Musings on the Origins of Ultramarines Lore

[Brother Lunkhead]

...or Roboute Guilliman... who came up with that crazy name and how do you REALLY pronounce it?

 

Hail Brothers and Sisters of Ultramar and the Greater Imperium!

 

After many years of lurking I've come out of the shadows to post my first major topic. Wish me luck. I hope you like it. Here gooooes........

 

Ever since being sucked into GW's mad and wonderful universe of 40k I've had a special interest in the fluff. And I've had an extra special interest in the origins and symbolism infused in the fluff. Some is more obvious than others. Take that crazy mixed up Konrad Curze (call me Night Haunter) and his troop of happy go lucky Night Lords. It doesn't take much of a Google search to see the inspiration of Joseph Conrad and his works ('Heart of Darkness', 'Nostromo', etc.).

 

Then there's your favorite chapter and mine (at least mine) the Ultramarines. If you read just a bit of the fluff it's easy to see the Greco Roman influence and the idea that Ultramar is the Roman Empire with a smiley face. But what about some of the details. Why Ultramar, who came up with the name Marneus Calgar, and how do you really pronounce Roboute Guilliman and how do you know?  Perhaps you asked Matt Ward over a pint at Bugman's. Perhaps Graham McNeill confided in you that Uriel Ventris was really named after his great grand uncle Uriel Ventris McNeill. I'm very interested in any stories you have or any undocumented ideas you may have.

 

I know this seems a rather broad topic, but I suspect there really isn't a lot of information out there. I could be wrong, and if I am...JACK POT!

Just a few rules to remember before we get started:

 

• Ultramarines lore only
• This is not a discussion of actual lore
• origins and ideas behind the lore only
• Official GW sources are great
• Your own personal ideas are great too

Thoughts?...... The floor is yours. 

[Seahawk]

A great topic to discuss! While I don't have any information myself, I look forward to see what others come up with!

[DogWelder]

I can provide some sparse lore about the origin of Ultramar itself if that helps.

 

There are snippets from the Horus Heresy novels that Ultramar is actually a remnant of an intact DAOT human civilization that survived the Long Night. I think in Unremembered Empire Guilliman stated that 'the shipyards of Konor were a gift of his father'. Note that this was pre-unification with the wider Imperium. I found this very interesting. While many of the planets we learn about in the Great-Crusade era were wastelands whose technology level has regressed significantly, the region of space Guilliman was raised in had a fully-functioning spaceship production capability. One so great that it worried the Mechanicus who demanded that Konor be downgraded.

 

In HH: Tempest, Konor is said to be initially a far flung colony of the Mechanicus settled during the DAOT.

 

Given the level of organization and coherency present in Ultramar during the Long Night, I'd speculate that Ultramar itself was the base for human expansion in the Eastern Fringe established by the early human Federation that existed before humanity came under the rule of the Emperor and the Long Night happened. 

[Kinstryfe]

One interesting thing to remember is that current lore (and the entire HH, in fact) is an amazing example of reverse engineering, and I don't see that coming up often. The whole core was just a few paragraphs, and it's now tens of thousands of pages. Pretty impressive. Given that, I assume that a lot of the modern lore is down to having to make the wider ideas mesh with the earlier "facts" of the setting's history.

"Most successors are Ultramarines" created a scenario where the Ultras had to be the biggest Legion, which necessitated an explanation for why and how they were the biggest (good gene seed, huge recruiting area), which meant later fleshing out of Ultramar, Macragge, and later the 500 Worlds.

"The Vth, VIIth, and Xth were the Legions present at the Seige of Terra" led to the need for our Legion to be doing something during the whole leadup, whereas old fluff was just that warpstorms did it. This led to the whole rivalry with the Word Bearers (to likely give both Legions something to do), culminating in Calth and ultimately the entire Imperium Secundus storyline.

So I'd imagine a lot of the recent developments in the HH were due to having relatively little info to go on, and needing to fill in 7 years of time in-story in a way that made sense.

