CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Woe to the Vanquished]

I’ll have to look st Kill Team Blackthorn then! I actually have a spare marine on the painting table I’m considering making a Tauran. Since I’m just getting back into actually making armies and stuff for this hobby I’m torn between Scythes of the emperor and Taursns, lol

[Brother Lunkhead]

Well, I would've thought the fact that I went on to discuss Woe's ideas showed that I am still keen to develop the Tauran! My point is that I cannot develop the Chapter on my own, as that isn't very collaborative at all.

 

Also, if you follow anything else on the board that I do (Kill-Team Blackthorn, for example) you may know my wife is quite ill at the moment, which limits the amount of time I can spend in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future.

 

Still, fresh blood and fresh ideas are exactly what we need, so I will take a look at this thread over the weekend and see what I can do to support!

 

(Wouldn't a member of the Tauran be awesome in Blackthorn?)

 

Well, it didn't which is why I asked the question..... I liked the collaborative aspect of this project and for a while it was getting a lot of input, and for a while your participation as a collaborator and referee were generous and well balanced. I never felt that you were taking over the project. I do feel that if we are going to move forward we will have to compromise  with less populous inputs.

 

Also, I don't follow much on the board in detail so I was unaware of your wife's illness..... my sincere sympathy. My wife is gravely ill which is a major factor in my limited involvement here as well.

 

In spite of it's fits and jumps, I find this an interesting project and would like to see it to conclusion, so the Tauran can be used actively in some of the campaigns here. I for one will take whatever degree of input we can get to move the Tauran along

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Yes, I have lived through spousal illness, and it’s a nightmare. My sympathies Commisar Molotov.

 

That said, let’s sssign this chapter certain baseline characteristics before we move forward. For instance, does this chapter still exist? Has this chapter continuously existed since its founding, unlike say, the Raptors (arguably). Is this chapter still loyal to the Imperium? Is it still considered loyal by the Imperium at large? I’d say the answer to all these questions is yes.

 

More controversially, we can ask certain other questions. Does this chapter have a home world? Does this chapter still possess it’s world? Is this chapter fleet based? Is this chapter significantly divergent from Marine norms?

 

To answer those questions above, I’d say yes, no, yes, no as simple answers above. Perhaps we could agree on these simple questions before we get too deep into the weeds of lore - despite what I’ve previously posted as personal preference. Again, this is in the service of a group consensus. If there is no group, then this becomes, by default, a personal Liber article. However, a three person group is still a group and can still produce wonder fiction for the betterment of the community.

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Heyo, double post.

 

So Apologist has been doing wonderful things with the Nova Terra Interregnum over at his Alien Wars blog in Works in Progress. I spent the night reading that, and I gotta say it's almost daunting to live up to that level of writing. Regardless, I figured I'd give it a try.

 

 

 

+++Tauran Astartes+++ 

 

The Tauran Astartes, alternatively known as The Taurans, are a chapter of unusual history, if not particularly notable founding. Born in the centuries immediately preceding the Nova Terra Interregnum, they were founded less as a response to a direct need, and more as a general replacement for chapters deemed lost, corrupted, or simply killed outright. Surviving records indicate the Taurans were most likely drawn from White Scars gene seed, but were not staffed exclusively from White Scars and successor veterans at is outset. Whether this  was a rare bout of experimentation on the part of the Adeptus Mechanicus, or if it was a calculated attempt at ameliorating the distrust some felt at the more unorthodox chapters of the Imperium is not known. The Roll Call of Founding, an ancient and short lived custom where newly founded chapters are named in great ceremony and detail, lists no less than 4 different Astartes chapters providing veterans to guide the Taurans through their founding years. While some of the veterans hailed from the White Scars and Rampagers chapters,  the majority of founding cadre were Crimson Fists and Black Templar Astartes in a move that puzzles scholars to this day.

 

Perhaps it was an experiment conducted in determining if the nature of an Astartes is bred into his gene seed or if it is fostered by his training. Perhaps it was simply a case of wishing to produce more Imperial Fist successor chapters but having scant resources to do so in the wake of the recent War of the Beast. Whatever the motivation, the mix of White Scars gene-seed combined with Imperial Fist upbringing produced a young chapter that was quick to anger, stubborn, honor bound, and perhaps exceedingly independent - even by Astartes standards. 

 

The Taurans almost immediately drop out of the histories for several centuries only reappearing the outset of the Nova Terra Interregnum by dint of their proximity to the de facto border between the two Imperiums. Like many of the Astartes chapters of the time, the Taurans assumed a posture of neutrality and focused on the neglected tasks of Xenos extermination and patrol of now abandoned invasion routes. Perhaps unlike many other chapters, they aggressively declared their neutrality in person to both the High Lords of Terra and the Ur-Council on Constantium. Even more surprisingly, they took the opportunity to claim the world of El Nuevo Domum and its attendant tertiary Fleet Pacificus Naval Refit Yard as Protectorate Inviolate. This stretched the Tauran fiefs to 8 systems and provided them with greatly enhanced fleet repair, refit, and augmentation abilities. In the chaos of the early secession, neither side was willing to risk an Astartes chapter openly declaring for their enemies, so the act of aggression was overlooked or studiously ignored. 

 

That's what I have so far for founding. I was intrigued by the idea that a White Scars founding is probably relatively rare at this time. It seems like it takes some time after the Heresy to get over the mistrust the HIgh Lords have for any legion not named Imperial Fist, Blood Angel, or espeically Ultramarines. Another idea I like is that relatively rarely do we see an exceedingly young chapter interacting with the Imperium at large. Just how much does a chapter trade on it's history and battle record and how much does a chapter simply have sway by dint of being Astartes? I'd really like to explore that and a chapter's early history more than the Charcharadon-esque crusading fleet banishment of later years.

 

Again, your thoughts are always appreciated. I may be shouting into the void, but I welcome all counter-argument, feedbnack, and outright rejection of my ideas. 

[Commissar Molotov]

I certainly feel that the Tauran should be around before the Nova Terra Interregnum. Any Chapter created during the schism will have automatic loyalty towards either Terra or Constantinium. If a Chapter exists beforehand, then they have to make a choice - and unlike the many Chapters of the Astartes that kept themselves neutral, the Tauran made a mistake that forced them to change their ways and their relationships with other Imperial institutions. 

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Yeah, I’ve tried to set them up as victims of circumstance. Young, inexperienced (by Astartes standards) and perhaps a little haughty. This will get them into a situation a more level headed chapter would have avoided. It is unfortunate they find themselves it’s the crossroads of competing empires.

 

Wars of a Faith especially can be quite messy. I’m sure more than one Frateris Templar fleet has disregarded delicate political balances and the neutrality of third parties.

