CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Zhiv]

I like the idea of a crusading chapter with a homeworld - it would avoid the "too close to black templars" problem for one thing. However, it may be a good idea to stay away from the "lost homeworld" trope, as the crimson fists lost their first homeworld if memory serves. Abandoning it though could be interesting, and the question of why they would abandon it is perhaps even more interesting - this could even be left open as a mysterious secret of the early days of the chapter?

 

@molotov: are you suggesting that the whole chapter fortress be a kind of trophy Hall? And that it is completely abandoned most of the time? That sounds metal!

 

Imperium does not really abandon worlds - they are simply too valuable.  So question is, was the planet lost (warp storms are silly trope) or did it became uninhabitable for some reason.  If the planet became uninhabitable, what happened? Nuclear war? Demonic incursion? Necron tombworld?  It may be that explaining WHY they abandoned it would be more a headache than just leaving it 'unknown'.  

 

Speaking of which, maybe we could write this index astartes as inquisitorial report? With a voice of someone who doesn't know everything and might have their own agendas?  Or does that get too wacky?

[Black Cohort]

Just because the marines abandon it, does not mean it is no longer part of the Imperium.  Maybe the inhabitants were no longer compatible with the geneseed?

[Commissar Molotov]

Thanks for the feedback, guys. Really appreciate your thoughts. 

 

Thorn - my idea was that the Fortress-Monastery is entirely abandoned, and has been for potentially thousands of years. The Taurans return to pay tribute, perhaps to atone for something, perhaps to prove their prowess and dedication to the Imperium. I think we can leave it open for a while. I think we have an interesting counterplay with a Chapter trying to work out their relationship with their forebears. 

 

I think it's interesting to see some people pointing out too much of a correlation with the Black Templars. The Templars have been on their "eternal crusade" but we can accomplish something very similar by exploring the idea of "nomads", moving relentlessly ever onward. It's a similar concept, with a different layer over the top. 

 

We need to consider what the Taurans might have done in order to be sentenced to their penitence crusade. There's a long spectrum from causing the destruction of their homeworld (not my favoured approach) through to some sort of accidental or deliberate dereliction of duty. My thoughts are that the Taurans would have completed their crusade handily, but that this led to them becoming markedly more insular and withdrawn from the Imperium as a whole. In that regard, their "crime" could be something small in the grand scheme of things. 

[Dizzyeye01]

Perhaps due to the whole chapter being drawn away to fight in a campaign/multiple campaigns that it left the homeworld unprepared for an attack is the reasoning behind the penitent crusade. To them, they feel like they failed their people and so turned the fortress monastery into a memorial to remember their failure. This leads them to go onto their nomadic nature, not allowing themselves to settle for fear of repeating the mistakes of the past. Its then also not tied to some outside force pushing on this shame which does seem to pop up a lot in sone peoples' IA.

[Zhiv]

Perhaps due to the whole chapter being drawn away to fight in a campaign/multiple campaigns that it left the homeworld unprepared for an attack is the reasoning behind the penitent crusade. To them, they feel like they failed their people and so turned the fortress monastery into a memorial to remember their failure. This leads them to go onto their nomadic nature, not allowing themselves to settle for fear of repeating the mistakes of the past. Its then also not tied to some outside force pushing on this shame which does seem to pop up a lot in sone peoples' IA.

 

I would be fine with this, but is plays with the 'lost homeworld' trope the Crimson Fists are working with.  I mean, they eventually reclaimed theirs but the parallels are there.  They could also be on a penitent crusade because they failed to do something for someone else? Maybe they failed to save an important world, or maybe their mistake led to destruction of innocents? 

[Dizzyeye01]

 

Perhaps due to the whole chapter being drawn away to fight in a campaign/multiple campaigns that it left the homeworld unprepared for an attack is the reasoning behind the penitent crusade. To them, they feel like they failed their people and so turned the fortress monastery into a memorial to remember their failure. This leads them to go onto their nomadic nature, not allowing themselves to settle for fear of repeating the mistakes of the past. Its then also not tied to some outside force pushing on this shame which does seem to pop up a lot in sone peoples' IA.

 

 

I would be fine with this, but is plays with the 'lost homeworld' trope the Crimson Fists are working with.  I mean, they eventually reclaimed theirs but the parallels are there.  They could also be on a penitent crusade because they failed to do something for someone else? Maybe they failed to save an important world, or maybe their mistake led to destruction of innocents?

