CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Brother Cambrius]

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

 

This is more what I meant. Steady in preparing the trap the enemy is being forced/coerced into patiently; then when the time is right, the Taurans unleash their wave after wave of devastating mounted assaults that is dubbed 'The Stampede'.

 

Cambrius

[Kelborn]

We could combine stampede and horned bull tactics.

Scouts, bikes and other fast moving units encircle, while the majority advances without any hesitations.

 

Heavy weapons would be at the end to covet their overall advance.

[Black Cohort]

Could they mainly use heavy weapons that can either be fired on the move or are on a vehicle/ dreadnought?

[Kelborn]

Could they mainly use heavy weapons that can either be fired on the move or are on a vehicle/ dreadnought?

Had the same thought. Constant advance, no falter.

[Heru]

 

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

This is more what I meant. Steady in preparing the trap the enemy is being forced/coerced into patiently; then when the time is right, the Taurans unleash their wave after wave of devastating mounted assaults that is dubbed 'The Stampede'.

 

Cambrius

 

Sounds more Imperial Guard than Space Marines.

[Black Cohort]

 

Could they mainly use heavy weapons that can either be fired on the move or are on a vehicle/ dreadnought?

Had the same thought. Constant advance, no falter.

Perhaps a preference for razorbacks over rhinos?

[Brother Cambrius]

 

 

This is more what I meant. Steady in preparing the trap the enemy is being forced/coerced into patiently; then when the time is right, the Taurans unleash their wave after wave of devastating mounted assaults that is dubbed 'The Stampede'.

 

Cambrius

 

Sounds more Imperial Guard than Space Marines.

 

 

Perhaps not multiple endless waves, but perhaps two or three that seem like an eternity due to the ferocity of a mounted Astartes assault.

 

Razorback-styled attacks would make sense, paired with bikers and aggressive heavy support.

 

<EDIT> With a steady form of combat, is it plausible that the Taurans field a high amount of Sternguard styled veterans?

 

Cambrius

Edited November 24, 2017 by Brother Cambrius

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

This is more what I meant. Steady in preparing the trap the enemy is being forced/coerced into patiently; then when the time is right, the Taurans unleash their wave after wave of devastating mounted assaults that is dubbed 'The Stampede'.

 

Cambrius

 

 

That's exactly it!! 

 

 

 

I don't think these ideas have to be mutually exclusive. Striking, as a rule with overwhelming force as your primary style of putting steel on target doesn't have to be reckless. In fact it really can't be, or eventually, no more chapter. Using a large force to strike the foe relentlessly but intelligently, at the right moment would look like a stampede.

This is more what I meant. Steady in preparing the trap the enemy is being forced/coerced into patiently; then when the time is right, the Taurans unleash their wave after wave of devastating mounted assaults that is dubbed 'The Stampede'.

 

Cambrius

 

Sounds more Imperial Guard than Space Marines.

 

 

Not at all like imperial guard... If you've ever seen a stampede, it is short and massively destructive. This is something Space Marines can pull off... Imperial Guard are a totally different creature. They execute massive long campaigns as a rule whereas Space Marines are the premiere shock troops. They can do that on a large scale or a small scale like no IG unit (even elite units) of any size could hope to do.

[Wargamer]

Okay, so I'm coming in late here, but maybe that's a good thing?

 

My initial impression of the Taurans and the bullet points was "cliché Chapter". They feel like a Carcharodon knockoff.

 

I think the priority is to establish where they have been and why nobody has seen them, because if I'm completely switching off at the moment I see "mysterious fleet based Chapter lost to history" then others will be as well.

 

So, what could bog a fleet Chapter down for so long as to leave them largely absent from Imperial history?

[Brother Cambrius]

Okay, so I'm coming in late here, but maybe that's a good thing?

 

My initial impression of the Taurans and the bullet points was "cliché Chapter". They feel like a Carcharodon knockoff.

 

I think the priority is to establish where they have been and why nobody has seen them, because if I'm completely switching off at the moment I see "mysterious fleet based Chapter lost to history" then others will be as well.

 

So, what could bog a fleet Chapter down for so long as to leave them largely absent from Imperial history?