[Zhiv]

It bugs me a bit that they had eight systems, considering that most chapters sit on one (yeah, Ulramarines are bit special).  Also, going from 7 to 8 sounds rather insignificant compared to going from one to two.

 

I'm also going to toss a ball at the neutrality.  Neutrality is not much of a story. Having taken a side would expand the story and have them had stake in things.  Of course we cannot claim that Taurans were influential, but maybe it'd be possible to write them to have a part? That would let them either bask in glory OR redeem themselves after the Nova Terra Interregnum.

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Good points, Zhiv! Thanks for the feedback.

 

My general idea was that neutrality was the initial stance taken by the taurans. If the initial founding ideas meet with approval, we can discuss how that neutrality was eventually violated - by either the Taurans themselves or by the factions involved in the Nova Terra Interregnum. As for the 8 systems, I perhaps didn’t make it clear that it was more of a core defensive sub sector the Marines were guarding - the systems weren’t direct vassals like the Ultramar region, but more of a statement of core Tauran interests.

 

Think of the Monroe Doctrine of the early 20th century in America. The Taurans, perhaps haughtily, declare that these now 8 systems, including this new strategic asset in the fleet yards, are guaranteed by the Taurans. They, OF COURSE (wink wink), have no intention of turning these systems into vassals, but no one should mess with them. They are important for defense from Xenos threats - perhaps a burgeoning Orkish empire on the region.

 

Again, none of this has to make it into the final IA article. I’m just building a complete history that we can lose, redact, and otherwise obscure. Basically, the Taurans are drawn in to the Interregnum by degrees until, perhaps they go too far - prompting an Astartes response. This eventually propels them on their ongoing crusade.

 

Again, we don’t have to use this idea at all. If someone can come up with a cooler story, I’m all for doing that.

[Zhiv]

No worries.  My philosophy teacher taught me that every thesis ought to meet anti-thesis, so that we could have synthesis - merging of ideas.  My poking at your ideas does not mean that they are bad ideas. Just that I think that we can make something out of those ideas. This is a collaborative thread after all.  This is how these threads worked back when Index Astartes articles were all the rage. Ideas met, got refined until we had some sort of consensus what made sense or seemed cool as... f....fridge. 

 

Anyhow, that is to say that your ideas are workable, very much so. I am personally interested in Taurans having to redeem themselves, but they might have been the unsung heroes as well, protecting the Empire as the civil war was fought. 

 

I don't mind the land grab either, but there is something called 'Hawk principle', based on a story in Decamerone where a nobleman slaughter's his falcon to feed the lady he wants to marry - in the end disappointing her as she wanted to see the bird.  The story begins with the man hunting and being proud of his hawk - the hawk is laid down to be important so that the story can revolve around it.  Thus, if and if Taurans do a land grab (space grab?) it ought to be significant expansion or challenge to the current circumstances. It ought to mean something and not just be.  I.e. the idea is not bad, but it ought to be tied to the storyline. 

 

So maybe Taurans feel they need more resources to defend that particular corner of the space and the Imperium, wrecked by civil war is not able to support them.  Maybe the Tauran chapter master takes a political stance (shock, horror) by helping one faction over another to secure safety of a world before ork / tyranid invasion.  Maybe this bring the new worlds and docks under their influence. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hail Brother Woe. I like what you've done so far. The eight system area of interest sounds very plausible. Thanks for expounding on that. Let me get to the meat of the subject.... Who's side do you see them taking?

 

Alsooo……. are you on board with previous ideas discussed before you came on board?...… any suggested changes or concerns?

 

I liked your idea of the four Astartes chapters guiding their founding. Have you thought about how that affects the chapter?

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Hail Brother Woe. I like what you've done so far. The eight system area of interest sounds very plausible. Thanks for expounding on that. Let me get to the meat of the subject.... Who's side do you see them taking?

 

Alsooo……. are you on board with previous ideas discussed before you came on board?...… any suggested changes or concerns?

 

I liked your idea of the four Astartes chapters guiding their founding. Have you thought about how that affects the chapter?

 

So, I've looked through the thread again, and I believe I can incorporate almost all the themes brought up so far. I'm still kind of struggling to come up with a coherent world story for their homeworld, so I thought about what possibly binds Spanish/Iberian feudal society and early age of exploration society with Masaii Culture. The answer I came up with is colonization. The Iberian peninsula is invaded, counter-invaded, and generally pulled one way or the other throughout the Middle Ages. Subsequently, they launch the early colonization efforts of Europe. The Massai (apologies for butchering that name) likewise are a tribal society that has been colonized, modified, and ultimately profoundly changed by the arrival of a vastly stronger force from far away.

 

Combat doctrine is something I haven't thought of at all, because A) They're Space Marines, they're always good at everything, and we need to establish things like Mechanicum relationships, lines of resupply, and general involvement in the events of recent years (Primaris, Guilleman, et. al.) before we can definitely establish how they operate. I'm leery of turning them into Charcharadons 2.0, so I tentaitvely propose they fairly regularly return to Imperial Space (say every couple hundred years) to resupply, and perhaps for somewhat more political, venal, or religious reasons.

 

The crux of the article, history or whatever you want to call my ramblings is very much to get it to the point that the Taurans are a mysterious, crusading chapter of the White Scars who are steady, and seem particularly interested in combating Tyranid encroachment. I'm just of the opinion that you need to know why they are the way they are. You need to show, not tell perhaps is a better analogy.

 

As for the four Astartes thing... well, it's hard to explain, but I'll try. Everyone knows the Ultramarines are the poster children of Warhammer 40,000. I'm not as familiar with Heresy history or Scourging history as I should be, but it's clear that they didn't play the pivotal role in the Heresy - they emerge as the most powerful because they are arguably the least involved loyalist legion. Yeah, I know Calth etc. What's clear though is that they have generally been the dominant chapter and legion since the day the Emperor was laid low by Horus. Things change though. Somewhat piggy-backing off of Apologist's excellent blog, I see the Ultramarines at a nadir of influence during this time with the good name of the Imperial Fists and their successors riding high. Not only have they recently reformed their legion to defend Terra, but they are staunch High Lord supporters from what I know of the Nova Terra Interregnum. In other words, they are in favor. However, they took horrendous loses defending Terra and are currently at a nadir of actual strength if not influence when the Taurans are created. Therefore, it is decided that the Taurans will use the seldom utilized White Scars gene seed, BUT they'll be "raised" by Imperial Fist successors. 

 

Now, it's one thing for the chapter command staff to be Crimson Fist, Black Templar, etc. It is quite another for the Apothecarion and the Librarium to be the same. White Scar gene seed is different in myriad ways both major and minor to Imperial Fist and no chapter is going to tell another chapter their gene seed weaknesses. Similarly, the Librarians of White Scars successors are distinctly different to more codex librarians because the White Scars seem to access the warp differently to most. Whether this is cultural, biological, or theological is not something that is known and probably not something anyone would be willing to risk finding out.