 

No deep insights or personal backstory. I just think it's really cool how much extrapolation and creativity have gone into turning a very vague but concrete concept and timeline (civil war, Legion vs Legion, Istvaan, Eisenstein, Terra, etc) into an epic in a way that's still largely true to the source materials, in multiple phases and expansions, and gave us so much insight into a Legion whose only early traits were really just that they were numerous and orderly.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Aaaannnd we're off!!..... What a great start! Two great thought provoking posts. Thank you DogWelder and Kinstryfe. 

 

DogWelder, I really like your speculation on the origins of Ultramar. I had not thought about Ultramar being the possible base of expansion into the eastern galactic fringe prior to old night. It makes perfect sense, being such an expansive and stable colonized region of the galaxy.

 

Lore reverse engineered from the source material..... Good observation Kinstryfe.

 

This is the kind of thought provoking stuff I was hoping to get, but wasn't sure if I would. Keep it coming 

[Kinstryfe]

Were there other romanesque miniatures and influences prior to the second Calgar mini and his honour guard miniatures? I can't recall any major influences miniatures wise prior to them that had the Greco-Roman themes in them. Prior to those, most Ultramarines I can recall were just the default for space marine miniatures (i.e. that's how they got the nickname "vanilla"). Roboute Guilliman's name doesn't seem to have any clear etymology that points to Latin roots, he doesn't seem to have been the influence. Marneus Calgar dates to '88 with a faux Latin name, and later special characters come 2nd edition continued the trend. So if I had to guess, and this is all speculation, the Greco-Roman aesthetic likely comes from the names made up for 2nd (as illiyan nastise doesn't really ring the bells of Roman etymology), and evolved as a logical leap from there. This was also the period in time, iirc, where the Legions started to get some more in depth attention, and the second round of "big" chapters (Ultramarines, Black Templars) started getting their own aesthetics, and the first round (Angels and Wolves) started getting some more attention. The aesthetic shift may have just been to make them more unique and less of a "vanilla" choice, and expand the Marine aesthetic as a whole, and went on to define the Legion in future lore.

[Brother Lunkhead]

There were several romanesque metal figures prior to the Calgar/Honour Guard set. These were post-Rogue Trader. I'll have to do some research to see what addition they are associated with. I want to say 2nd Ed, but I'm not sure...... just looked it up! I'm wrong (of coarse). There's a Rogue Trader Chapter Master sporting a horse hair crest and wielding a plasma pistol and power gladius. So the greco roman accent was popping up even back then.

[Kinstryfe]

You are, oe course, correct. Looking it up, that mini launched in White Dwarf 133, January '91, and it looks like 2nd edition dropped in '93. So they were already rocking the Roman Aesthetic before 2nd dropped. Looks like he's among the first crop of newer aesthetic marines, and others set aesthetic precident for both Angels and the Wolves. Neat.

[DogWelder]

Little nugget about pre-Ultramarines Ultramar

 

“Two further listening stations are depicted on the screen as Thiel brings up a trinary system map – Oran is marked clearly to the galactic south-east, shielded by the remote stations at Quorus, Protus and Tritus. The three together comprise a half-sickle arc that serves a small region of the coreward aspect of Imperium Secundus.

 

They are distant outriders, early warning posts. Sentries. Some still refer to them as ‘the Old Watchmen of Ultramar’, as they had stood untouched for many decades before the coming of the Legion.”

 

Excerpt From: Various. “Eye of Terra.” iBooks. 

[Seahawk]

Just to reiterate: 

 

• This is not a discussion of actual lore
• origins and ideas behind the lore only
• Official GW sources are great
• Your own personal ideas are great too

 

The OP isn't looking for fluff; he's looking for original sources of inspiration, like the Angels of Death having biblical names and symbolism.

 

One thing I read long ago was about Marneus Calgar. I don't quite remember it right, but basically somewhere in the past a GW staffer came up with the name for his character he made for a campaign. Played with it and enjoyed it so much, GW turned the name into an official character, and here we are. The same goes for many characters we have now, from the 2nd/3rd edition era.

