New codex coming this year...

[Frater Cornelius]

Tell that to my Razorback, that got held up by 3 Brimstones for several turns Oo

[swordofmandulis]

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

Tactically, I would be happy to force my opponent to burn CPs. The unit disengaging would double it's job. In theory it is effectively removing additional resources from my opponent during my turn.

 

I've tried a lot of things to make assault armies work for BA, and I constantly go back to more tanks and shooting.

 

It's why I advocate drop pods with devastators or sternguard with stormbolters.

[Are Verlo]

I think disengage is just fine as long as we have reliable ways to reach close combat.

Let us say we can manage to get 3 units within 1" of enemy units. We can strike some blows, they strike back and then they have to fall back with 3 units (or more if you multi-charged). This is fine by me. 3 units can not shoot (or have to ordered/have the fly keyword) and we can strive to attack units that suffer from falling back.

 

On the other hand, if you "slingshot" 1 large expensive unit out of tactical reserves, and spend CP to reroll 1 dice on the charge move, then you are a sitting duck after fall back.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think disengage is just fine as long as we have reliable ways to reach close combat.

Let us say we can manage to get 3 units within 1" of enemy units. We can strike some blows, they strike back and then they have to fall back with 3 units (or more if you multi-charged). This is fine by me. 3 units can not shoot (or have to ordered/have the fly keyword) and we can strive to attack units that suffer from falling back.

 

On the other hand, if you "slingshot" 1 large expensive unit out of tactical reserves, and spend CP to reroll 1 dice on the charge move, then you are a sitting duck after fall back.

I will say that's what I found to be the best option. MSU assault units. The problem I almost always have is needing to deep strike/alpha assault. This gets expensive and I feel 1+Storm Ravens are almost mandatory to keep you in certain games alongside 3+ units of troops so you don't get outscored.

[Blindhamster]

yeah, the fall back mechanic is only horrible when you charge a single target in a turn, line things up to pull of 3-4 charges and suddenly if the opponent falls back he cannot shoot with a chunk of his army. Which in turn means he's more likely to just stay in combat and fight, hoping to do some damage that way. Then we could fall back in our turn.

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

Tell that to my Razorback, that got held up by 3 Brimstones for several turns Oo

Exactly this. Lots of armies have access to cheap chaff and can pull these sorts of shenanigans, even without cheap troops they could just keep charging a rhino or whatever at your razorback all game.

[Indefragable]

Also, plenty a half-skilled commander falls back with unit A and blows you to Hel with unit B.

[TheHarrower]

 

 

My cousin plays white scars. Against my Tyranids he has literally never jumped out of combat and reassaulted, because I bounce out in my turn and shoot the piss out of him and his assault gets overwatches, I rinse and repeat.

 

I've only ever shot pistols once in 8th, it was when I had a unit that couldn't fly completely encircled so I could shoot in the shooting phase. pistols and assault after falling back is quite rubbish, unless you force yourself to be charged with a throw away unit.

 

Which marines don't really have to begin with...

I guess I don’t follow. I’ll agree that pistols aren’t super useful, but saying your cousin doesn’t jump out because he doesn’t have a chance makes no sense. If that was the case that means you never charge and playing Nids that seems odd to me.

I don't. I play shooty nids with smite/mortal wound spam. The only units I ever assault with are for mop up duties or assisinations from leapers/death Leaper.

 

 

Shooty Nids? Heresy! That makes more sense tho.

[Panzer]

Also, plenty a half-skilled commander falls back with unit A and blows you to Hel with unit B.

That's why you should charge with multiple units so he has less of those B units to shoot you with. Having only few melee units or letting them charge one by one was never a good idea, you need to threaten the opponent on multiple spots at the same time. Yeah melee is weaker then shooting and partially because it's harder to pull off, but I don't think that falling back is THE reason for it.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

Tactically, I would be happy to force my opponent to burn CPs. The unit disengaging would double it's job. In theory it is effectively removing additional resources from my opponent during my turn.

 

I've tried a lot of things to make assault armies work for BA, and I constantly go back to more tanks and shooting.

 

It's why I advocate drop pods with devastators or sternguard with stormbolters.