 

Whatever the reason, what results is a square peg in a round hole. You've got a chapter that yearns to be free, attacking, roaming the stars and laying low the Emperor's enemies so that they may achieve glory and renown. They are instead raised by strict, monastic "parents" and told to basically garrison a sector of space and defend. The Taurans are BULLS. They charge. They attack. It's literally in their blood. They are not wall builders and they are do not crusade for religious reasons. They crusade because they are born for battle and because they hate their enemies. This is a stepping stone to the idea of "you can't go home again." I brought up earlier. In many ways, I'm telling a coming of age story of super human space mongols in the grim darkness of the 34th Millennium.

 

For your main question, whose side are they on? I see them taking their own side - against the Imperium proper. This obviously benefits Constantium/Nova Terra/The Ur-Council, but it isn't necessarily about them. It's about strongly held beliefs, it's about violated honor, it's about mis-communication, and to an extent, it's about the hubris of youth. Let me explain.

 

 

+++On Imperial Disfunction of the Nova Terra Interregnum Period+++

 

Now I believe I can hear the philosophers protesting that it can only be misery to live in folly, illusion, deception, and ignorance, but it isn't -

it's human.

 

~Desiderius Erasmus, Terran Philosopher

 

To understand the Tauran conflict (Inquisitorial, Ecclesiarchical, and Naval Historians are hesitant to call it a war for a variety of political and religious reasons), you must understand the Nova Terra Interregnum. The Interregnum and the formation of the Imperium Pacificus is not an event but rather a slow drift of  bureaucratic systems stretching across millennia. An outside observer may decide it is an inevitability based on the societal, political, and religious movements of the era. There is little agreement among Ordo Scriptorum historian-purgers as to whether the great Nova Terra time period should be purged or should be preserved. The resultant stack wars and data crusades rage to this day on Terra, Ophelia IV, and even Nova Terra.

 

What is known is that the Imperium became more and more factional and parochial as the High Lords descended into bickering and conflicting proclamation in the run up to the eventual Twin Imperium. The Taurans found themselves as a newly established chapter stationed along the great Trans - Pacificus Warp Current that stretches from far Garrison Hadex all the way to the rimward Segmentum Solar.  They studiously ignored the growing factionalism of around them and set about increasing the glory of Him on Earth.

 

An Astartes chapter is largely free of the insane, byzantine bureaucracy of the Imperium at large. Astartes strike cruisers can reasonably expect to arrive at any port of call and receive reinforcement, resupply, and refit if it is in the capability of the world in question. This is guaranteed by both decree from a host of the highest authorities of the Imperium and from the implicit threat of an angry Astartes chapter at your door denied the services they demand. Many chapters rely on this implicit agreement to keep themselves well supplied with void craft and there is a causal relationship between the availability of high capacity fleet refit yards or forge worlds and Astartes fleet dispositions throughout the Imperium. The Death Spectres are known to value their void craft above almost all other considerations due to the absolute paucity of sufficient fleet refit yards in the Ghoul Stars. The Minotaurs, on the other hand, are suspected of having several refit yards available to their exclusive use on high decree and thus are well supllied with void craft of both capital and escort class.

 

As the Taurans began their tenure of their home planet, _________ ( I need to come up with a name), they found themselves almost immediately drawn into fighting a succession of Ork Freebooter Warbands cruising the Trans-Pacificus Warp Routes in the slowly growing absence of Imperium Pacificus patrol squadrons. A series of running void, astroid, and planetary battles saw the Taurans smash a succession of Ork fleets and drove a variety of Freeboota Clans back to the so-called Gut-Stompa Nebula. 

 

This was a blessing and a curse. It bought the Taurans the gratitude of the surrounding sectors, and established them as one of the principal military protective powers of the region. On the other hand, the shattered Orkish fleets found themselves easy prey for the up and coming Ork Freeboota Warboss Kaptin' Blitzram who, by dint of Orkish logik, was now bigger and stronger than all of the surviving conpeting Kaptins'. When the Orkish fleets next emerged from the Nebula, they came with hundreds of Kruiser analogues. The resultant WAAGH Blitzram smashed into the the spinward Pacificus and savaged several worlds before Pacificus resources could be rallied from Hydraphur. The decades of warfare that followed saw the Taurans become experts in Anti-Orkish void warfare and counter-sieging Orkish attacked worlds. 

 

The bitter lessons of the Blitzram Armada were three-fold. It had become increasingly clear that Pacificus resources were no longer being tithed to the defense of the Imperium at large and were instead being hoarded by individual governors, potentates, and rogues. World after world had established what they considered a strong fleet presence only to have it smashed aside by massive Waaagh! battle groups. It wasn't until Segmentum command forced individual sector lords to give up their fleets did the tide turn.

 

Secondly, the Taurans found their own fleet refit capabilities lacking. The Ork ramships of Waagh Blitzram seemed to relish targeting Astartes ships as "Dey wuz the best fightin' any of the zoggin' boyz had ever had." The Taurans eventually found themselves limping from battle to battle - sometimes engaging an Orkish fleet while Ork boarding teams were still being hunted down in the lower decks of their battle barges and strike cruisers. The Santa Invictus, a strike cruiser usually assigned to the 5th company, fought no less than 3 separate void engagements with an Ork ramship buried in it's starboard side before it could be recalled to __________ for refit. 

 

Lastly, and perhaps most tellingly, the Taurans, Fleet Pacificus, and various local Astra Militarum battlegroups increasingly found themselves isolated without the slow reinforcing waves of resources typical of escalating Imperial threat response. Catachan Jungle Fighters sourced for the defense of the Thebian Marche found themselves instead seconded to the Sector Hadex reserve as the self-proclaimed Sector Overlord Bartaigne sought to carve more power for himself from his neighbors. The Frateris Templar 5th Order, assigned to the same defense, saw itself drawn into the Cardinal Wars of the Saint Florentine Schism. 

 

This failure of the Imperial Cog-Martial was instrumental in shaping the looming Tauran Conflict (Some would say Tauran Heresy although most Scriptorum Dogmatists insist the Tauran actions did not rise to the level of Heresy).. The Cog-Martial, a now anachronistic term used at the time to describe the process by which the Munitorum escalates responses to threats, had left the worlds around the Gut-Stompa woefully undefended.