 

 

After some searches, one possible inspiration for Guilliman could be this fellow: Robert Gillman Albert Jackson, the UN's "master of logistics", as it were.

 

Ultramar is a Canadian gas and home fuel retailer, with its head office in Quebec. Given how French that area is, it could be the inspiration behind "Frenchening" the above name.

[GreyCrow]

Very fun topic idea mate ! Trying to reverse engineer is always a cool initiative ! :D

 

My 2 cents coming from a business strategy perspective:

- GW's business is selling minis and minis are always a niche market due to the time investment required (not speaking about money yet!)

- Minis are mainly an expression of creativity. Creative works that are engaging to other people/players require some skillset that are not commonly spread.

- So, in order to increase the appeal of the minis to other audiences, GW designed some Chapters back in the days with strong identity relating to common themes in pop culture (back in RT/2nd ed days, the pop culture reference was crazy higher than today)

- Deeper knowledge of each Chapter/Legion today is more of a fan service for people already highly engaged to the franchise, so like somebody mentionned earlier, they reversed engineered the early formula and expanded while keeping it consistent

 

The archetypes of the early mainstream Chapters are pretty strong, from the lost rememberancer reviews of Codex Imperialis and the 2nd edition codexs:

- Ultramarines : Badass professional soldiers with over the top features, 'The Expendables' of 40k (Ultramar is a nice invention from the name, but come on... Ultra Marines is pretty explicit!)

- Dark Angels : Space Knights

- Blood Angels : Space Vampires

- Space Wolves : Space Vikings

 

Then all the other Chapters came from Ultramarines. Notice how, aside from the above mentionned, no other Legio got unique Codexes with unique units like these 3. This screams later invention from opportunity rather than early invention from design.

[Kinstryfe]

That's the "vanilla syndrome" that's plagued Ultramarines. It doesn't help that the only other chapter eventually given a hugely differing aesthetic is the Templars. Fists? Yellow Ultramarines. Scars? White Ultramarines on lots of bikes, occasional topknot from a chaos model. Iron Hands? Black Ultramarines with the occasional bionic limb. Between that and that integration of some of the Ultra's common aesthetic over time into plastic kits and general Astartes iconography, there's not a lot that remains as truly unique aesthetic. The laurels have long been a standard icon, and even the crests have been spread around via plastic kits making them standard bits.

 

I do wonder if this was an intentional move in part, spending a few editions with the Ultras as the PR Chapter of GW so they wanted them to be "vanilla" as possible.

[GreyCrow]

Very possible indeed !

 

Business case scenario I see is that the BA, DA and SW lines did not perform as efficiently as the Vanilla version in terms of sales to justify churning out so many unique models.

 

I mean when all lines are profitable but some are better than others, you will want to divert investment towards the more profitable.

[Brother Lunkhead]

I'm liking everyone's comments. Good points all 

 

 

Just to reiterate: 

 

• This is not a discussion of actual lore
• origins and ideas behind the lore only
• Official GW sources are great
• Your own personal ideas are great too

 

The OP isn't looking for fluff; he's looking for original sources of inspiration, like the Angels of Death having biblical names and symbolism.

 

One thing I read long ago was about Marneus Calgar. I don't quite remember it right, but basically somewhere in the past a GW staffer came up with the name for his character he made for a campaign. Played with it and enjoyed it so much, GW turned the name into an official character, and here we are. The same goes for many characters we have now, from the 2nd/3rd edition era.

 

 

After some searches, one possible inspiration for Guilliman could be this fellow: Robert Gillman Albert Jackson, the UN's "master of logistics", as it were.

 

Ultramar is a Canadian gas and home fuel retailer, with its head office in Quebec. Given how French that area is, it could be the inspiration behind "Frenchening" the above name.

 

Good point sir. I want to stay away from current fluff so as not to get the topic running out of control or stepping into other peoples topical posts. However we are "musing" here so speculating on fluff origins(i.e.: back to the dark age of technology) is, I think fine. For example:

 

 

I can provide some sparse lore about the origin of Ultramar itself if that helps.

