Ishagu Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Yeah by all accounts his strategies are even more meticulous that Guilliman's but he doesn't inspire the same loyalty and lacks political acumen. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5171741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Yeah by all accounts his strategies are even more meticulous that Guilliman's but he doesn't inspire the same loyalty and lacks political acumen. Communication is needed to build trust in a person and the Lion is bad at communicating. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172050 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 It's debatable whether the Lion is a better general than Guilliman. He might have more intricate battle plans but he would be inferior at managing his resources or the morale of his army.The Lion could be a better general, a better huntsman / warrior, a better leader in battle. Nobody beats Guilliman on logistics, politics and strategic approach. The Lion can surely win you battles, but you need Guilliman to win a war. Dorn is a bit of a middle-ground, just as tactically apt as the other two, even better at logistics than any of them, but had no patience for politics or grand strategy (shown in his relations with the High Lords and Malcador the Sigillite). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172138 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 It's debatable whether the Lion is a better general than Guilliman. He might have more intricate battle plans but he would be inferior at managing his resources or the morale of his army.The Lion could be a better general, a better huntsman / warrior, a better leader in battle. Nobody beats Guilliman on logistics, politics and strategic approach. The Lion can surely win you battles, but you need Guilliman to win a war. Dorn is a bit of a middle-ground, just as tactically apt as the other two, even better at logistics than any of them, but had no patience for politics or grand strategy (shown in his relations with the High Lords and Malcador the Sigillite). Dorn was also a poor communicator who couldn't soften the blow of his words, namely because he spoke truthfully regardless of how blunt or painful that truth was. Communication wise, he's a hammer while someone like Guilliman is more like a rapier: quicker to respond and cuts to the point more cleanly without as much mess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Triszin Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I dunno. I think its a high possibility we get Beast GHaz Abaddon then its up in the air if its either fulgrim or russ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Remember Abbaspawn ? LOL ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 I really would love a beast boosted Ghaz. Make him a 8/9 wound Ork with toughness 6, 8" movement, some great close combat skills and some tasty auras like adding a few inches to movement and ignoring morale for units close by. Also a bigger model, more dynamic, plastic model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spessmarine Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Rather than just speculate who would come back, what do you think of how they'd be on the tabletop? I hope they don't make any of them buff machines like Guilliman, or too well-rounded and lacking weaknesses. Khan would be bike man who buffs just bikes. Corax being the squishy, stealthy, blob-blender. A unique role for someone like Lion is a little trickier. The Lion is the supreme strategist so he should buff DA like RG does with UM or even betterPlease not another Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172417 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 11, 2018 Share Posted October 11, 2018 Yeah I agree... there is nothing stated by GW to indicate there will be any other Primarchs/PDPs - to me they just will add more imbalance. The only people I ever see mention are certain bloggers and podcasters . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yeah I agree... there is nothing stated by GW to indicate there will be any other Primarchs/PDPs - to me they just will add more imbalance. The only people I ever see mention are certain bloggers and podcasters . I can see it if only to sell to people who collect armies like Dark Angels. That said, I don't expect it until we see another campaign of some kind to justify it. Like maybe they find Vulkan on Vigilus running a store selling ceramics or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172479 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Dorn was also a poor communicator who couldn't soften the blow of his words, namely because he spoke truthfully regardless of how blunt or painful that truth was. Communication wise, he's a hammer while someone like Guilliman is more like a rapier: quicker to respond and cuts to the point more cleanly without as much mess.I rather feel that he was a great communicator when he deigned to be, that's a given for a leader, but also (as somebody who is himself) I recognize that he was probably somebody on the autistic spectrum, however highly functional. The almost obsessive meticulousness of his defense, the prodigious architectural designs and eye for detail and discrepancies that allowed him to read even through Alpha Legion / Alpharius bull:cuss disinformation / psyops tactics, etc.; He wasn't blunt and brash, dismissive with his interlocutors. He instead seemed to have issues with recognizing where and when the battlefield's "cut the bull:cuss and speak plainly" stance was not the optimal or even constructive one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172484 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Dorn was also a poor communicator who couldn't soften the blow of his words, namely because he spoke truthfully regardless of how blunt or painful that truth was. Communication wise, he's a hammer while someone like Guilliman is more like a rapier: quicker to respond and cuts to the point more cleanly without as much mess.I rather feel that he was a great communicator when he deigned to be, that's a given for a leader, but also (as somebody who is himself) I recognize that he was probably somebody on