens on the Vengeful Spirit at Terra through the BL novels and then resurrect the Sanguinius giving each major marine faction a Primarch.

 

 

Dorn and Guilliman played differently in the Heresy game, and I could see that extending into Dorn's return. I mean, we don't know what Dorn has been through since he vanished or how much he's changed.

 

My hope is he gets the iconic mustache that we all know from the fan art though.

 

[Red_Shift]

Dorn with glorious moustache would be an awesome primarch release.

[BitsHammer]

Dorn with glorious moustache would be an awesome primarch release.

It's right up there with Russ having a beard: it needs to happen, even if it means an extra headsculpt or seperate part is required.

[Jackalwolf]

 

 

I personally want sanguinius to remain dead, otherwise his whole sacrifice loses value.

 

Key difference of grimdark and noblebright is consequences. If not even the most famous Imperial death has consequences since it's undone, how are we to take any narrative development or event seriously when it could be changed the next day to fit a sales and marketing strategy.

Urgh I can't hear that argument anymore. It's just not true. Unless they retcon it and say he knew he comes back it wouldn't lose any value. The consequences would all still be there as well. He would still have been gone for the past 10k years in which he could have done lots of great things, the Blood Angels would still have suffered the same they did when he comes back, and so on. Just because he'd come back it wouldn't magically change what happened the past 10k years.

Following that train of thought a bit further, would you be worried that your favourite character died if sanguinius comes back like you're worried in game of thrones or would you write it off as a little interlude until he's back like you'd do in children cartoon or shows like McGuyver?

Yes because most don't come back and even if he comes back like Sanguinius I don't think we'd be hear to witness the next 10k years.

Don't know mate... I see your point but still it would leave me lukewarm like... next they'll bring back too the two dead space wolves lords et al.

 

I could get around it if the price paid for his return was immense, aka him returning as an imperial 'demon' of frothing rage devoid of all his past perfection, but that would be tough for blood angels fans.

 

EDIT: Or him returning as a being tortured by visions of his own death, all his hopeful nature gone, effectively giving us a Primarch much more similar to 30k Curze.

 

That one would have so many narrative opportunities.

[BitsHammer]

Here's my "hot take" on resurrecting Primarchs:

1. We know that cloned Primarchs can retain their memories (Ferrus Manus did for instance)

2. We know that only with their souls can they be at full power and not be some crippled thing

 

So basically, if they're coming back we need them to likely be cloned and their souls to be returned to their bodies OR for Yvrainne to pull more of that voodoo magic and rewind time on the bodies like she did the Rubric to restore them (this isn't counting Imperial Daemon stuff as those should be a thing too, but be less overt in how they work than Chaos ones....like the Sanguinor becoming possessed by Sanguinius (it worked for Sigmar after all!) or something instead of us getting a Daemon Prince Sanguinius).

 

That said, I don't think EVERY dead Primarch should come back, leave some cards off the table for the future so we don't blow through everything right away after all, and it's possible that, like Horus, Sangiunius should never return (assuming they both had their souls torn apart and it wasn't just Horus).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

By that fact .... why not Dorn?

Because Dorn is dead.

Nope.

 

 

Indeed. There is some canon conflict from the book that "killed" him (and then later made it only his hand) but the fact is that while Dorn likely has a chainsword hook for a hand, he's not dead. Actually I could see ol' Pert holding him captive somewhere in the Eye of Terror and mocking him with every Imperial Fist that dies to an Iron Warrior...

 

 

 

I knew there is a reason why I don't like you .

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

 

By that fact .... why not Dorn?

Because Dorn is dead.

Nope.

 

 

Indeed. There is some canon conflict from the book that "killed" him (and then later made it only his hand) but the fact is that while Dorn likely has a chainsword hook for a hand, he's not dead. Actually I could see ol' Pert holding him captive somewhere in the Eye of Terror and mocking him with every Imperial Fist that dies to an Iron Warrior...

 

 

 

I knew there is a reason why I don't like you .

 

Point was that he could be very well be alive and his disappearance could be well explained since Pert is a spiteful old coot who'd love to break Dorn's will. You know, instead of "the Warp did it" or "the Emperor did it" or "he felt tired and buggered off for some time and forgot to help his sons fight the Beast leading to them all dying".

[Elzender]

Sanguinius death was a key part in symbolising the death of the GC-era Imperium, and it also shaped the new vision of the post-Heresy Imperium of Man. Dying for the Emperor is one of the main mantras of the Imperium, and Sanguinius death is the major example. The Sanguinala is one of the most important eventd, and probably one of the few actual holidays in the Imperium, where all citizens honour his sacrifice.