I see where you're coming from however let me put this onto a different perspective. True, there are similarities as to the homeworlds being lost however the important part is -how- they react to being brought on their knees. The Crimson Fists held their ground and rebuilt from the ground up with what remains.

 

If we're to go with this idea when what does it say about the Taurens? They could've rebuilt, strenghtened their walls and sailed out into the warp to wage war once more. Yet they couldn't. Being scattered across space as they were, what could they have done? It brings out a contradiction of sorts where they couldn't protect their own world and yet if they had held back some forces to protect their own world then others would have suffered for what could be described as inaction. Inaction can lead to doubt and doubt could lead to heresy. In short, the event could have opened up how they could fail their duty to the Imperium and so they left their homeworld broken as a reminder of their shame and why the penitent crusade happened.

[Commissar Molotov]

The only issue with this, as I see it, is that if their "crime" is endangering their homeworld, to then abandon their homeworld seems contradictory. Of course you can day that by stationing themselves anywhere they bring risk to their people, but that thought process doesn't feel very 40k, to me. Edited November 6, 2017 by Commissar Molotov

[ToyShip]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to look at existing chapters who have embarked on penitent crusades and go from there? We have the Mantis Warriors, Lamenters, and Executioners seceeding from the Imperium during the Badab War , and they all had Penitent Crusades imposed on them, which in fairness is probably pretty lenient given the circumstances. The other one I can think of off of the top of my head is the Relictors (Formerly the Fire Claws IIRC?). And we all know how that turned out.

 

Perhaps we could use this?

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Nova_Terra_Interregnum

 

Basically have the Tauran on the side of the Ur-Council for one reason or another. We could really play up the stubborn idea here, with them blindly following the Ecclesiarchy until the bitter end of the civil war, where they finally give in after their homeworld is blockaded and bombarded by a coalition of Astartes forces and the Inquisition. Might be an interesting thing to make them ultra-religious in their early years, but the failed civil war makes them go back to the "old ways" of seeing the Emperor as not a god, but a man.

[Zhiv]

Plot line with Ur-Council might have some potential. Maybe their home world was confiscated by the Imperium and because of that, they became nomadic and rarely seen? Or maybe the world was lost-lost during the conflict. 

 

Also @mods, I am not sure if this is hasty but could we have a vote about the progenitor chapter / geneseed to let us start figuring out how their founders would have impacted the young Taurans?  Ideas have been tossed around with IF and WS getting most support, but few voices have mentioned IF and DA as well.  Also, the progenitor could have been later founding chapter

[Commissar Molotov]

Whilst I requested that the mods put up a poll for our Chapter, I don't think it's necessarily productive that we have a poll for gene-seed. I'd rather people post thoughtful reasonings for the gene-seed choices available to us so that we can discuss it.

 

A poll helps lurkers participate - but we also get blind votes, people choosing a Chapter just because they like them, rather than with any consideration for the effects it will have on the rest of the Taurans' identity. It's much more useful to us that people give the reasons behind their choices.

 

I will attempt to post this afternoon with a round-up of the currently stated arguments for the Chapter's heritage, in the hope that this will move people forward.

 

 

Toyship: I love the idea regarding the Nova Terra Interregnum - I think it perhaps also shows why the Taurans might have become disenchanted with the Imperium's politicking - they were punished for doing the "right thing" and have become somewhat withdrawn ever since. A real strong contender, there!

Edited November 6, 2017 by Commissar Molotov

[Heru]

We have the Mantis Warriors, Lamenters, and Executioners seceeding from the Imperium during the Badab War , and they all had Penitent Crusades imposed on them, which in fairness is probably pretty lenient given the circumstances.

A White Scar successor, a Blood Angels successor and an Imperial Fist Successor, all went on Penitent Crusades. I think we have to be careful about not being too similar to them with how the Tauran get put on Penitent Crusade and with how they deal with being on Penitent Crusade.

 

While I'm not personally a fan of the whole Penitent Crusade angle for them (sort of takes how they operate out of their hands and turns it into they have to do this because they are stuck in that situation), it would on the other hand be interesting if they were an Iron Hands successor. My reasoning being that Iron Hands successors have a certain mindset and it would be interesting to see how that mindset deals with such a situation because to my knowledge there aren't any official Iron Hands successors on Penitent Crusade (the Brazen Claws crusade doesn't count as that was self imposed and was revenge oriented).