 

The Taurans, in the proud history of the Astartes, stepped in. Chapter Master Navarrez Martell, originally a Crimson Fist, launched the Taurans into a decades long martial, spiritual, logistical, and naval effort to defend the Imperium. While Battle Companies found themselves on constant patrol and leading counter-invasions against the ramshackle Speek Freak tribes that festered in the wake of Blitzram, reserve companies defended vital worlds and trained Planetary Defense Forces in the defense of their worlds. Slowly, the Taurans turned a sector of space into the hardest nut the Orks of Waagh Blitzram had ever attempted to crack. 

 

When Blitzram crashed into the so-called Martell Wall, the resultant war made waves as far as Nova Terra and Hydraphur. This is not the time or place to recount the war, but it highlights the sheer brilliance and terrifying ferocity of an Astartes Prolonged War. For reasons of propaganda, morale, and religious dogma, Astartes operations are usually depicted as quick actions against a key weakness in enemy lines. The righteous judgment of the Emperor destroys the enemy in a single decisive engagement. Although this is often rooted in truth, the Adeptus Astartes are just as capable of waging long war as they are key strikes.

 

The Tauran Stampede, as it is sometimes called, is the culmination of several decades of training, hit and run raids, recruitment efforts, naval mining operations, decapitation strikes, defenses-in-depth, and sheer Astartes ferocity. An unbiased account would accord the young chapter all the virtues and terrible auras of the Emperor's Angels of Death at their finest. Jaghatai Khan and Rogal Dorn would look favorably upon them in equal measure. Blitzram ran into traps, void ambushes, mine fields, and well disciplined PDF regiments bolstered with Astartes training and strike teams. It was a massacre. The counter attack cleansed four Orkish worlds with significant human populations and actually expanded the borders of the Imperium in the Gut-Stompa Nebula. Although the war would cost the Taurans dearly and necessitate a desperate search for increased resources, it is one of the few unequivocal victories of the Interregnum era.

 

As the sectors suffering under the predation of WAAAGH Blitzram were finally liberated, several world became beholden to the Tauran Astartes for their defense and for their salvation. Thus, the Empor's Angels of Death slowly supplanted the Imperial Cult or the Imperial bureaucracy as the principle object of their veneration. The Taurans could now count on 6 other systems aside from their own to supply them with resources according to their need and according  ability. 

 

The Tauran fleet was another matter. Although their capital losses had be slight during the war, the Taurans were almost bereft of escorts and most of their capital class vessels were little more than floating wrecks. It was projected that Santa Invictus, Don de Imperator, and The Khan Unbowed would all spend decades, if not centuries in Tauran refit yards before they would once again be able to ferry their terrible cargo to distant battlefieds.

 

 

Then the Ur-Council declared independence.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

EDIT: phew, didn't mean for that to be this long, but I'll let it stand. Zhiv, I'll address your thoughts tomorrow. Thanks!

 

- Vae Victis

[Commissar Molotov]

I'm not a fan of "White Scars successor raised by Imperial Fists" - it's a wrinkle that doesn't add a lot and instead complicates things. There's also still the fact that we just don't know how new Chapters of the Astartes are created in their initial years - and so this is something that's best glossed over and not referred to directly. 

 

I would say that a useful method to move forward would be to take the categories from the first post and try to add some depth to each of them, so we can establish a broad consensus from the participants. 

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Sure. It’s easy enough to drop it. They are White Scars successors. My big thing is trying to establish a unique way for them to be divorced from their home world without resorting to the cliqued “Inqusition took it/aliens overran it.

 

My head cannon has them going down a path similar to the Astral Claws, but instead of going to war when the other Astartes intervene, they simply burn their fortress monastery and set out to prove themselves as the MOST loyal or whatever. Thousands of years mellow them out to what we have today - a chapter that is steady and self assured instead of hot headed and insecure, but they return to their former home world and dump their trophies there as proof of their deeds. An eternal questing knight returning with his prize to a kingdom that has long since forgotten about him

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm not a fan of "White Scars successor raised by Imperial Fists" - it's a wrinkle that doesn't add a lot and instead complicates things. There's also still the fact that we just don't know how new Chapters of the Astartes are created in their initial years - and so this is something that's best glossed over and not referred to directly. 

 

I would say that a useful method to move forward would be to take the categories from the first post and try to add some depth to each of them, so we can establish a broad consensus from the participants. 

 

 

Sure. It’s easy enough to drop it. They are White Scars successors. My big thing is trying to establish a unique way for them to be divorced from their home world without resorting to the cliqued “Inqusition took it/aliens overran it.

 

My head cannon has them going down a path similar to the Astral Claws, but instead of going to war when the other Astartes intervene, they simply burn their fortress monastery and set out to prove themselves as the MOST loyal or whatever. Thousands of years mellow them out to what we have today - a chapter that is steady and self assured instead of hot headed and insecure, but they return to their former home world and dump their trophies there as proof of their deeds. An eternal questing knight returning with his prize to a kingdom that has long since forgotten about him

 

Sorry for my absence..... I've been away on business and out of contact with my laptop, but I've been following your posts on my phone..... you've clearly put a lot of thought into this.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to drop the idea of the initial cadre of the chapter being drawn from multiple chapters. The idea of melding chapter traditions and skill sets is not without precedence. In Chris Wraight's audio drama, Grey Talon  Bion Henricos of the Iron Hands enthusiastically introduces the idea of melding Iron Hands and White Scars tactical doctrines to Hibou Khan of the White Scars. Perhaps the founders of the Tauran saw advantages in melding the doctrines of the Imperial Fist successors with that of the White Scars. I think this would make sense given the chapter structure we discussed earlier and the heavier feel yet fast and flexible "stampede" doctrine of the Tauran. It could also be used to further explain the knightly vs tribal trappings and traditions of the different Tauran companies.

 

Multiple chapter mentors molding the spirited genetic stock of the White Scars seems a rather unique idea and not as troublesome and messy as it might initially sound

 

Your ideas on how and why the Tauran leave their homeworld seems somewhat divergent from our original thoughts on the subject, but I'm starting to warm to them Brother Woe

[Commissar Molotov]

From my understanding, Grey Talon is also set during the Heresy - though I haven't read it, your reference has one marine saying that it would be great if two Legions could meld. But that's what the Codex Astartes did. Roboute Guilliman, as well as codifying the structures of a Chapter, presented doctrines taken from many different forces and strategists (including the eventual traitor legions.) 

 

If this project is supposed to be a "best practice" - showing potential Liberites how a Chapter can be created - then it's important to distinguish the difference between exploring the grey areas of the 40k universe and inventing things wholesale. Obviously your individual line between those two concepts will be up to you, but I don't think it's necessary to explore in painstaking detail the founding cadre of the Chapter. To me, it doesn't matter who the first Chapter Master of the Taurans was - they should have the space over 8 millennia to grow and change - and it just comes across as having your cake and eating it. 