 

 

Isn't this a bit like saying "I love it when Floyd Mayweather punches me in face! I'm forcing him to burn energy/calories and tire himself out! Ha!"

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

 

My cousin plays white scars. Against my Tyranids he has literally never jumped out of combat and reassaulted, because I bounce out in my turn and shoot the piss out of him and his assault gets overwatches, I rinse and repeat.

 

I've only ever shot pistols once in 8th, it was when I had a unit that couldn't fly completely encircled so I could shoot in the shooting phase. pistols and assault after falling back is quite rubbish, unless you force yourself to be charged with a throw away unit.

 

Which marines don't really have to begin with...

I guess I don’t follow. I’ll agree that pistols aren’t super useful, but saying your cousin doesn’t jump out because he doesn’t have a chance makes no sense. If that was the case that means you never charge and playing Nids that seems odd to me.

I don't. I play shooty nids with smite/mortal wound spam. The only units I ever assault with are for mop up duties or assisinations from leapers/death Leaper.

Shooty Nids? Heresy! That makes more sense tho.

Exocrines, dakkafex, hive tyrants, hive crone, and all the smite spam disagrees. Not to rooster about, but the list is undefeated. Really leaves me wanting more from our precious Blood Angels.

 

Edit: @9×19 I play a competitive Nid list with heavy CPs to compensate for having an index until recently. Now that list has pnly gotten stronger. If you multi assault my block of termagaunts I'm activating caustic blood. If you are reassaulting a big gribbly, chances are it's T7(8)[9] by this point, you would burn a CP and I'm still going to disengage and smite. Followed by shooting and more smites.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Brother Crimson]

It's a mix of things that makes melee harder:

 

1. Falling back

2. Harder to stack buff on melee units than ranged.

3. Melee threat range is limited ie. about 18 inch with JP units, many ranged units can fire 30" +.

4. "buffer" units that prevent charges to interesting targets.

 

To adress that:

1. We need a stratagem to punish units from falling back. 

2. A good army wide chapter tactic  (like reroll /+1 to wound/).

3. A way to have better deep strike charge % or better movement overall.

4. An ability to disengage and charge would help for this part.

 

 

IMO if they make those changes we can have a very potent assault based army. 

 

I'm quite sure we can get a few of those issues fixed in the codex.

 

Look at tyranid adaptation:

You have the choice to:

- Reroll 1 to wounds or

- Reroll charges or

- Reroll hits or

- Disengage/charge with advance bonus

 

Each of those tactics resolves at least one of the issue of close-combat. Sure you only get one but it helps a lot.

 

In addition they have a lot of ways to get more movement:

 

Onslaught Psychic power

Stratagem to move twice at the cost of potential mortal wounds on 1. 

Lictors can fall back and charge for 1 CP.

Stratagem to move again after they destroy a unit.

 

They did it right once they can probably do it right again.

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

 

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

Tactically, I would be happy to force my opponent to burn CPs. The unit disengaging would double it's job. In theory it is effectively removing additional resources from my opponent during my turn.

 

I've tried a lot of things to make assault armies work for BA, and I constantly go back to more tanks and shooting.

 

It's why I advocate drop pods with devastators or sternguard with stormbolters.

 

 

 

Uh..if we had the ability to spend a CP to pile and and fight then consolidate after that would be well worth it. More than likely you are either wiping the unit attempting the fall back and/or by piling in and consolidating you are now tying up other units. I'd happily spend a CP to neutralize more units in my opponent's turn.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

 

 

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

Tactically, I would be happy to force my opponent to burn CPs. The unit disengaging would double it's job. In theory it is effectively removing additional resources from my opponent during my turn.

 

I've tried a lot of things to make assault armies work for BA, and I constantly go back to more tanks and shooting.

 

It's why I advocate drop pods with devastators or sternguard with stormbolters.

Uh..if we had the ability to spend a CP to pile and and fight then consolidate after that would be well worth it. More than likely you are either wiping the unit attempting the fall back and/or by piling in and consolidating you are now tying up other units. I'd happily spend a CP to neutralize more units in my opponent's turn.

Most competitive builds out dice marines. ie Imperial Soup, Nid horde, Eldar and Imps are all superior to marines outside of T7 razorback spam/storm raven spam which goes back to imperial soup.