[Commissar Molotov]

With regards to it being taken out of their hands - I don't see that as being the case. My vision is that they have seen their crusade through, have served their penance through and are ready to be welcomed back with open arms. But they just never do. They remain distant and aloof, ever pushing onwards. This crusade is millennia in their past, unlike the three mentioned above who are (or were, until the shift into M42) serving their crusade.

 

EDIT: To clarify, "They never do" doesn't mean their crusade never ended or that they are on a Black Templars-esque "eternal crusade" but that they never rejoined the Imperium in the same way.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Commissar Molotov

[ToyShip]

With regards to it being taken out of their hands - I don't see that as being the case. My vision is that they have seen their crusade through, have served their penance through and are ready to be welcomed back with open arms. But they just never do. They remain distant and aloof, ever pushing onwards. This crusade is millennia in their past, unlike the three mentioned above who are (or were, until the shift into M42) serving their crusade.

 

EDIT: To clarify, "They never do" doesn't mean their crusade never ended or that they are on a Black Templars-esque "eternal crusade" but that they never rejoined the Imperium in the same way.

That was sort of the crux for me looking into older civil wars in the Imperium's history. The Nova Terra Interregnum took place late M34-Early M35. That would put the founding early, which is perfect for the ideas discussed thus far. So they are censured, sent on a penitent crusade for 100 or so years (This seems to be the standard thing, no? The Badab War chapters all were on century long crusades), during which they become ever more insular and mistrusting. I'm getting an almost Pre-Heresy Word Bearers vibe in that they were censured for doing what they were convinced was right, and had their beliefs shaken to the very foundations. Makes sense that there would be a drastic character change. So they abandon their (ruined?) Homeworld and decide to stay mobile, or are forced to forfeit it to the Imperium, though I like Mol's idea of them turning it into basically a giant reliquary. 

[Doctor Perils]

I must admit that I am also quite partial to them being an Iron Hands successor, if only because I feel the Iron Hands are generally quite underrepresented in DIYs. In addition, the stuborn mentality that is conjured up by the name "Taurans" fits very well with the Iron Hands, and both noble and savage aspects of their nature could gel very well with that geneseed it seems to me (as opposed to the IF who are generally seen as "knightly" and the WS generally seen as "savage", regardless of how little geneseed might play into those cultural tropes)

 

If we go down the IH route though, I would counsel against extensive augmentations, the "flesh is weak" philosophy being instead represented by their sheer stubornness and disregard for mortals... or some other way of putting it? Perhaps they could view their crusades as a way of going beyond the weakness of the flesh, viewing their own grim work as a way of moving mankind as a whole further away from their fundamental weakness?

 

Perhaps during the Ur-council, or under the tyranical reign of Vandire, they take that philosophy one step too far and start culling loyal citizens of the Imperium who they see as not doing enough for the war effort, which then leads to their condemnation to a penitent crusade, one which they still haven't seen fit to put an end to as they still see the flawed nature of humanity as being too feeble to be worth coming back to entirely???

 

 

Sorry for the ramble, I'm just spit-balling in the hope that there's something of interest there :)

[Commissar Molotov]

My feeling is that while we should be trying to be creative and explore unusual avenues, we have to be cautious not to just go down the path of being "edgy" and "unusual". It could easily be the case that a future CCCP is created with the express purpose of exploring the limits of being an Iron Hands successor. 

 

When the Chapter was first mooted as a potential concept, my first thought was to go down the Imperial Fists route - but I've become more and more taken with the idea of a White Scars successor as the project has been developed. 

 

So, as promised, our front-runners for gene-seed: 

 

 

Ultramarines

 

Or Ultramarines, as they seem to have fathered most of the chapters

 

In regards to UM, I think that can really work for any chapter. There are just so many of them that the varitey they exhibit is quite exceptional. A lot of people get hung up on being Codex adherent but that doesn't have to be the case. Perhaps they could even have their own battle tactica or added to the Codex itself. I would love to see an entry on 'beast hunting' since the Tyrnaids are looking to be a common foe.

 

Ultramarines are always an option but from what I can tell don't offer anything specifically useful to this chapter.

 

Imperial Fists

 

Perhaps they are stubborn, hard-headed. Imperial Fist successors?