 

White Scars marines do not need an Imperial Fist mentor in order to act like Imperial Fists. One of the aspects we explored from the start of the Taurans was the concept of the "noble savage" - attempting to restrain a wild side. The White Scars are also characterised as utilising poetry and the like, cultured and noble. 

 

I personally am a fan of using the Nova Terra Interregnum to mark a turning point in the Taurans. Before that, they might have been headstrong, fierce and impetuous. But they are stung by the Imperium, a cruel and callous Imperium that perhaps is nothing like the Imperium they imagined. Stung, they withdraw and they've never quite been the same again. They complete their due penitence and are entitled to be welcomed back with open arms - but they never choose to be. They remain diffident and aloof, trusting in themselves. 

 

Unlike the Mantis Warriors, who were forced to forfeit their homeworlds, I still see the Taurans as holding onto their world, but having a similarly aloof and strange relationship with it (see earlier in the thread for my 'elephant graveyard' discussions.) 

 

The idea of the "forgotten knight" is an interesting one, though perhaps ameliorated by the fact that we know the Taurans have contributed to the Deathwatch - I think rather than the Imperium forgetting about the Taurans, it's more a case of the Taurans not caring about the Imperium's regard anymore. This is an opportunity to show that the Space Marines can be cold and distant without automatically falling into "renegades" or (perhaps worse) "renegades who fight for Humanity but not the Imperium." - it gives us an opportunity to explore the otherness of the Astartes. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Yes, Grey Talon takes place during the Horus Heresy and that's about all you got right about that. My point was simply that there is precedence within established literature for the idea and tolerance for melding fighting doctrine from vastly different groups. Also, the Codex Astartes is a overarching treatise on Astartes warfare..... tactics, strategies, structures, logistics, scenarios, etc. It is not about melding legions. I agree on exploring the gray areas of the 40K universe and I don't see any "inventing things wholesale" here. I don't think the founding points made by Brother Woe was "painstaking" in detail. It was just a point. Some chapters have better records than some and even fragmentary records will contain detailed information. "Having your cake and eating it"...…. I'm not even sure where that fits. I understand that you have strong opinions on where this should go, and I respect that. However, oversimplification and misrepresentation tinged with sarcasm do not make for good arguments against other ideas.

 

Well...… having gotten that out of the way..... Commissar Molototv, I think you are right about using the Nova Terra Interregnum to mark a turning point for the Tauran. This is the perfect setting for it. Your description of the how the Tauran are treated by the Imperium and their reaction I think is perfect.

 

If the Tauran are to keep their homeworld (even if only to voluntarily abandon it at a later date) the nature or their penitence and how they arrive at it needs to be handled carefully. It seems to me that the Tauran's transgressions are being viewed relatively mildly all things considered. Often, penitent crusades conducted by Astartes chapters are quite severe things..... sometimes little more than drawn out death sentences. The powers that be within the Imperium do not take lightly to having their authorities crossed. The Celestial Lions chapter was virtually assassinated by elements of the Inquisition for simply protesting a particular action. Powers arrayed against the Tauran will be ruthless and capricious...… should make for interesting story telling

 

Brother Woe, given the themes and information that has generally been agreed upon, I would be very interested in seeing what you can do with it. I regret not being able to do more than comment and pitch a few ideas, but I'm afraid I am chained to real world problems that are weighing particularly heavy at the moment. I will however, cheerfully do what I can to help. In spite of what I've said, please don't hesitate to ask if you have a question are need help with anything..... the worst that can happen is I say "sorry.... I can't right now" I'll try not to say that too often.

 

Some ideas for the Tauran homeworld……… Agrarian cultures mostly with a medieval cultural and technological level. They recruit from both the Iberian knightly orders and the Maasai plains warriors. These may be totally different and isolated cultures in different parts of the world, or one may be absorbed into the civilization of the other, or the two may be in conflict. I'm using the terms Maasai and Iberian simply to convey an idea for these two warrior cultures. We can and should look at different names. Perhaps the man children recruited by the Tauran are resistant to the usual amnesia conditioning to limit or eliminate childhood memories and retain a great deal and identify very strongly with their native cultures. This would necessitate the chapter integrating some of these cultural traditions into the chapter culture and would go some way to explain the chapter's strong spiritual beliefs and divergent company traditions.

 

By the time of the Nova Terra Interregnum, the Tauran are a well established but still young chapter.

 

FIY..... the Monroe Doctrine was established in the early 19th century (specifically 1823) not the 20th century. It is still actively recognized though

[Commissar Molotov]

Yes, Grey Talon takes place during the Horus Heresy and that's about all you got right about that. My point was simply that there is precedence within established literature for the idea and tolerance for melding fighting doctrine from vastly different groups. Also, the Codex Astartes is a overarching treatise on Astartes warfare..... tactics, strategies, structures, logistics, scenarios, etc. It is not about melding legions. I agree on exploring the gray areas of the 40K universe and I don't see any "inventing things wholesale" here. I don't think the founding points made by Brother Woe was "painstaking" in detail. It was just a point. Some chapters have better records than some and even fragmentary records will contain detailed information. "Having your cake and eating it"...…. I'm not even sure where that fits. I understand that you have strong opinions on where this should go, and I respect that. However, oversimplification and misrepresentation tinged with sarcasm do not make for good arguments against other ideas.

 

 

I apologise if you think anything I've said comes across as sarcastic, as that's not my intention. 

 

I do think there is a distinction between melding fighting doctrines, as you say, and marines from one legion being assigned to shape the creation of another chapter of a different bloodline (especially when considering the incredible pride marines feel about their gene-fathers.) The only similar thing within the canon to my knowledge is the example of the Carmine Blades, who were mistakenly categorised as an Ultramarines successor rather than a Blood Angels successor. 

 

My point regarding the Heresy is that we have several mentions of the Legions working on concert, or having a great regard for marines in the other legions - one that springs to mind would be the relationship between Argal Tal and Khârn. But the Chapters are, I think, a little more independent. However, I will stick by my point that Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex including different tactics in order to afford Space Marine commanders the ability to utilise a range of tactics to achieve their goal. That some Chapters have become hidebound and limited is a different issue entirely, and speaks to the close-minded nature of the Imperium as events move along. 

 

Regarding your point about the Penitence Crusade - the primary examples I can think of are the Mantis Warriors (who forfeited their homeworld) and the Lamenters, who were listed as undertaking a 100-year crusade. Given the lifespan of Marines, I don't see that as the most serious punishment they could have received. To my knowledge, the Celestial Lions were never openly punished - instead they were secretly destroyed through a series of convenient warp accidents and uncannily accurate "Ork snipers." 

 

 

One of my thoughts is that the Tauran should recruit across the Imperium as they continue their nomadic path across the Imperium. It allows us to focus on a Chapter theme as opposed to the theme of one world - and potentially even to emphasise their distorted, distant and difficult relationship to the citizenry of the Imperium as a whole. 