the autistic spectrum, however highly functional. The almost obsessive meticulousness of his defense, the prodigious architectural designs and eye for detail and discrepancies that allowed him to read even through Alpha Legion / Alpharius bull:cuss disinformation / psyops tactics, etc.; He wasn't blunt and brash, dismissive with his interlocutors. He instead seemed to have issues with recognizing where and when the battlefield's "cut the bull:cuss and speak plainly" stance was not the optimal or even constructive one. I can agree with that. I'm honest to a fault at times and highly opinionated so I can appreciate that from Dorn, but it's something that causes friction when dealing with people who need softer handling due to their fragile egos *cough*PERTURABO*cough*, sorry something in my throat... What was I saying? Ah, yes. Sometimes it causes more problems than it fixes and while Dorn's nature is great when he's working, the fact he can't turn it off when doing anything else is the problem and more my point. Guilliman can do that better than Dorn can and while Guilliman has his own shortcomings (such as being so sure of his ability to read a situation to its natural conclusion that he went off and built a second Imperium before confirming that the existing one was dead, or falling into Fulgrim's trap despite knowing it was a trap), his ability to handle people in those situations is leagues ahead of Dorn's (says too much) and the Lion's (doesn't say enough). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172487 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spessmarine Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yeah I agree... there is nothing stated by GW to indicate there will be any other Primarchs/PDPs - to me they just will add more imbalance. The only people I ever see mention are certain bloggers and podcasters .I certainly would be disappointed if they didn't release more, especially since they did half the Daemon ones. I just don't want another Guilliman. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yeah I agree... there is nothing stated by GW to indicate there will be any other Primarchs/PDPs - to me they just will add more imbalance. The only people I ever see mention are certain bloggers and podcasters .I certainly would be disappointed if they didn't release more, especially since they did half the Daemon ones.I just don't want another Guilliman. The Lion seems like he'd be good at smacking characters/monsters (or at least monsters considering his history), give the army a CP bonus and maybe allow you to redeploy some units on the fly before the first turn begins. That's just how I'd write his rules at least. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gederas Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I rather feel that he was a great communicator when he deigned to be, that's a given for a leader, but also (as somebody who is himself) I recognize that he was probably somebody on the autistic spectrum, however highly functional. The almost obsessive meticulousness of his defense, the prodigious architectural designs and eye for detail and discrepancies that allowed him to read even through Alpha Legion / Alpharius bull:cuss disinformation / psyops tactics, etc.; He wasn't blunt and brash, dismissive with his interlocutors. He instead seemed to have issues with recognizing where and when the battlefield's "cut the bull:cuss and speak plainly" stance was not the optimal or even constructive one. Honestly, I get the feeling that ALL of the Primarchs are on the spectrum, with some being more functional than others. Now, was to which Primarch is next.... Most likely Fulgrim. Go to the "Sprue and You" video, and look at the tags. We're gonna have Slaaneshmas That being said, I would indeed enjoy having the Lion return, if only giving me a reason to dust off my Dark Angels for some games because he'd likely change up the playstyle and tactics. Because I'm honestly BORED with playing them, as Deathwing don't work, Ravenwing are decent but gimmicky and suffer from low Command Points, and Greenwing is "Azrael in a horde of Hellblasters and laugh". Which sucks because I love the aesthetics of the army, but can't bring myself to enjoy playing them right now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5172523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracos Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Corax. Would be tactically different from RG or the other shooty Primarchs ... and with all love to the BA, I think Sanguinius staying dead is better story telling. 40k shouldnt be using comic book tropes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173002 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 If I could choose it would be Sanguinuis all day . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173052 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spessmarine Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Corax. Would be tactically different from RG or the other shooty Primarchs ... and with all love to the BA, I think Sanguinius staying dead is better story telling. 40k shouldnt be using comic book tropes. yes please, he'd play differently and have actual weaknessesanything but a mega reroll aura surrounded by blobs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 It's not about what can be justified from a lore perspective. It's not even about what fans want. It's about what's best for the setting as a whole. The problem is that people just don't know what's best for themselves. They're all like "Squeeeee! Primarchs!" but then the reality of the situation sets in, they realise that having Guilliman stomping around the galaxy doesn't match the hype (because how could anything match that?) and that the anticipation is actually more enjoyable than the fulfilment. And suddenly GW has lost a bunch of interesting mystery because we know exactly what the lost Primarchs are up to and where they are and what they're doing now they're back. And we're all disappointed because it doesn't live up to the awesome ideas we had in our heads about how it was all going to go down. They never should have brought Guilliman back, and bringing back any more would just be doubling down