 

 

if we did commit to this and went down the Imperial Fists heritage route, I could easily see them being descendants of the Invaders or possibly the Excoriators given their martial nature of solving issues between brethren and their idea of their relishing of combat against the Tyranids (when possibly the Orks were their last favourite quarry to battle).

 

The 'stoic defenders' and 'beast hunters' could work with both Salamanders and Imperial Fists geneseed.

 

The first geneseed that comes to mind when thinking about the Taurans is Imperial Fist. It just fits, especially if we follow the sutbborn, bullish nature - fist geneseed is infamous for that. 

 

I believe the main suggestion has been that they are of Imperial Fist stock which would easily fit a stubborn and bull-headed chapter. 

 

Maybe a Crimson Fists successor? Mexican / Spanish names

 

Although having the Imperial Fist's geneseed seems right, I do not want to get stuck creating another 'stubborn' chapter that loves to duel and doesn't like to give ground. I also think we should avoid direct correlations with the Crimson Fists. Sure, they might have similar names, but we don't have to be their successor. 

 

I'm also not particularly feeling the imperial fist vibe, which I feel is popular because of the whole dueling angle and how that relates to bull fighting. Which again is getting stuck on the bull aspect.

 

Progenitor wise, Imperial Fists would be the best bet due to the small descriptions available.

 

White Scars

 

White Scars also seem like an option if we want to go with a more savage/ uncivilized take. 

 

I think white scars would be an interesting geneseed, they fit into a less civilized take and a somewhat knightly chapter descended from the white scars could be very interesting.

 

Scars would also give an opportunity to emphasise manoeuvrability- not necessarily like a bull but (you guessed it) like a toreador... 

 

I think it is possible we could go for a White Scars successor as a second possibility, giving us an opportunity to explore some ideas around ''noble savages'.

 

Now Scars I could kinda get behind.  If later founding chapter is picked, we could go for reckless Storm Lords, Savage destroyers or hardy and resolute Dark Hunters.

 

Salamanders 

 

 

The 'stoic defenders' and 'beast hunters' could work with both Salamanders and Imperial Fists geneseed.

 

Salamanders could be interesting if we are interested in looking at ritual bull sacrifice as part of the chapter rites.

 

Salamanders have few successors, so I'd avoid them for that reason. 

 

 

Dark Angels 

 

Further, I can also imagine them being a Dark Angels successor. Stubborn, unorthodox, knight-ish along potential secrets and some shrouded parts in their history.

 

I am bit wary about making the chapter Unforgiven as this adds some constraints - most DA successors are very similar with each other - while here we might want to generate something more unique.

 

Dark Angels could work - they don't have to be similar to the rest. In fact, they could be a chapter who doesn't believe themselves guilty of the sins of the Fallen. It could further impress their stubborn nature. Or, they could strive to bring justice to the Fallen because, as you mentioned, bulls can be a sign of that. I do agree however, that the whole Fallen thing does tend to overwhelm DIYs with DA geneseed.

 

I voted for the Taurans, as they have a really cool scheme and it is a shame that they are not fleshed out. I personally like the idea of them being Dark Angels Successors, as differentiating them from the Unforgiven would definitely make for some interesting writing.

 

Dark Angels bring the whole 'Are we unforgiven or not' issue, another aspect which limits design space and takes attention from main issue.

 

Iron Hands 

 

When I think Tauren I see a Chapter that likes to hit HARD, and my instincts lean more towards Iron Hands gene seed. I don't see a Chapter a Chapter of knights or barbarians. I see a methodical Chapter that applies overwhelming force.

 

I must admit that I am also quite partial to them being an Iron Hands successor, if only because I feel the Iron Hands are generally quite underrepresented in DIYs. In addition, the stuborn mentality that is conjured up by the name "Taurans" fits very well with the Iron Hands, and both noble and savage aspects of their nature could gel very well with that geneseed it seems to me (as opposed to the IF who are generally seen as "knightly" and the WS generally seen as "savage", regardless of how little geneseed might play into those cultural tropes)

 

If we go down the IH route though, I would counsel against extensive augmentations, the "flesh is weak" philosophy being instead represented by their sheer stubornness and disregard for mortals... or some other way of putting it? Perhaps they could view their crusades as a way of going beyond the weakness of the flesh, viewing their own grim work as a way of moving mankind as a whole further away from their fundamental weakness?

