What is the truth about the Alpha Legion?

[mc warhammer]

Were they, though? Or is that a widespread misconception?

 

i think there's probably enough in-universe "evidence " to support people's feelings on the matter either way

[Zuvassin]

The difference is that the Emperor's goal to fight Chaos is to essentially avoid it by building the Webway, which in turn allows humanity to conquer and spread across the galaxy without the need for the warp to travel in, or the relevant human exposure to the warp in the form of navigators, astropaths, etc.

 

The Cabal's plan is to actually defeat Chaos by starving it of the species that serves as its primary fuel, especially after the fall of the Eldar both reduces their numbers and leads them to the use of spirit stones to try and deny Chaos (Slaanesh in particular) their souls.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Were they, though? Or is that a widespread misconception?

 

Given that Deliverance Lost tells explicitly that the Emperor built the genetic codes for the Primarchs in very specific ways strongly suggests that, yes, each Primarch and their Legion was manufactured to fill very specific purposes.

[mc warhammer]

 

Were they, though? Or is that a widespread misconception?

 

Given that Deliverance Lost tells explicitly that the Emperor built the genetic codes for the Primarchs in very specific ways strongly suggests that, yes, each Primarch and their Legion was manufactured to fill very specific purposes.

 

 

i'd still be careful about making a call on that. even if that is 100% certain, there isn't really an "executioner gene"...

[b1soul]

Emotions fuel Chaos. How does using the Webway suppress human emotions?

 

Shouldn't the Emp be mass-producing mood-suppressing drugs a la the Christian Bale movie Equilibrium?

[slitth]

Emotions fuel Chaos. How does using the Webway suppress human emotions?

 

Shouldn't the Emp be mass-producing mood-suppressing drugs a la the Christian Bale movie Equilibrium?

 

Because it the psychic aspect of mankind that allow use to interact with the warp on an unconscious level.

While emotions impact this psychic aspect causing it to fuel Chaos, emotions also act as a kind of defence.

Removing the emotions will stop mankind from feeding Chaos, but will allow easy access to our being.

 

I believe that the Emperor was trying to make religion that draw strength of faith in one self, instead of turning to a outside source.

If that worked, then we would not feed Chaos in the same way and we would still have a strong mental defence.

This would not win the wars as we will continue to feed chaos no matter what as long as we have the psychic aspect.

But it will limit the influence that Chaos has over mankind, making it easier to maintain and fight.

 

The next step would be to remove all how has a conscious control of the psychic aspect and limiting the contact to the warp.

Having control of the webway would allow both things.

Travelling through the webway do not have the same risk of exposure to Chaos as warp travel has. So less demonic possession will happen.

We would also have a stable way of communication.

So the Emperor can do way with Navigators and Astropaths when he has control of the webway.

And all other psykers where being hunted by the Black Ships.

 

So if the plan worked the demons would be strong but utterly contained in the warp.

But the Emperor wasn't even close to achieving any of his goals.

Faith in the divine survived in the shadows.

And the webway became a burden instead of a gift.

[Ascanius]

 

Were they, though? Or is that a widespread misconception?

Given that Deliverance Lost tells explicitly that the Emperor built the genetic codes for the Primarchs in very specific ways strongly suggests that, yes, each Primarch and their Legion was manufactured to fill very specific purposes.

Yeah, but were they the purposes widely ascribed to them by speculation in or out of the setting? This is deliberately a mystery, you know; Curze and Sanguinius discuss the fact that it's a topic of contention between the Primarchs, whether the Emperor had a grand design and, if so, exactly what it was - because he never told anyone if he did.

 

This is like the other discussion a while ago in which people speculated about the idea that the "trefoil Legions" were the only ones the Emperor intended to keep around after the Great Crusade, and what their purposes might be - when there was never, in fact, any evidence that the "trefoil" Legions had that particular purpose, where others did not.

 

It's the "Space Wolves were always intended to destroy the other Legions" idea again. You can theorise, but a lot of the "evidence" cited is Leman Russ's and the Space Wolves' own beliefs about themselves, which could be wrong, or which could be a deliberate pose adopted by Russ and/or the Legion. There's certainly plenty of evidence that Russ was far from the barbarian he played at being.

 

My own theory about the VI Legion is that Russ used the barbarian guise to be a better leader for his Legion, and deliberately cultivated the impression that the VI Legion were the Emperor's executioners or "dirty workers", in order to force a form of wary respect from other Legions who might otherwise have disregarded or despised them for their Fenrisian ways. This included acting like the Emperor's "bad cop" with Angron and others - not because the Emperor had actually told Russ to keep the others in line, but because Russ had to walk the walk.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I have heard AL at least for HH is based upon a European terrorist cell. They want to destroy the enemy using very intricately detailed plans unfathomable by the enemy.

[bluntblade]

I've always thought Russ' motives on Ghenna get short shrift. The fact that he cites Lorgar's philosophy shows he was concerned about Angron's actions. If anything his "executioner" hat gave him trouble there.