 

Welcome to the CCCP (no not the Soviet Union) Brother! Thanks for your input and providing some fresh eyes, which are always appreciated and welcomed.

 

I can understand where you coming from in attempting to avoid 'xeroxing' the Carcharodons with this design.

 

In terms of what could have led a chapter to disappear from Imperial records, there's a few options that stick out in my mind:

 

1. Warp Storm preventing their leaving a region of space
2. Going beyond Imperial space to deal with a specific xenos threat for a long-protracted time
3. Records expunged/lost through =][= influence or from their own choosing due to an incident of great shame
4. A possible name change/rebirth?

Cambrius

[Zhiv]

 

Okay, so I'm coming in late here, but maybe that's a good thing?

 

My initial impression of the Taurans and the bullet points was "cliché Chapter". They feel like a Carcharodon knockoff.

 

I think the priority is to establish where they have been and why nobody has seen them, because if I'm completely switching off at the moment I see "mysterious fleet based Chapter lost to history" then others will be as well.

 

So, what could bog a fleet Chapter down for so long as to leave them largely absent from Imperial history?

 

Welcome to the CCCP (no not the Soviet Union) Brother! Thanks for your input and providing some fresh eyes, which are always appreciated and welcomed.

 

I can understand where you coming from in attempting to avoid 'xeroxing' the Carcharodons with this design.

 

In terms of what could have led a chapter to disappear from Imperial records, there's a few options that stick out in my mind:

 

1. Warp Storm preventing their leaving a region of space
2. Going beyond Imperial space to deal with a specific xenos threat for a long-protracted time
3. Records expunged/lost through =][= influence or from their own choosing due to an incident of great shame
4. A possible name change/rebirth?

Cambrius

 

 

Well, they did not disappear from records as per se.  They were only rarely seen, even if they still provided tithe to Deathwatch.  The little official fluff we has mentions they have crusading fleets so it well might be that they were busy crusading against something somewhere far way, and thus were never really seen. 

[Wargamer]

While it might be a bit on the nose, a potential campaign springs to mind: first, the Taurans have found a part of the Webway and have been fighting for control of it against Eldar and Necrons alike. Such an unusual conflict would lend itself to strong ties to the Deathwatch.

[Brother Lunkhead]

While it might be a bit on the nose, a potential campaign springs to mind: first, the Taurans have found a part of the Webway and have been fighting for control of it against Eldar and Necrons alike. Such an unusual conflict would lend itself to strong ties to the Deathwatch.

 

Nice idea ...... Hold onto that thought for later consideration.

 

Also, I think that once we've fleshed things out no one will think that the Taurans are a Carcharodon knockoff or a Black Templar knockoff for that matter.

 

Also, also.... I think that we should consider how long idea discussions will last before we vote on options. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to rush things or stymy discussion. But I think we should set a time limit (a week, two weeks, a month....) so people know how long they have to get their ideas into the discussion. This should also keep momentum up for the project. Any thoughts?

[Machine God]

Here's a thing that has tumbled out of my head while eating dinner: Have you considered what the Celebrants, psychopaths much like their other brethren, actually do to earn their name? What would psychopaths, not only with reinforced thought processes by psycho-conditioning and hypno-suggestion but a singular purpose and a violent raison d'etre, spend their time? 

 

What is joy to a psychopath? What is worth celebrating to people that literally live to kill and be killed?

 

That is a very thin line to cross towards Slaanesh, right?

Or Khorne too.

 

Edit: Sorry for thread-jacking but I needed Olis' post.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Machine God

[Commissar Molotov]

Hi all, 

 

My access to the Bolter and Chainsword has been sporadic at best; my work computer doesn't allow me to post and I've had limited access at home, meaning that my phone is my only option - not ideal for the sorts of detailed posts that the Liber requires. 

 

I see the White Scars and the Taurans diverging somewhat in their combat doctrines - whilst the White Scars are adept at striking fast and then falling back, I see the Tauran as a relentless, unstoppable force. I agree with the idea of constant motion - but not necessarily the idea of speed. Perhaps that's something that dovetails with the ideas from GW fluff that the Tauran are 'steady' - they're not Dwarven or like the Salamanders, but they are experts at placing the enemy under pressure, and slowly cranking up that pressure until they are inevitably crushed. Whilst my thoughts seem to suggest a troop-heavy approach like the Death Guard, I'm not sure I mean it that way - but certainly the idea of relentlessness - which to me is the watchword of the Taurans.