 

I haven't seen many melee centric marine lists that can hang in the meta game. That Raven Guard all primaris army did okay I guess. War zone Atlanta might be a good outlier to see if melee armies do anything. I doubt they will though.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Panda_Saurus_Rex]

 

 

 

I would love a stratagem something a long the lines of..Use when an enemy unit falls back from combat, before the unit moves, one unit engaged with the enemy unit may immediately pile in and fight as if it were the fight phase.

 

just having this in the back pocket will give the enemy commander 2nd thoughts about falling back.

Tactically, I would be happy to force my opponent to burn CPs. The unit disengaging would double it's job. In theory it is effectively removing additional resources from my opponent during my turn.

 

I've tried a lot of things to make assault armies work for BA, and I constantly go back to more tanks and shooting.

 

It's why I advocate drop pods with devastators or sternguard with stormbolters.

Uh..if we had the ability to spend a CP to pile and and fight then consolidate after that would be well worth it. More than likely you are either wiping the unit attempting the fall back and/or by piling in and consolidating you are now tying up other units. I'd happily spend a CP to neutralize more units in my opponent's turn.

Most competitive builds out dice marines. ie Imperial Soup, Nid horde, Eldar and Imps are all superior to marines outside of T7 razorback spam/storm raven spam which goes back to imperial soup.

 

I haven't seen many melee centric marine lists that can hang in the meta game. That Raven Guard all primaris army did okay I guess. War zone Atlanta might be a good outlier to see if melee armies do anything. I doubt they will though.

 

 

 

You are right that melee-centric armies are not doing well nor will they, however, if you have one deadly melee unit that can go places this helps. Example: in my BA tournament list I run a 15-man Death Company squad. I have other threats for my opponent to shoot at so they don't always try to target the DC out and I get them in combat reliably. That one unit being able to pile in, fight, and consolidate in YOUR turn would be well worth spending only 1 out of 9 CP.

[Karhedron]

 

Break from combat and charge sounds great to me...

That is if we gain any benefits from charging... otherwise it's just more overwatch. Still I could see some useful situational purposes.

 

I think you are underestimating the benefits.

 

Breaking off and charging again opens up some interesting possibilities. We have already seem sling-shoting as one valid suggestion but I think we are overlooking shooting.

 

Any of our CC units can break off from combat, the rest of the army can shoot at their opponents while they are left standing around and then the assaulters can pile back in and get to strike first again plus gain any charge benefits that they may get. If our troops have jump packs (as many of our units do) they can join in the shooting.

 

Far from being penalised for withdrawing from combat like most armies, we will actually benefit from it and can use it to our advantage.

 

Is it super-powerful? Probably not but I think it will be more useful than a lot of people give it credit for and clever players will be able to find ways to pull off lots of tricks with it. Now out close-ranged fire support units like Baals and HF Tac squads have a purpose. Our elite assault units duck out of combat breifly, the fire support light up the targets and the assault units dive right back in. Now we have a way to burn through chaff units like Conscripts, Boyz mobz and fearless Nid swarms. Plus our elite units will be very hard to tarpit.

[Silverson]

 

 

Break from combat and charge sounds great to me...

That is if we gain any benefits from charging... otherwise it's just more overwatch. Still I could see some useful situational purposes.

I think you are underestimating the benefits.

 

Breaking off and charging again opens up some interesting possibilities. We have already seem sling-shoting as one valid suggestion but I think we are overlooking shooting.

 

Any of our CC units can break off from combat, the rest of the army can shoot at their opponents while they are left standing around and then the assaulters can pile back in and get to strike first again plus gain any charge benefits that they may get. If our troops have jump packs (as many of our units do) they can join in the shooting.

 

Far from being penalised for withdrawing from combat like most armies, we will actually benefit from it and can use it to our advantage.

 

Is it super-powerful? Probably not but I think it will be more useful than a lot of people give it credit for and clever players will be able to find ways to pull off lots of tricks with it. Now out close-ranged fire support units like Baals and HF Tac squads have a purpose. Our elite assault units duck out of combat breifly, the fire support light up the targets and the assault units dive right back in. Now we have a way to burn through chaff units like Conscripts, Boyz mobz and fearless Nid swarms. Plus our elite units will be very hard to tarpit.