 

I'd love to see this addressed more; Russ may view Angron much as Corvus sees Curze.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I wasn't referring to the Wolves as executioners because, as you say, that is entirely a self-inflicted viewpoint.  I'm referring to the fact that the Emperor specifically inserted canine DNA into Russ' genetic code.  Consider the usual traits associated with canines: extreme loyalty to pack members (including pet-parents in the case of domesticated animals), aggressive combat instincts, works well in a team (ie, pack tactics to take down large prey), and obedience to the alpha (in this case, the Emperor).  All of these can be applied in some way to the Rout and I feel define them more than some off-handed comment about the "Emperor's Executioners."

 

Since this thread is specifically referencing the Alpha Legion, my points wasn't regarding the Wolves as executioners or the Night Lords as judges, but the Alphas as spies.  Given their almost compulsively secretive behavior and the preternatural skill they exhibit when conducting covert operations, it makes perfect sense -- with respect to the aforementioned passage from Deliverance Lost -- that the Alphas were built specifically for this purpose.  Consider that Omegon kept secrets from his "half of my soul" twin brother, that he and (by extension) Sheed Ranko kept secrets from the task force in The Serpent Beneath, that secrets were kept from Grammaticus, from the Cabal, from Horus, from the other Legions.  Consider how well they infiltrate other forces: just from memory, there was a Legionnaire on the bridge of a World Eaters warship above Isstvan, several squads' worth infiltrated the Raven Guard on Deliverance, Alpharius himself successfully impersonated Shadrak Meduson (and another of his crew likewise successfully impersonated Cybus), Omegon infiltrated the tech-guilds on Kiavahr. . . and let's not forget Alpharius and his crews that manage to make it onto Terra and move around the Imperial Palace itself, arguably the most secure structure in the Imperium.  Some of that is skill imparted by training and experience, but given the herculean measure of some of those tasks, at least a portion of their almost-supernatural ability to blend has to be innate.

[Ascanius]

Well, I don't disagree with that, for sure. I guess I was reacting more to the way it's generally taken too far in the community (in my opinion), from "the Primarchs were deliberately given specialities" to "the Emperor intended the Primarchs and their Legions to be X!"

[rendingon1+]

Well, I don't disagree with that, for sure. I guess I was reacting more to the way it's generally taken too far in the community (in my opinion), from "the Primarchs were deliberately given specialities" to "the Emperor intended the Primarchs and their Legions to be X!"

Hm, actually when it comes to XX legion purpose there's a passage in HH3 that they specifically were made as a spies/spec ops specialists. I might be wrong, don't have a book right now to confirm it.

[Ascanius]

Let me put it another way.

 

The VI Legion have certain qualities. That they and Russ were deliberately designed to possess those qualities is not in dispute.

 

However, taking those qualities as evidence that the Space Wolves were designed as the Emperor's bloodhounds, enforcers, executioners, or birthday party clowns misses the point, in my opinion.

 

None of the Legions were designed to be one thing alone. Tendencies and specialities are not destiny or restrictions.

 

Besides which, it also seems fairly obvious to me that the Emperor never intended to keep a tight enough grip on the Primarchs and the Legions to ensure that they "grew up" to fulfil narrowly circumscribed roles, or else why let Angron mutilate the XII or Lorgar proselytise to the XVII?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You're missing a point, though: the Emperor didn't intend for the Primarchs to be scattered across the galaxy. That was Chaos interfering in his plans. Which means he wanted them all to grow up together, at his side, which would have allowed him to mold them specifically as he saw fit while avoiding a lot of the problems that were created along the way.

[carlisimo]

Emotions fuel Chaos. How does using the Webway suppress human emotions?

 

Shouldn't the Emp be mass-producing mood-suppressing drugs a la the Christian Bale movie Equilibrium?

It doesn't, but the Webway is largely shielded from the Warp.  Not 100%, though; the Dark Eldar that live in there suffer a very slow leeching of their souls by Slaanesh.  That's still a whole lot better than when they're outside of the Webway.  The Dark Eldar do worry that the use of pyschic powers would draw daemonic invaders into Commoragh, so the Emperor's plan would require the Mechanicum to either strengthen parts of the Webway or it would still be necessary to keep anti-daemon forces around.

 

Basically, it's harder for Chaos to get in there.  That makes it a better place for humanity to be if more and more psykers are being born.  Maybe they don't have to hide in there forever, just until they learn to keep their powers under control, keep the daemons out of their heads, maybe steal a few tricks from the Eldar for safely entering realspace.

[Lucerne]

The Alpha Legion serves themselves first, last, and foremost. Any other motivation or goal is one big question mark.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They seem to be depicted as completely void of any empathy.

[rendingon1+]

Well, they treat their human agents (sparatoi) very well, generally as equals. Sure they are expendable but so are legionaries. Show me the other Legion that relies so much on humans in their opertions,ha!

[Lucerne]

They seem to be depicted as completely void of any empathy.

Depends on the story, but "Alpha Legionaire as psychopathic" is a valid interpretation for them- at least where those outside their Legion are concerned.

[Ascanius]

You're missing a point, though: the Emperor didn't intend for the Primarchs to be scattered across the galaxy. That was Chaos interfering in his plans.

 

OR WAS IT? *thunder crashes, dramatic harpsichord sting*

 

After all, Vengeful Spirit and other sources suggest that the scattering of the Primarchs was part of the bargain the Emperor made with Chaos on Molech.

Edited October 31, 2017 by mhacdebhandia