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Okay, thanks for the feedback to everyone!

 

There's no direct need to have the Taurans be founded by Imperial Fists. I try to over explain things here in this thread so that it can be appropriately redacted, obscured or lost for the eventual final product. Would it be acceptable for the more cryptic paragraph on Tauran founding? Perhaps something that does not speak to its training cadre, but merely notes they are a chapter seemingly riven by "ill-humours" and the like. Perhaps something like this.

 

"Of the Tauran founding, only the basics are known. The Taurans' first known appearance comes to us via Inquisitor Pellias the Younger's survey of Astartes Chapters at the close of M34. Although the primary source has long since been lost, the "Commentaries" penned by his pupil and eventual successor, Lord Inquisitor Hadrax, confirms their White Scars gene seed succession and their eventual posting to the __________ sector of Segmentum Pacificus. The Lord Pellias, famously terse, is said to have judged the Taurans 'prideful, honour obsessed, and eager to see their legacy regarded as the equal or superior to the original legions," - a veritable deluge of words from an Inquisitor who described the entirety of the Crimson Fists' history as "admirable."

 

Although no definitive proof exists, the Taurans are thought to have been a codex compliant chapter at their outset based upon the structure of Hadrax's "Commentaries" and a survivng after action report of a Caballero - Capitán Martell detailing requisition and resupply needs of for the Tauran 3rd company which seems to imply a broadly Codex-approved structure. 

 

I feel this gets across the idea without coming right out and saying it. There's flavor text to draw the reader in and allow them to understand that this is an incomplete assessment based on flawed sources. It lays an unremarkable founding that isn't even mentioned while also leaving little room. This chapter basically has to be founded somewhere in the 3-5th founding in order to be included in the M34 survey since we're pretty sure they aren't a Primogenitor chapter.

 

As for the Nova Terra Interregnum, well, one of the things I've been trying to get across in my fluff is that it's a YOUNG chapter. They are so concerned with honour, and smiting the Xenos, and upholding the traditions of their heroes (the legions of old) that maybe they get a bit... carried away.  Like my older story above, the Taurans become a major player in the sector they are assigned to and as a young, almost teenage like chapter, they decide to do something a little bit rebellious - they take a navy refit yard. They need it - their ships are trashed after extended void warfare. In their minds, they deserve it - they just saved the sector and basically did it with no support aside from the worlds they pulled up by the metaphorical boot-straps. 

 

The Nova Terra sees them trying to hold on to what they see as their core interests. Why should petty lords squabbling over politics prevent us, The Tauran Astartes, from carrying out our sacred duties. No, it's better that we have these worlds and govern them and create fine armies and restock our navies. The key difference is that they do it out of mis-placed loyalty. They are not seceding from the Imperium, they are getting carried away and going above their station in trying to protect it. 

 

It's all put to the test when the Ecclesiarchy and the Frateris Templar eventually invade the Pacificus anyway. It might be interesting to have a famous Imperial saint or Saint-Martial or General portrayed as the villain in the Tauran mythology. As an aggressive Astartes chapter, they again go too far - they start producing or capturing Imperial Navy ships, they start training and arming PDF regiments for use in battle, and they take the battle to this antagonist who attacked them first. Basically, they can claim self defense against all charges of heresy/betrayal. 

 

That's basically where I'm going with them. The ramifications of that time period are a mystery. I see them forced to give up control of their world, but still retain recruiting rights.

 

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I see the IA article stuff we have on page 1 as their current state in M42. The real story happens after the Nova Terra Interregnum and before current day. I see a crusading chapter, bitter, defeated, but determined to prove the righteousness of their cause going out to conquer the universe - not unlike the Conquistadors of the 15th and 16th century. I see the Massai influence come into play as a consequence of their "colonization" after leaving their homeworlds. Perhaps it is the induction of fresh blood and fresh culture that mellows them out and allows them to move beyond the Interregnum.

[Woe to the Vanquished]

As an aside, and probably more of a question for chapters in general, struck me earlier this evening. When a chapter receives a huge number of Primaris marines in either reinforcements or in a rebuilding effort, how does that change the nature of a chapter. The Scythes, for instance, are almost extinct then receive something like 900 Primaris marines. I wonder how such an event would affect a chapter. How willing would the Primaris be to simply fall in line with chapter traditions and cults?

[Brother Lunkhead]

As an aside, and probably more of a question for chapters in general, struck me earlier this evening. When a chapter receives a huge number of Primaris marines in either reinforcements or in a rebuilding effort, how does that change the nature of a chapter. The Scythes, for instance, are almost extinct then receive something like 900 Primaris marines. I wonder how such an event would affect a chapter. How willing would the Primaris be to simply fall in line with chapter traditions and cults?

 

I'm thinking that most of the existing Primaris were given to first founding chapters and the technology for creating them was given to most everyone else (or at least those who would accept it along with the terms from the Mechanicum). I think the Tauran are probably too far down the food chain to actually receive Primaris marines. I suspect they have full control in creating their own, so I don't think it would be an issue.

 

The biggest issue will be how to integrate them into the chapter. Are they given their own company?....Are they placed in the reserve companies?....Are they integrated directly into existing companies to replace casualties?......a combination?

[Felix Antipodes]

Unless there are strings attached by RG or the AdMech wrt their use, what is to stop the Taurans - or anyone else - from just calling/using them in a traditional role?

These 10 intercessors are now the new 3rd Tactical Squad, 2nd Company, etc.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Unless there are strings attached by RG or the AdMech wrt their use, what is to stop the Taurans - or anyone else - from just calling/using them in a traditional role?

These 10 intercessors are now the new 3rd Tactical Squad, 2nd Company, etc.

 

A very good point Brother Felix. The Tauran should be able to use them as they see fit..... unfortunately, right now, until GW expands the range both in formation and equipment loadout (especially equipment loadout) Primaris are still somewhat limited, but still very useful. 

 

I currently see advantages in using the Primaris as a flexible force multiplier in problem zones of combat operations. I think currently this would be best executed by assigning several squads of Primaris to each of the reserve companies. Larger zones of operations might benefit from larger combined arms formations of Primaris that a demi-company or even a whole company of Primaris would provide. I see schedule of Primaris deployment as follows: reserve companies, then one independent company, and finally integration into established companies based on attrition replacement.

 

I guess ultimately it boils down to where we decide we are at in the Tauran timeline and Primaris introduction into the chapter

 

 

Okay, thanks for the feedback to everyone!

 

There's no direct need to have the Taurans be founded by Imperial Fists. I try to over explain things here in this thread so that it can be appropriately redacted, obscured or lost for the eventual final product. Would it be acceptable for the more cryptic paragraph on Tauran founding? Perhaps something that does not speak to its training cadre, but merely notes they are a chapter seemingly riven by "ill-humours" and the like. Perhaps something like this.