 

it would on the other hand be interesting if they were an Iron Hands successor. My reasoning being that Iron Hands successors have a certain mindset and it would be interesting to see how that mindset deals with such a situation because to my knowledge there aren't any official Iron Hands successors on Penitent Crusade

 

It's interesting going back through the thread and seeing that the discussion has leaned heavily towards the Imperial Fists. 

 

However, the more I've read the ideas posted in the thread, the more I feel that the White Scars gene-seed has real potential here. 

 

I feel as though the White Scars are somewhat under represented in DIY Chapters. The exception to that would perhaps be Nineswords' http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/292096-storm-sons-wip/'>Storm Sons, who I would strongly recommend you check out. 

 

The Scars were defenders of Terra, and they have a core of nobility and strength to them, as well as a strong untameable spirit. To me, they fit with the concept of a Chapter that would stand alone against the darkness, facing unassailable horrors and gleefully spitting in their face. A Chapter that could value strength at arms, that wouldn't necessarily be bound to the dictates of the Codex. Warriors with a certain element of warmth to them.

 

Thoughts would be gratefully received. 

 

 

EDIT: I've had to rework this post as the board software said I'd included too many quotes. 

[ToyShip]

When it comes to geneseed I think we have a couple of strong options. The Fists seem the easiest, their stubborn nature is built in to their genetic code, which can be a good or bad thing. To me it seems like the easiest one is NOT the one we should go with, unless we can find a way to make them different than just paint job, name, and a little bit of history. 

 

Ultramarines geneseed is pretty much a blank slate, as you have so much variation in successor chapters. Really it comes down to the age old Liber argument of nature vs. nurture. With the Ultramarines genes, and indeed the Fists, I think the chapter they were initially drawn from would play a more prominent role than some of the more esoteric genestock. 

 

My personal favorite is the Dark Angels. They have relatively few succesors, but have arguably the purest geneseed. And they have noted as being particularly stubborn. It would be interesting to figure out how to differentiate them from your standard Unforgiven chapter. An idea would be to have their founding cadre pulled from the Angels of Absolution, an Unforgiven chapter who see themselves as having atoned for the sins of their forebears. So, going from there, you would have a blank slate as far as the Fallen are concerned, with no Deathwing or Ravenwing. That leaves us with a group of noble, stubborn. marines who have none of the Dark Angels' secrets and brooding nature. Then again, we would just be replacing the Hunt for the Fallen with the failed civil war and eventual penitent crusade. Perhaps the Tauran(s) being a chapter of an early founding, are an example of why the High Lords use the Dark Angels' geneseed so little. Each time they try it, something goes wrong. Some train of thought babbling at least.

 

White Scars geneseed would be cool as well. I think figuring out why a successor chapter doesn't use hit and run, high speed tactics would be an interesting thought exercise. Plus you have the organizational differences, not the least of which is the difference in their librarians or "Stormseers". The "noble savage" trope could definitely be put to good use here.

 

 

[Sun Reaver]

In regards to geneseed, again, I would prefer to stay away form Imperial Fists. Ultramarines were a front runner as we didn't necessarily have to be tied down to a particular primarch quirk. However, I am leaning heavily towards the White Scars. The White Scars emphasis speed, or in other words constant, unpredictable movement. What if the Taurans weren't speed freaks like their potential predecessors? They could be a 'slower' chapter in terms of battle emphasis, however, they are always moving - forward specifically. They don't give ground, they just keep coming at their enemies. This fits the the whole crusading fleets idea as well. Bulls might not be the fastest, but once they get going, they are unstoppable and hit like a freight train. 

 

In terms of the homeworld, I prefer the use of one. Perhaps even a system in which the Bulls recruit form as a whole. This gives the "bull" a piece of land to patrol and protect. A company should always stay in the system to protect the hearth. I also like the idea of Tryanids attacking the system. Perhaps even destroying a significant portion of the system. This forces them to rely more on crusading? Vengeance? Maybe seek out more Tryanids to destroy? View them as the biggest threat to the Imperium? 

 

Overall, loving the flow of ideas. I can't wait to see the finished piece when we are all done! Which, yes, will be quite some time from now lol. 

 

 

[Heru]

My feeling is that while we should be trying to be creative and explore unusual avenues, we have to be cautious not to just go down the path of being "edgy" and "unusual". It could easily be the case that a future CCCP is created with the express purpose of exploring the limits of being an Iron Hands successor.