 

The idea that the Taurans' homeworld (or original recruiting world) might be a grassland/savannah world which might allow us to explore some Zulu influences is an interesting one. It makes me think of the idea of the 'elephant's graveyard', which might perhaps link with some of my previous ideas regarding a sort of ritual sacrificial area maintained by an honour guard of the Tauran.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I think Commissar Molotov makes some very good points. The idea of the Taurans applying steady grinding pressure on the foe is good. But, I see this mainly as the first phase of their strategy. Brother Cambrius' idea of the stampede would make sense as the final phase of the Taurans' strategy. Finally crushing the enemy suddenly and brutally.

 

As for the ritual sacrifice area being maintained by an honour guard, I would suggest a ritual return to the homeworld  by the entire chapter every so many decades to perform ritual sacrifice instead. That would be more in keeping with the theme of the "elephants' graveyard". I don't see keeping an honour guard in place on a dead home world  as something the Taurans would do. For a nomadic chapter that seems too much like a punishment.

 

Thanks to Commissar Molotov for being so diligent in keeping up with everything. It must be a pain just using your phone. Kudos to you sir 

[Black Cohort]

Maybe it is a punishment? Redeem yourself by undertaking a decade long vow of vigilance over this site.

 

The more we talk about their tactics the more it reinforces to me that they need to operate at the battle company + size as standard. I also still see them using dreadnoughts and other mobile platforms for most of their heavy weapons. Devestators would mainly use longer ranged weapons so they don't need to redeploy as often. razorback is favoured over the rhino for inherent heavy weapons support.

 

Is there a precedent for a battle company or chapter to have 2 razorbacks per squad standard?

[Zhiv]

Is there a precedent for a battle company or chapter to have 2 razorbacks per squad standard?

 

As far as I know, no.   This lists razorbacks as armory asset as opposed to company asset. 

[Servant of Dante]

(While we’re on the topic of force sizes, I made a post in the main Liber Unity Project thread related to that; I know it’s a bit long but I’d appreciate your thoughts)

 

Otherwise, I think the idea of a Zulu-style nomadic chapter is really neat. Maybe I missed the boat on this one, but would it be possible for them to have a number of core recruiting planets spread around that they value equally, rather than having very close ties to a singular world?

 

Always operating at a company plus level means that they probably only bother with large issues right? 100 marines are wasted on the kind of surgical work most chapters probably spend most of their time on.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Servant of Dante

[Brother Lunkhead]

Maybe it is a punishment? Redeem yourself by undertaking a decade long vow of vigilance over this site.

 

The more we talk about their tactics the more it reinforces to me that they need to operate at the battle company + size as standard. I also still see them using dreadnoughts and other mobile platforms for most of their heavy weapons. Devestators would mainly use longer ranged weapons so they don't need to redeploy as often. razorback is favoured over the rhino for inherent heavy weapons support.

 

Is there a precedent for a battle company or chapter to have 2 razorbacks per squad standard?

 

Punishment to be part of an Honour Guard detail? I don't think so. Honour Guard is just that, an honour (even if individual SM's would rather be in battle). No, I don't see this sort of thing as part of the Taurans tradition. I see them as not given to the flourish and trappings of this kind of ceremonial detail. Also, it would have no practical purpose either, such as protection of the home world or even the ceremonial site. For that they would have to deploy at least a battle company, and I don't think the Taurans would do that.

 

Now, on the subject of tactics, I think you have something there brother. In order to implement the sort of strategy we've been talking about, the Taurans would almost certainly operate in Battle Company + size units. Of coarse this would not always be the case. There will always be small surgical strikes that call for smaller formations or even a single Astartes. But I think predominately they would operate in these larger formations as Black Cohort suggests.

 

As Brother Zhiv states, there is no precedent for a battle company to have any razorbacks. That doesn't mean that any given battle company can't utilize as many razorbacks as needed for a given operation. Perhaps the armoury has an unusually large number of razorbacks in it's inventory.