 

There are snippets from the Horus Heresy novels that Ultramar is actually a remnant of an intact DAOT human civilization that survived the Long Night. I think in Unremembered Empire Guilliman stated that 'the shipyards of Konor were a gift of his father'. Note that this was pre-unification with the wider Imperium. I found this very interesting. While many of the planets we learn about in the Great-Crusade era were wastelands whose technology level has regressed significantly, the region of space Guilliman was raised in had a fully-functioning spaceship production capability. One so great that it worried the Mechanicus who demanded that Konor be downgraded.

 

In HH: Tempest, Konor is said to be initially a far flung colony of the Mechanicus settled during the DAOT.

 

Given the level of organization and coherency present in Ultramar during the Long Night, I'd speculate that Ultramar itself was the base for human expansion in the Eastern Fringe established by the early human Federation that existed before humanity came under the rule of the Emperor and the Long Night happened. 

 

 

But ultimately, I bow to the good judgements of our moderators.

 

Robert Gilman and Ultramar Gas and Home Fuel..... SCORE! If it ain't true, it otta' be!

 

Good points and speculation on the practical origins. As I posted elsewhere, the Ultramarines were originally just the PR marines for GW. They are blue, easy to paint, and easily photographed to be plastered in White Dwarf and on model boxes. Fortunately for us they've become much more.

[beefeb]

Roboute guilliman...pronounced ro-boo-tay gilliman on the GW advertising in the run up to his release.

 

Ultramarines are roman legions in nature. Ultramar being a far flung outpost of the old empire of mankind which not only didnt collapse in the fall of the DAOT but which actually thrived.

 

Imagine the roman empire outpost in brittannia thriving after the fall of ancient rome and in fact developing further. That's what i picture in terms of ultramar.

 

I agree with the earlier poster who said they were just blue marines that were vanilla marines but which took on a life of their own. They are attractive to me in that the concept of ultramar is very positive in an otherwise bleak universe. The realm of ultramar do work together and can develop new tech and new ways of thinking.

[Frater Cornelius]

Wow. Robert Gillman and Ultramar Gas. It is save to say that this irreparably ruined UM for me :D

[GreyCrow]

Ultramar Gas even has the blue/yellow scheme..

[phoenix01]

If I remember my latin, caedo is chop or strike or slaughter or murder and sicarii is murderer or assassin. So Cato (sounds like caedo) Sicarius is Slaughter Assassin.

[Seahawk]

Wow. Robert Gillman and Ultramar Gas. It is save to say that this irreparably ruined UM for me :D

Then you were never a fan in the first place. ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Wow. Robert Gillman and Ultramar Gas. It is save to say that this irreparably ruined UM for me

Then you were never a fan in the first place.

 

 

I fail to see the connection...

[robofish7591]

 

 

Wow. Robert Gillman and Ultramar Gas. It is save to say that this irreparably ruined UM for me

Then you were never a fan in the first place.

 

 

I fail to see the connection...

 

Ultramarine fans love the UN and gasoline? Honestly, I don't quite get that one either! 

[Frater Cornelius]

 

 

 

Wow. Robert Gillman and Ultramar Gas. It is save to say that this irreparably ruined UM for me

Then you were never a fan in the first place.

 

 

I fail to see the connection...

 

Ultramarine fans love the UN and gasoline? Honestly, I don't quite get that one either! 

 

 

You, sir, win the thread. Chapeau!

[Seahawk]

I meant you were never an Ultramarines fan if one of their possible origins "irreparably ruins" the faction for you. *shrug*

[Frater Cornelius]

I meant you were never an Ultramarines fan if one of their possible origins "irreparably ruins" the faction for you. *shrug*

 

I give you that. Humour is hard to convey in written language. Of course it did not kill my likings for UM, because it is their achievements, their ideals and deeds and that inspire me, not names or titles. I do not feel any greater because I share the name with Alexander the Great, neither do I feel bad for sharing nationality with some of the greatest mass-murderers in human history. I am sure greater pieces of fiction came from the sillier inspirations. All I wanted to say is that these potential origins for those names are a little jarring and seem out of place when looking at what they produced :D