That's the second time you've used the words "edgy" and "unusual" in reference to the Iron Hand geneseed suggestion. Though the first time you only put unusual in quotation marks. Neither of which motivated me to make the suggestion of the geneseed. I think my feeling that inspired the suggestion was more based on temperament. A Chapter that fights stubbornly, slow to anger but when it is that is when it hits the hardest. Much like Ferrus Manus at the Instvaan drop site massacre.

 

 

When the Chapter was first mooted as a potential concept, my first thought was to go down the Imperial Fists route - but I've become more and more taken with the idea of a White Scars successor as the project has been developed.

I think the issue I'm having with the White Scars geneseed when it comes to my mental image of the Tauren, is the 3rd edition fluff from the Index Astartes article that says the White Scar's geneseed seems to have inherited the wild savagery and thirst for war of the tribes of Chogoris.

 

 

I went ahead and looked up some stuff on the Taurus star sign traits for some inspiration on traits that might suit the Tauren:

http://www.astrology-zodiac-signs.com/zodiac-signs/taurus/

Edited November 7, 2017 by Heru

[Zhiv]

 

 

I must admit that I am also quite partial to them being an Iron Hands successor, if only because I feel the Iron Hands are generally quite underrepresented in DIYs. In addition, the stuborn mentality that is conjured up by the name "Taurans" fits very well with the Iron Hands, and both noble and savage aspects of their nature could gel very well with that geneseed it seems to me (as opposed to the IF who are generally seen as "knightly" and the WS generally seen as "savage", regardless of how little geneseed might play into those cultural tropes)

 

I agree them being underrepresented but I am not sure that is the reason to use Iron Hands background here.  The founding cadre coming from Iron Hands or their successors would likely have the trademark distaste for flesh and penchant for cybernetic augmentation. The little we have for Taurans doesn't seem to support this.  I mean, of course we could push them to this direction and it could be interesting twist but I am not sure that's how most of us imagine Taurans (see Molotov's extensive post about the matter). 

 

 

I think the issue I'm having with the White Scars geneseed when it comes to my mental image of the Tauren, is the 3rd edition fluff from the Index Astartes article that says the White Scar's geneseed seems to have inherited the wild savagery and thirst for war of the tribes of Chogoris.

 

On the other hand Dark Hunters are White Scars successors.  

 

"Brothers, we are but shadows in the darkness, yet we carry the trust and faith of all mankind upon our shoulders. That trust will never be misplaced. That faith shall never be broken. We will endure, and always and in all things we will be faithful to He who made us. That is our burden and our privilege. We are the Hunters in the Dark, and we shall never be defeated."  Doesn't sound very wild and savage to me.  Or in other words, the 3rd edition fluff has been retconned. 

 

Earlier I suggested that Dark Hunters could have been the chapter that provided the initial training cadre of Taurans. 

[Commissar Molotov]

That's the second time you've used the words "edgy" and "unusual" in reference to the Iron Hand geneseed suggestion. Though the first time you only put unusual in quotation marks. Neither of which motivated me to make the suggestion of the geneseed. I think my feeling that inspired the suggestion was more based on temperament. A Chapter that fights stubbornly, slow to anger but when it is that is when it hits the hardest. Much like Ferrus Manus at the Instvaan drop site massacre.

I've been replying off my phone for the last few posts; hence why one of my posts originally had the Tauran "abandoning their homework"... if it appeared I was belittling your idea I apologise - it isn't intentional. I suppose my feelings are that whilst we can certainly say we have an opportunity to create unique and unusual concepts as part of this project, we are also showcasing the Chapter creation process for all to see. I feel there is a tendency for Chapter creators to sometimes be unconventional simply for the sake of it, rather than because it strengthens their concept. For example, the pervasive hatred of Ultramarines gene-seed.

 

What I'm trying to say is that in choosing Iron Hands gene-seed, we shouldn't do it because we haven't seen many DIY chapters with it. As you say, that wasn't one of your primary motivations.

 

I feel that the prior fluff on the White Scars is open to interpretation, and perhaps as the Scars have developed through the creation of characters like Kor'sarro Khan and the White Scars novels by Chris Wraight, it might not he as applicable.