on the mistake. I'm gonna have to disagree. Aside from Primaris marines, I am very much enjoying the lore of Guilliman being brought back. His personality and how it has grown was one of the best parts of 40k lore for me. The way his hair is greying, and he has pretty much given up on trying to say "My father was not a God" to all the religious zealots around him, the stress of trying to keep this failing empire alive. All of these things have turned Guilliman's character into something heavier. He's not fighting for a bright future anymore (he says this himself in his thoughts), he's merely fighting for the survival of man. Back in 30k, Guilliman thought the war against Chaos was close to ending and would probably take a few centuries at most. He wakes up nearly 10,000 years later, and not only is the war still going on, but things have gotten worse than they were when he was last awake. The way he had to confront this nightmarish reality was pretty cool to read. And the personal debates he has with himself over the nature of the Emperor have been some of the coolest philosophical parts of 40k lore. He realizes that he is disgusted by the Emperor's true personality, but also knows that he himself is growing to resemble the Emperor more and more each day (Guilliman is turning into a tyrannical, unfeeling being who sees others as tools and only cares about improving humanity as a whole). There's also the theological debates he has with himself over what the Emperor is at this point. He refuses to admit that the Emperor is a god, but witnesses so many miracles that he can't help but think of the Emperor as 'Divine' near the end of Dark Imperium. The cognitive dissonance that plays out within Guilliman's head, coupled with the horror he went through when he woke up, was a great read. So I'm going to have to say that I'm glad Guilliman came back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Yeah, Guilliman's return has been fantastic imo. Great stories surround him and I think he DOES live up to the hype completely. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173078 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 It's not about what can be justified from a lore perspective. It's not even about what fans want. It's about what's best for the setting as a whole. The problem is that people just don't know what's best for themselves. They're all like "Squeeeee! Primarchs!" but then the reality of the situation sets in, they realise that having Guilliman stomping around the galaxy doesn't match the hype (because how could anything match that?) and that the anticipation is actually more enjoyable than the fulfilment. And suddenly GW has lost a bunch of interesting mystery because we know exactly what the lost Primarchs are up to and where they are and what they're doing now they're back. And we're all disappointed because it doesn't live up to the awesome ideas we had in our heads about how it was all going to go down. They never should have brought Guilliman back, and bringing back any more would just be doubling down on the mistake. I'm gonna have to disagree. Aside from Primaris marines, I am very much enjoying the lore of Guilliman being brought back. His personality and how it has grown was one of the best parts of 40k lore for me. The way his hair is greying, and he has pretty much given up on trying to say "My father was not a God" to all the religious zealots around him, the stress of trying to keep this failing empire alive. All of these things have turned Guilliman's character into something heavier. He's not fighting for a bright future anymore (he says this himself in his thoughts), he's merely fighting for the survival of man. Back in 30k, Guilliman thought the war against Chaos was close to ending and would probably take a few centuries at most. He wakes up nearly 10,000 years later, and not only is the war still going on, but things have gotten worse than they were when he was last awake. The way he had to confront this nightmarish reality was pretty cool to read. And the personal debates he has with himself over the nature of the Emperor have been some of the coolest philosophical parts of 40k lore. He realizes that he is disgusted by the Emperor's true personality, but also knows that he himself is growing to resemble the Emperor more and more each day (Guilliman is turning into a tyrannical, unfeeling being who sees others as tools and only cares about improving humanity as a whole). There's also the theological debates he has with himself over what the Emperor is at this point. He refuses to admit that the Emperor is a god, but witnesses so many miracles that he can't help but think of the Emperor as 'Divine' near the end of Dark Imperium. The cognitive dissonance that plays out within Guilliman's head, coupled with the horror he went through when he woke up, was a great read. So I'm going to have to say that I'm glad Guilliman came back. What books do you recommend with returned Guilliman then? Is the above from codex snippets and quotes or particular novels? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Dark Imperium novel. Great insight into Guilliman's thoughts and struggled upon return. Despite all his gifts, charisma and power the job of saving the Imperium might just be too much for him. Dark Imperium 2 is out tomorrow also. Can't be more hyped! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173082 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Speaking of which... It's now available for download as an ebook!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173084 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 O SNAP !!!!! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsHammer Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Yeah, Guilliman's return has been fantastic imo. Great stories surround him and I think he DOES live up to the hype completely. To steal a bit from DBZ Abridged: "Guilliman, it's starting to sound like you believe your own hype." "I AM THE HYPE!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/339977-which-primarch-is-next-or-will-it-be-two/page/31/#findComment-5173108 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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