 

"Of the Tauran founding, only the basics are known. The Taurans' first known appearance comes to us via Inquisitor Pellias the Younger's survey of Astartes Chapters at the close of M34. Although the primary source has long since been lost, the "Commentaries" penned by his pupil and eventual successor, Lord Inquisitor Hadrax, confirms their White Scars gene seed succession and their eventual posting to the __________ sector of Segmentum Pacificus. The Lord Pellias, famously terse, is said to have judged the Taurans 'prideful, honour obsessed, and eager to see their legacy regarded as the equal or superior to the original legions," - a veritable deluge of words from an Inquisitor who described the entirety of the Crimson Fists' history as "admirable."

 

Although no definitive proof exists, the Taurans are thought to have been a codex compliant chapter at their outset based upon the structure of Hadrax's "Commentaries" and a survivng after action report of a Caballero - Capitán Martell detailing requisition and resupply needs of for the Tauran 3rd company which seems to imply a broadly Codex-approved structure. 

 

I feel this gets across the idea without coming right out and saying it. There's flavor text to draw the reader in and allow them to understand that this is an incomplete assessment based on flawed sources. It lays an unremarkable founding that isn't even mentioned while also leaving little room. This chapter basically has to be founded somewhere in the 3-5th founding in order to be included in the M34 survey since we're pretty sure they aren't a Primogenitor chapter.

 

As for the Nova Terra Interregnum, well, one of the things I've been trying to get across in my fluff is that it's a YOUNG chapter. They are so concerned with honour, and smiting the Xenos, and upholding the traditions of their heroes (the legions of old) that maybe they get a bit... carried away.  Like my older story above, the Taurans become a major player in the sector they are assigned to and as a young, almost teenage like chapter, they decide to do something a little bit rebellious - they take a navy refit yard. They need it - their ships are trashed after extended void warfare. In their minds, they deserve it - they just saved the sector and basically did it with no support aside from the worlds they pulled up by the metaphorical boot-straps. 

 

The Nova Terra sees them trying to hold on to what they see as their core interests. Why should petty lords squabbling over politics prevent us, The Tauran Astartes, from carrying out our sacred duties. No, it's better that we have these worlds and govern them and create fine armies and restock our navies. The key difference is that they do it out of mis-placed loyalty. They are not seceding from the Imperium, they are getting carried away and going above their station in trying to protect it. 

 

It's all put to the test when the Ecclesiarchy and the Frateris Templar eventually invade the Pacificus anyway. It might be interesting to have a famous Imperial saint or Saint-Martial or General portrayed as the villain in the Tauran mythology. As an aggressive Astartes chapter, they again go too far - they start producing or capturing Imperial Navy ships, they start training and arming PDF regiments for use in battle, and they take the battle to this antagonist who attacked them first. Basically, they can claim self defense against all charges of heresy/betrayal. 

 

That's basically where I'm going with them. The ramifications of that time period are a mystery. I see them forced to give up control of their world, but still retain recruiting rights.

 

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I see the IA article stuff we have on page 1 as their current state in M42. The real story happens after the Nova Terra Interregnum and before current day. I see a crusading chapter, bitter, defeated, but determined to prove the righteousness of their cause going out to conquer the universe - not unlike the Conquistadors of the 15th and 16th century. I see the Massai influence come into play as a consequence of their "colonization" after leaving their homeworlds. Perhaps it is the induction of fresh blood and fresh culture that mellows them out and allows them to move beyond the Interregnum.

 

Brother Woe, I generally really like what you are doing here. For brevity's sake I'll just point out some things I see as problem areas (mostly just my opinion).

 

The Lord Pellias, famously terse, is said to have judged the Taurans 'prideful, honour obsessed, and eager to see their legacy regarded as the equal or superior to the original legions," -

 

This seems to apply to about 90 percent plus of all Space Marine chapters and I don't think it adds anything interesting to the Tauran lore. I suggest going back to a variation on your original idea of the founding command staff being a chapter mix.... I suggest a mixture of White Scars and Crimson Fist. No real detail needs to be put into this, just a scrap of documentation to tantalize. In spite of Brother Molotov's misgivings, I think this adds a bit of spice and food for speculation and future stories. I think that's a good thing and it was a good idea on your part. This is not a idea simply plucked out of the ether,there is precedence for this and I will speak to this further down in this post.

 

I see the Massai influence come into play as a consequence of their "colonization" after leaving their homeworlds. Perhaps it is the induction of fresh blood and fresh culture that mellows them out and allows them to move beyond the Interregnum.

 

I think most of the Tauran culture and traditions are going to be forged (including the Iberian and Maasi like traditions) during the time where they are headquartered and recruiting on their initial homeworld. This is the time where it would be most advantageous to adopt cultural traditions and beliefs that the Tauran admire and make it their own. Once they are fleet based and recruiting across the Imperium this practice is less likely and could prove problematic to chapter cohesion and continuity.

 

All else I really like 

 

 

 

 

Yes, Grey Talon takes place during the Horus Heresy and that's about all you got right about that. My point was simply that there is precedence within established literature for the idea and tolerance for melding fighting doctrine from vastly different groups. Also, the Codex Astartes is a overarching treatise on Astartes warfare..... tactics, strategies, structures, logistics, scenarios, etc. It is not about melding legions. I agree on exploring the gray areas of the 40K universe and I don't see any "inventing things wholesale" here. I don't think the founding points made by Brother Woe was "painstaking" in detail. It was just a point. Some chapters have better records than some and even fragmentary records will contain detailed information. "Having your cake and eating it"...…. I'm not even sure where that fits. I understand that you have strong opinions on where this should go, and I respect that. However, oversimplification and misrepresentation tinged with sarcasm do not make for good arguments against other ideas.

 

 

I apologise if you think anything I've said comes across as sarcastic, as that's not my intention. 

 

I do think there is a distinction between melding fighting doctrines, as you say, and marines from one legion being assigned to shape the creation of another chapter of a different bloodline (especially when considering the incredible pride marines feel about their gene-fathers.) The only similar thing within the canon to my knowledge is the example of the Carmine Blades, who were mistakenly categorised as an Ultramarines successor rather than a Blood Angels successor. 

 

My point regarding the Heresy is that we have several mentions of the Legions working on concert, or having a great regard for marines in the other legions - one that springs to mind would be the relationship between Argal Tal and Khârn. But the Chapters are, I think, a little more independent. However, I will stick by my point that Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex including different tactics in order to afford Space Marine commanders the ability to utilise a range of tactics to achieve their goal. That some Chapters have become hidebound and limited is a different issue entirely, and speaks to the close-minded nature of the Imperium as events move along. 