 

 

(While we’re on the topic of force sizes, I made a post in the main Liber Unity Project thread related to that; I know it’s a bit long but I’d appreciate your thoughts)

 

Otherwise, I think the idea of a Zulu-style nomadic chapter is really neat. Maybe I missed the boat on this one, but would it be possible for them to have a number of core recruiting planets spread around that they value equally, rather than having very close ties to a singular world?

 

Always operating at a company plus level means that they probably only bother with large issues right? 100 marines are wasted on the kind of surgical work most chapters probably spend most of their time on.

 

Are you referring to your 26 Nov post concerning the SoB force projection?

 

I think it would absolutely make sense to have several core recruiting world rather than one. Being a nomadic chapter they would almost have to rely on a number of worlds for recruiting.

[Black Cohort]

Perhaps the Chapter has centralized all vehicles in the armoury? If they tend to use razorbacks it doesn't make sense to have a rhino assigned to every squad.

 

If we are looking at a relentless attack style then I see the first company favouring terminator armour and the eighth and ninth companies using lots of centurions (as much as I hate them). Thus a standard task force would look something like:

 

Battle company

- captain/ command squad in land raider

- chaplain

- 6 combat squaded tactical squads in razorbacks

-2 jump pack equipped assault squads

-2 devestator squads in rhinos (probably missile launchers and lascannons)

-2 dreadnoughts (ranged loadout)

 

Extras attached to battle company

Captain from res company

various specialists

-15 to 20 first company vets, most in terminator armour any without jump packs in land raiders

-3 reserve company tactical squads mix of bikes and rhinos

-1 reserve assault marine squad in mix of centurion armour, attack bikes and land speeders

-1 reserve assault marine squad in jump packs

-2 reserve devestator squads with rhinos, several marines detached to operate centurion armour

-3 scout squads, either on bikes/ storms (sniper scouts don't seem to fit tactics)

Armoured assets

 

Razorbacks and land raiders form the "head" which advances slowly but deliberately with devestators behind providing fire support. Faster elements (bikes, jump packs, rhino tacticals) divide in two and form the "horns" which break through the enemy line and encircle the objective. Infantry dismounts if armour gets bogged down.

 

So when you add everything up, in my mind a "standard" force is about 2 companies worth of marines.

 

Likely the chapter can sustain 2 such deployments at any one time, representing about 40-50% of chapter strength, stretching to 3 if necessary. Ideally you have 2 battle companies deployed, 1 returning/ replenishing and 1 in reserve/ preparing to deploy. This also leaves the ability for a couple of smaller (10-20 marine) deployments alongside the main ones.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Black Cohort

[Brother Lunkhead]

Nice work Brother Black

 

On the whole I really like what you have there. I have just a few points to consider in keeping true to the universe we are playing in as presented in 30 years of 40k lore. Considering that a single battle barge has the capacity and capability to hold and support three full Space Marine companies, it is not unreasonable that the standard Taurans battle group would consist of a force basically of a type described by Brother Black.

 

Considering though that the razorback is a much more complicated piece of war gear than the rhino, I don't think you can equip every company or even just every battle company with enough razorbacks to carry every battle brother into harm's way. Centurion armour is a rare piece of war gear, so this presents a similar problem. No Space Marine chapter is going to have "lots" of centurion armour.

 

I would caution against using an almost exclusive long ranged weapons load out in your devastator squads. Types of weapons deployed should be dictated by mission requirements not visa versa.

 

Of coarse in a game you can load up your army with whatever the you want. Historically though, no army has ever had even close to everything it needs much less wants. I think that the Taurans should reflect this reality as seen in the real world and the 40k universe.

 

As to everything else in Brother Black's most recent post, I find no fault.

 

And as with all of my posts..... That's just my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it

Edited November 28, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[Black Cohort]

How rare is centurion armour?  I was thinking around 10 suits per task force, so probably 30-40 in the chapter.

 

My logic for Devestators loading up on longer ranged weapons is that other heavy weapon platforms would use have the shorter ranged heavy weapons.  Of course devastators can use other weapons, this would just be the preferred option.