 

This is the fluff from IA:WS -

 

The gene-seed of the White Scars appears to be stable and initially displayed on aberrations or mutation. However, with the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war. Despite the teachings of the Khans and Stormseers, it is not unheard of for tribal feuds to flare up between fello squad members. In addition to this, there have been several recorded instances where White Scars Brotherhoods have bloodily exceeded their mission objectives, such as the infamous `Red Highway Massacre`.

 

Whether such incidents are as a result of some inherent flaw in the White Scars` genetic material or came about after the integration of the tribesmen is unknown, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is eager to know which. The White Scars successor Chapters, the Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers and the Storm Lords are all equally ferocious and fine examples of the combat teachings of Jaghatai Khan.

"Wild savagery", "ferociousness" and a "thirst for war" I think are all things that could be ameliorated or that could strengthen our concept. You spoke of a Chapter that hits hard, and I think that could be something that works for us. With at least five thousand years of history, savagery can be something that the Tauran work to tame, a thirst for war can be a hunger to reclaim the Imperium, and ferociousness can be an unrelenting and merciless campaign against their enemies. Edited November 7, 2017 by Commissar Molotov

[Heru]

"Wild savagery", "ferociousness" and a "thirst for war" I think are all things that could be ameliorated or that could strengthen our concept. You spoke of a Chapter that hits hard, and I think that could be something that works for us. With at least five thousand years of history, savagery can be something that the Tauran work to tame, a thirst for war can be a hunger to reclaim the Imperium, and ferociousness can be an unrelenting and merciless campaign against their enemies.

I think the problem we run into there is with the Tauran's established fluff in that they only appear rarely in Imperial histories. A Chapter with the drive you describe feels like a Chapter that would be seen more often. We would have to establish where they are focusing this drive because they aren't doing it that often in the Imperial eye. I've mentioned it a couple of times before but the Carcharodons are very similar, a ferocious Chapter that is rarely seen by the Imperium proper, off fighting in the dark. We also have to be careful about not making the Tauran too like them.

 

I'm not trying to torpedo the White Scars geneseed idea (actually Zhiv's Dark Hunter reminder has warmed me to it a bit).

 

In regards to hitting hard I just want to clarify that's a play on the bull aspect, for most things a bull just has to hit its target once to take it out of the game (though sometimes with a few stomps for good measure). The bull though is also a hardy creature that takes a fair effort to put down.

[Black Cohort]

At this point I think White Scars are my preferred choice. Seeing their normal traits used on a chapter that doesn't focus on bikes/ fast units would be interesting.

 

My second choice would be Imperial Fists, the traits we are talking about the Taurans having seamlessly fit with Fist heritage. But it almost seems to obvious and easy.

 

Third would be Iron Hands, but my main concern is having to deal with "the flesh is weak".

 

Personally I don't think any of the others are serious contenders at this point. Both Dark and Blood Angels have too much baggage, Ultramarines don't seem to add much, and Raven Guard and Salamanders have never really come up as options.

[Sete]

I like the Iron Hands gene seed idea. A Gorgon in ancient lybian legend (and then adapted for D&D) is a Bull. There ya have it.

 

If you guys don't like the idea, I'll use it in a new IH DiY chapter.

Edited November 7, 2017 by Sete

[Doctor Perils]

Though I'm not quite as partial to the white scars geneseed (I don't feel like Taurans and iberian warriors/knights go well with the general philosophy of speed that seems to be motivated by an inward genetic yearning for movement if the WS HH books are anything to go by), the Vth legions yearning for movement could be represented by the "exploration of the West indies and conquistadors" theme people were putting forward, so scared geneseed doesn't need to come out of left field either

[Brother Lunkhead]

I like the idea of the Tauran as a post penitent crusade fleet based chapter. That aspect definitely brings to mind the White Scars, noble, but savage, nomadic warrior philosophers of the steppes (sorry for all the adjectives). But some of the early ideas of them being a knightly order doesn't quite fit the tradions of the WS and their successors. This seems more fitting of a IF successor (Teutonic knightly order as opposed to a Templar knightly order like the Dark Angelsl) .

 

To separate the Tauran ( Tauran or Taurans.... have we fixed this?) eternal crusade from the idea of the Black Templars eternal crusade I see them more as a wandering fleet, much like the Carcharodons (only... NOT like the Carcharodons). However much I love the idea of them being a WS successor, I really feel that the chapter personality of the Tauran is more like the IF than the WS.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Chaplain Dosjetka
Edited buggy formatting.