 

Regarding your point about the Penitence Crusade - the primary examples I can think of are the Mantis Warriors (who forfeited their homeworld) and the Lamenters, who were listed as undertaking a 100-year crusade. Given the lifespan of Marines, I don't see that as the most serious punishment they could have received. To my knowledge, the Celestial Lions were never openly punished - instead they were secretly destroyed through a series of convenient warp accidents and uncannily accurate "Ork snipers." 

 

 

One of my thoughts is that the Tauran should recruit across the Imperium as they continue their nomadic path across the Imperium. It allows us to focus on a Chapter theme as opposed to the theme of one world - and potentially even to emphasise their distorted, distant and difficult relationship to the citizenry of the Imperium as a whole. 

 

 

Brother Molotov, I accept your apology. To paraphrase Churchill when describing British and American relations, we seem to be two people separated by a common language. Hopefully we can move past these unfortunately miscommunications.

 

Just to recap.....

 

However, I will stick by my point that Roboute Guilliman wrote the Codex including different tactics in order to afford Space Marine commanders the ability to utilise a range of tactics to achieve their goal.

 

Actually, I think this is closer to my point. However we do seem to be in agreement on this and that's good 

 

Regarding your point about the Penitence Crusade - the primary examples I can think of are the Mantis Warriors (who forfeited their homeworld) and the Lamenters, who were listed as undertaking a 100-year crusade. Given the lifespan of Marines, I don't see that as the most serious punishment they could have received.

 

I was speaking to how severe a test a Penitent Crusade can be on a chapter (often they are neither allowed to recruit or resupply and repair using Imperial facilities which can lead to critical or even fatal attrition in men and equipment) not to the life span of the Astartes. Of coarse this is not the most severe sanction (I never said that), they could have been disbanded or destroyed outright.

 

To my knowledge, the Celestial Lions were never openly punished - instead they were secretly destroyed through a series of convenient warp accidents and uncannily accurate "Ork snipers." 

 

Yes, they were for all practical purposes "assassinated".

 

My point regarding the Heresy is that we have several mentions of the Legions working on concert, or having a great regard for marines in the other legions - one that springs to mind would be the relationship between Argal Tal and Khârn. But the Chapters are, I think, a little more independent.

 

Terran recruits were often trained by cadres from different legions and assigned to a legion based on manpower needs. This is documented in Chris Wraight's Scars. He speaks specifically of a recruit trained by a cadre from the Luna Wolves and assigned to the White Scars. 

 

I think I have made a good enough case for a mixed cadre of White Scars and Crimson Fist involved in training and founding the Tauran. I propose a compromise. No detail narrative about the founding needs to be made ( I agree that this should generally be left to the fog of the past), but a scrap of record speaking to this would give the  founding a different spice and adds food for future speculation and stories. Major involvement of the Tauran in the Nova Terra Interregnum is as made up as it comes and we don't have a problem with this. So let's add a scrap of intriguing info to the Tauran legacy and move on.

 

 

One of my thoughts is that the Tauran should recruit across the Imperium as they continue their nomadic path across the Imperium. It allows us to focus on a Chapter theme as opposed to the theme of one world - and potentially even to emphasise their distorted, distant and difficult relationship to the citizenry of the Imperium as a whole. 

 

Totally agree with this point 

[Zhiv]

Going to point out that fluff sorta contradicts mixed training cadre as the gene seed harvested from the cadre members cannot be used to transplant the neophytes whose organs hail from White Scar stock.  Gene seed is (as far as fluff goes) tied to the organs they control and while the organs are the same, the way the seed interacts with them is not. E.g. Imperial Fists have lost the function of several organs over the years.  Of course the chapter could just toss the gene seed of the trainers from Crimson Fists, but that would be kinda waste...

As noted, not dwelling too much on this might serve the story the best. Imperial Records are what they are.

 

As for the other bits, I like the idea of penitent crusade, self-imposed or not. That adds a flaw to the chapter and as we known from Blood Angels and Dark Angels, it is often the flaws that best define what we love. 

 

I also like having troubled relationship with the Imperium and recruiting from multiple worlds. All space marines are heroes made flesh, but not all heroes are heroes we need. 

 

Seeing this hasn't been covered in much detail, do you guys see Taurans as noblebright (Ultramarines, Salamanders) or as grimdark (Marines Malevolent, Mortefactors)?  We have covered their founding and their existence and their downfall.  We have discussed their ferocity-  or we did at some point! Haven't' seen that mentioned in a while. 

 

Having failed the Empire (?) I could see the Taurans being very antagonistic to whomever they see enemies of the Empire or failing the Emperor.  So, more on the grim side of the universe...

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Zhiv…… I thought about the gene stock incompatibility. CF contingent would have been a very small portion of the initial command/training cadre, present more to ensure that certain directives and courses of training were properly observed as directed in the founding charter. When these cadre members died in due course of their duty, their gene seed would be returned to the Crimson Fists. I don't think this issue needs to be explored in detail as this would simply be an interesting artifact from the Tauran founding. However, if you wish to explore this further I'm more than happy to entertain a discussion over it.

 

Yes, I see them more on the grim side as well. I liked the idea of the Tauran returning to their chapter world at the end of their penitent crusade just to burn down their fortress monastery and return to the stars. Still having "spiritual" ties to this world, they return every so many decades to enact their "elephant's grave yard" ritual of returning their dead for burial and laying down trophies from their campaigns.

 

I also like the idea of trouble with the Imperium. I see them as wary of Imperial machinations after being "burned" during the events of the Nova Terra Interregnum. They are aloof but still loyal to the Empire. They crusade and campaign as they see fit, seldom forming alliances or taking direction from "other" authorities.

 

I'm a bit short on time, so I'll continue this tomorrow......

[Zhiv]

Greetings.  It's a long haul for few organs, but sillier things have been done, I have to admit. I also agree that if and if we are going to stick to that, it should be explained - what happened to their founding chapter that they could or would not provide ALL of the initial cadre.  This could also potentially create ties and debts of honor that the chapter still carries.  It's the 'hawk principle again'.  If it is mentioned, it ought to matter - why else bring it up?

 

Here I thought they torched their fortress monastery before heading to their penitent crusade. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust - leaving no attachments to this world.  Both work and both work with the elephant's graveyard, with the marines returning to leave trophies - or tokens of loyalty. Maybe entering a such sanctum is privilege or maybe all the neophytes who became full marines are made to walk through the myriad relics, with chaplains and librarians reciting the chapter's history?

 

Speaking of things, how would religious cannibalism feel on such a chapter? Since they claim trophies, would they also claim the flesh and eat it to know their foes as per the organ that allows that?