 

As for razorbacks, perhaps they have less of other rhino chassis variants?  So a focus on IFVs (razorbacks), instead of APCs (rhinos) and tanks/self propelled guns (predators/ vindicators/ whirlwinds).

 

I agree with Lunkhead's idea that their fleets are centered around a battle barge, which probably means they have 3 or 4.  That would likely mean that they have very few strike cruisers.

[Servant of Dante]

[snip]

 

 

 

(While we’re on the topic of force sizes, I made a post in the main Liber Unity Project thread related to that; I know it’s a bit long but I’d appreciate your thoughts)

 

Otherwise, I think the idea of a Zulu-style nomadic chapter is really neat. Maybe I missed the boat on this one, but would it be possible for them to have a number of core recruiting planets spread around that they value equally, rather than having very close ties to a singular world?

 

Always operating at a company plus level means that they probably only bother with large issues right? 100 marines are wasted on the kind of surgical work most chapters probably spend most of their time on.

Are you referring to your 26 Nov post concerning the SoB force projection?

 

I think it would absolutely make sense to have several core recruiting world rather than one. Being a nomadic chapter they would almost have to rely on a number of worlds for recruiting.

Yes, that one

[Brother Lunkhead]

How rare is centurion armour?  I was thinking around 10 suits per task force, so probably 30-40 in the chapter.

 

My logic for Devestators loading up on longer ranged weapons is that other heavy weapon platforms would use have the shorter ranged heavy weapons.  Of course devastators can use other weapons, this would just be the preferred option.

 

As for razorbacks, perhaps they have less of other rhino chassis variants?  So a focus on IFVs (razorbacks), instead of APCs (rhinos) and tanks/self propelled guns (predators/ vindicators/ whirlwinds).

 

I agree with Lunkhead's idea that their fleets are centered around a battle barge, which probably means they have 3 or 4.  That would likely mean that they have very few strike cruisers.

 

I imagine centurion armour is pretty rare. The priority in distribution of any equipment is going to be first founding chapters and everything else is on a priority basis. I think that a chapter like the Taurans will be lucky to have it's basic needs fulfilled. Rare equipment like centurion armour is probably produced only by a few (maybe only one) forge worlds.

 

As far as razorbacks are concerned, once again it boils down to the ability to procure the weapons load out. I can just imagine the Taurans requisition request for twin linked heavy bolter and twin linked lascannons and how the AdMech quartermaster receives it. Hmmm.....request for 50 - 100 twin linked heavy bolters, request for 50 - 100 twin linked lascannons and associated turret assemblies for razorbacks...... let's see......  that.... DENIED! (all in binary of coarse)

 

Devastators are better suited for direct infantry support than heavy weapons platform. Mission will dictate weapons load out. That's not to say that weapons inventory won't have a dominant supply of long ranged weapons available to devastator squads if that is what's called for in the majority of their mission profiles.

 

When creating lore for a Space Marine chapter it's very tempting to gear them up with all or most of what you imagine they need. It's just not very realistic. Weapons inventory is going to be based on the availability and whim of the AdMeck and not necessarily in that order. I imagine the Taurans being more hard pressed than most in getting what they need. And I think that fact will make their achievements that much more glorious!!

 

 

 

[snip]

 

(While we’re on the topic of force sizes, I made a post in the main Liber Unity Project thread related to that; I know it’s a bit long but I’d appreciate your thoughts)

 

Otherwise, I think the idea of a Zulu-style nomadic chapter is really neat. Maybe I missed the boat on this one, but would it be possible for them to have a number of core recruiting planets spread around that they value equally, rather than having very close ties to a singular world?

 

Always operating at a company plus level means that they probably only bother with large issues right? 100 marines are wasted on the kind of surgical work most chapters probably spend most of their time on.

Are you referring to your 26 Nov post concerning the SoB force projection?

 

I think it would absolutely make sense to have several core recruiting world rather than one. Being a nomadic chapter they would almost have to rely on a number of worlds for recruiting.

Yes, that one

 

 

Using your force size post concerning SoB, I'll use that to refer to the Taurans. I have to go with Brother Black on this one. Nothing says "Crush, Kill, Destroy" like overwhelming force, and nothing says overwhelming force like 100 - 200 screaming Space Marines