My biggest issue with being able to disengage from combat on an almost army wide scale is that it doesn’t fit blood angels fluff. We are meant to be blood crazed slaughterers not gorilla warfare experts (tho now I have typed this out I do recal a Chaplin using gorilla warfare using death company lol).

 

I have always seen us a close combat power house fluff speaking that can fight toe to toe with our foes not needing to flee from a combat to re Ingage them.

[Palwatch]

Has anyone actually been able to verify this +1 charge rumour?

[neonmole]

No, it’s a rumour that came bundled with a bunch DA rumours - none of which are very credible in my view... the Lion part in particular screams wish list to me. What a conincidence that “rumours” start to appear the day after the internet is aware that there is something to be rumouring about!

[Crimson Ghost IX]

 

 

 

Break from combat and charge sounds great to me...

That is if we gain any benefits from charging... otherwise it's just more overwatch. Still I could see some useful situational purposes.

I think you are underestimating the benefits.

 

Breaking off and charging again opens up some interesting possibilities. We have already seem sling-shoting as one valid suggestion but I think we are overlooking shooting.

 

Any of our CC units can break off from combat, the rest of the army can shoot at their opponents while they are left standing around and then the assaulters can pile back in and get to strike first again plus gain any charge benefits that they may get. If our troops have jump packs (as many of our units do) they can join in the shooting.

 

Far from being penalised for withdrawing from combat like most armies, we will actually benefit from it and can use it to our advantage.

 

Is it super-powerful? Probably not but I think it will be more useful than a lot of people give it credit for and clever players will be able to find ways to pull off lots of tricks with it. Now out close-ranged fire support units like Baals and HF Tac squads have a purpose. Our elite assault units duck out of combat breifly, the fire support light up the targets and the assault units dive right back in. Now we have a way to burn through chaff units like Conscripts, Boyz mobz and fearless Nid swarms. Plus our elite units will be very hard to tarpit.

My biggest issue with being able to disengage from combat on an almost army wide scale is that it doesn’t fit blood angels fluff. We are meant to be blood crazed slaughterers not gorilla warfare experts (tho now I have typed this out I do recal a Chaplin using gorilla warfare using death company lol).

 

I have always seen us a close combat power house fluff speaking that can fight toe to toe with our foes not needing to flee from a combat to re Ingage them.

 

 

I see your point, but respectfully disagree on manuever being unfluffy. I think it can be seen as very fluffy.

While we should be thought of as doing well in a protracted slugfest certainly, I think a shock and awe blitz works well too.

 

Our experts excel at CQC assault, our support units would likely excel at firing into that ongoing engagement as it develops and units arrive etc. 

Bouncing in and out let's us do that. I would like to see it in the codex.

 

Our boys in red engage, then fade for shooting, and charge again until things are decided.

Possibly using jump packs etc to penetrate further into enemy formations and so forth.

 

I can totally see charge, regroup, charge as a valid tactic of ours and completely fluffy = always be charging.

 

I think it is in how you choose to see and describe the re-deploy:

 

Is it -flee -run away -scared off -being sneaky -etc ...

 

or is it hit, re-deploy, hit again, reassess and press with excellent support fire opportunity.

Like Napoleanic Cav perhaps or WWII Armoured spearhead blitz.

Into, over and thru. Disrupt and Destroy.

 

Anyhow some thoughts.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Fahlnor]

How about the Dark Eldar Wyches special rule?

 

[Damon Nightman]

I roll too poorly to win many roll offs...

 

I like the idea though!

Edited November 11, 2017 by Brother Lemartes

[utilityzero]

That should be a rule of the game, not a special rule of a unit.

 

I want an army wide special rule that makes casualties caused in melee count double in battleshock or over rule nonsense rules that make every army out there fearless.

[Fahlnor]

Well, people are repeatedly saying they want a rule that makes it harder for opposing units to drop out of combat. I was just making the point that there's already a rule which does exactly that.

 

I think it's really difficult to look at an army rule in isolation from the actual army itself, including units, synergies, warlord traits and stratagems. That point has already been made and I think we should definitely take it on board. Hypothesising an army-wide rule without having any context to put it just can't really get us anywhere.