 

I recall this discussion flaring up during Baal's siege, and there was one idea that to me could be more interesting: the Sanguinor being empowered by the deaths of so many of Sanguinius' sons. This could even go two different ways: making him even more of an incarnation or manifestation of Sanguinius soul (not a resurrection or full reincarnation, but a bit more like an avatar of Khaine); or, the psychic backlash of hundreds of marines becoming afflicted by the Red Thirst and the Black Rage and dying in battle transform him into a literal Angel of Death, a winged frothing berserker sweeping enemies in a whirlwind of rage and gore.

 

Nonetheless, I think if GW planned to give the Blood Angels a new major character, it should have been during the defence of Baal, as it would have tied very well with the theme of Sacrifice, a major aspect of the sons of Sanguinius.

[SickSix]

Nonetheless, I think if GW planned to give the Blood Angels a new major character, it should have been during the defence of Baal, as it would have tied very well with the theme of Sacrifice, a major aspect of the sons of Sanguinius.

Yes, just like Magnus destroying Fenris was the perfect time to resurrect Russ... but they didnt. Or when Demons let Luther out of the Rock, perfect time for the Lion...

 

GW writes themselves into corners consistently.

[FlamingDeth]

RE: Luther's great escape, I would be willing to bet that it's stage 1 of NEW GW!'s Dark Angels plot. With all the talk of the fallen gathering and Luther's escape it feels like they're trying to develop Fallen Angels as a more legit threat, maybe set up some kind of siege on the Tower of Angels or something, and from there they'll go about waking up the Lion. That one at least o don't think is writing themselves into a corner. Russ is a different story though.

[BitsHammer]

While we had many opportunities for returns, I applaud GW for not just throwing them all on the table at once. This lets us watch a story play out instead of "a bunch of stuff happens, here are your stupid Primarchs, now go spend some money or something" like we would have gotten under Kirby.

[Marshal Rohr]

After perusing the Index Astartes articles, Primarchs with return Prophecies/Missing in Action: Russ, Corax, Khan. Primarchs in near death conditions/stasis: Guilliman and the Lion. Dead Loyalist Primarchs: Sanguinius and Dorn. Unknown condition, but mentioned being alive post-Heresy: Ferrus and Vulkan. 

[BitsHammer]

After perusing the Index Astartes articles, Primarchs with return Prophecies/Missing in Action: Russ, Corax, Khan. Primarchs in near death conditions/stasis: Guilliman and the Lion. Dead Loyalist Primarchs: Sanguinius and Dorn. Unknown condition, but mentioned being alive post-Heresy: Ferrus and Vulkan. 

*ahem*: DORN IS NOT DEAD.

 

He wasn't dead by the end of the book where he went missing and VULKAN mentioned he was alive during the Beast series.

 

Also Ferrus is EXTRA dead. Like, he needed to stop fighting Fulgrim while he was ahead. Or had a head.

 

Ferrus was cloned several times to try and bring him back and get him to switch sides but was rekilled several times after he died. His GHOST was seen at one point and the Emperor talks about "remaking" him.

 

So yeah, you mixed up some Primarchs there.

[Marshal Loss]

 

After perusing the Index Astartes articles, Primarchs with return Prophecies/Missing in Action: Russ, Corax, Khan. Primarchs in near death conditions/stasis: Guilliman and the Lion. Dead Loyalist Primarchs: Sanguinius and Dorn. Unknown condition, but mentioned being alive post-Heresy: Ferrus and Vulkan. 

*ahem*: DORN IS NOT DEAD.

 

He wasn't dead by the end of the book where he went missing and VULKAN mentioned he was alive during the Beast series.

 

Also Ferrus is EXTRA dead. Like, he needed to stop fighting Fulgrim while he was ahead. Or had a head.

 

Ferrus was cloned several times to try and bring him back and get him to switch sides but was rekilled several times after he died. His GHOST was seen at one point and the Emperor talks about "remaking" him.

 

So yeah, you mixed up some Primarchs there.

 

 

*ahem*

 

He was just noting the state of the Primarchs as of the Index Astartes era. It's important to take this into account because IA's publication marked the first time where we were given a coherent series of accounts detailing all of the Primarchs, written simultaneously/intended to be viewed together.

 

On another note, for the record, you are (I'll assume inadvertently) discounting sources that do not corroborate your view: Curze's prophetic visions of Dorn's death, for example.

 

So yeah, you missed the point there, and he didn't mix anything up.