Codex Chaos Daemons first in 2018

[radionausea]

This is gong to sound odd/cheeky but are there other forums for daemons?

This subsection feels a bit dead and I think its because Daemons don't really fit in here (on a forum that's for Humanity Resplendent). I don't even expect a lot of chat on here after the codex drops.

[bozo69pd]

There will be chatter after daemon codex drops. For how long I do not know... 8th edition feels like the bantering phase after codex falls off a couple weeks later. With increased simplicity comes decreased depth of play/mechanics.

[WarriorFish]

Daemons have been part of the B&C for a long time, they fit in just fine (and you seem to have missed all the xenos around too ). As bozo said Daemons have the "index problem" currently, but I think this is further compounded by how all the keyword stuff works along with the nature of Daemons. You don't get four distinct elements in any other codex after all! This is why I am given to believing the rumour that the codex will have lots of change coming (as far as you can believe rumours that is).

 

That said; be part of the solution. I've just finished work for the year (or would be, if they'd leave me alone... not a great start to holiday ) and will be getting back to my Daemons shortly

[Commissar K.]

Im always open for Daemon chatter but the honest truth of it is that currently they require a mix of other stuff for sure to be viable at all. Now wether or not this will dissapear is unknown offcourse but I think what has bugging people too is the massive gaps between Greater Daemon releases. We have some great infantry, cavalry and upcomming beast/war engines but other than that Daemons isn't really fleshed out much and really has nothing to change either in terms of wargear.

More chatter should come soon for sure. I also hope that mono God Armies, Daemons mixed with CSM will be a very cool addition too. We'll just have to wait and see.
Currently I think there are two common thaken units from Daemons and that's about it for their Troops, being Plaguebearers and Brimstone Horrors, they are cheap and they'll stick around which is excellent. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Stross]

I have an idea here, don't know, if someone rose this question before...

 

But don't you found it a bit stupid, if in Demon Codex demons will not have the special rule about "summonning+stratagems"?

Lets just say, you have a pure csm army and you put some points in summoning. You summon demons and... alright, why should they have their god traits? I get that. But for current rules we will not going to use stratagems on them, unless we pay for a patrol daemon detachment at least. 

So, my question in that case will be: why even play with summonning? Of course, some soup lists even with summonning will be great. But if I want to play CSM and summon some Daemons for reinforsments... then I just can't do this at all, it will be like now, only some units can be buffed at least. 

 

But such thoughts are not... optimistic.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Stross

[Mileposter]

I'm willing to bet money that the Daemons Codex addresses summoning. At the very very least, it will repeat the rules on it and nothing may change... But it likely will change in the codex.

 

Though for Stratagems? You likely will not be able to use Daemons Stratagems on CSM summoned daemons - for largely the same reasons that a CSM Daemon prince doesn't have the same traits or abilities that a Daemons one does.

[Stross]

hough for Stratagems? You likely will not be able to use Daemons Stratagems on CSM summoned daemons - for largely the same reasons that a CSM Daemon prince doesn't have the same traits or abilities that a Daemons one does. 

 

I prefer to think that despite similar stats they are different units. 

But what will be the point for summoning in pure CSM army then? I tested summonng and now it is good. But if you leave 235 points for 30 bloodletters, this is not going to work that well, especially without rerolls or any good synergy with the rest of CSM.

Word Bearers at least can really increase their potential, if demons would be allowed to use stratagems without detachments. 

 

Or we just going to throw at least 120 points for patrol detachment. Not so balanced....

[Mileposter]

I think most would argue that in matched play, Summoning isn't useful. If you're paying points for things anyway it's easier to start things on the table. I understand the WHY of this being the case, but it is hard to argue that it hasn't hurt the way summoning gets used.

 

I think the answer to your question - What will be the point for summoning in pure CSM armies - is going to be answered by the mechanics of Summoning rather than synergy with any stratagems.

[bozo69pd]

I have been tempted to use summoning a couple of times, then just pass because of the whole being unable to move thing. However being able to ignore detachment slots and DS them in is nice.

 

Also in regards to difficulty summoning, alot of FW daemons grant summoning rerolls.

[Commissar K.]

Well what I expect is one simple Stratagem for probably cost 1 that basically removes the whole issue with possibly failing to summon or require to be standing still in order to summon. If such a Stratagem would appear I deem it very likely that it will look for a Chaos Mark (Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle, Slaanesh) and then automatically pass the roll usually required to summon. This makes the whole aspect a whole lot more powerful but also limited at the same time. The thing is though, for many lists this will be sufficient enough to at least consider some summonning and for general full Chaos Daemons armies it's a go to Stratagem much like Veterans of the Long War is for us. This Stratagem would basically just require a Chaos Character with said Mark and then have it all occur as ideally done.

In addition I think that summonning can be really good as long as it's close to regular deepstriking. Which would be possible with above suggested Stratagem. However due to the quantity of models involved for Chaos Daemons and the cheap costs attached to it all I fully understand why GW wants to have the regular summons be limited.

What I also hope is that there will actually be some additional extra ties to CSM. It leads to soups but as before the narrative is riddled with this anyway. There is still one very simple advantage to playing regular or other Chaos Space Marines and that's the whole ranged aspect, where Daemons have very little of and this is indeed a massive downside. In reality only Khorne would have a massive overlap with it's Daemonic counter part but as a Khorne player I care very little about that because it also should come down to choice and choice doesn't mean one should be strictly better as the other.

So like their mortal counterparts I still expect Chaos Daemons to:
- Have Khorne be very melee orientated and basically wonderful against MEQ
- Have Tzeentch be very Psycic orientated and basically have the rules to ignore Psycic limitations (they ignore this in AoS too)
- Have Nurgle be very attrition orientated with a side effect of being great against non-MEQ hordes
- Have Slaanesh be very speed orientated and basically wonderful against anything as long as you roll sufficient 6's ;) 

- What I hope for the Greater Daemons is that they allow Morale to be ignored within their bubble. I hope they will be a centerpiece, only slightly inferior to Daemonic Primarchs. 
- On the other side I expect old skool Daemonic Instability to kick in when Daemons need to make Morale tests out of that bubble.
- Additional Daemons ideally re-appear under different circumstances as they do now. But that's just my biased opinion on rewarding low rolls. I personally would love them to grow as a unit based on X models killed (this is where the God numbers could kick in). This would furthermore allow Tzeentch to go nuts with Psycic abilities because 9 kills in melee isn't their regular virtue. 
- What I also hope is that God numbers will do something for Daemons. I completely understand why they removed it for Mortals but for Daemons such things still make some sence, not that they are counting but their patrons are. I would love to see a +1 on a summonning roll if the unit has the specific size expected.
- Daemons will likely be able to soup up aswell but lead to mono-god armies generally for CSM to be as viable as mono-chapter. In some cases they are allready this strong but not for all.

I think that Greater Daemons with their Artefacts will and should indeed be capable to dance with Primarchs. This is a very dangerous and strong prospect but based on narrative this is what the Greater Daemons do. Everybody remembers the battle of Sanguinius against Bloodthirster afterall. The newest Greater Daemons also size up well enough and I would mind it if because of the boosts you usually will only see one per 2K, max 2 per 2K. Have them please be the center piece.

Lastly BoLS also had a nice article and I think that if we're going to see throwbacks to older rules they will narratively speaking make sence. Link: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/12/goatboys-monday-thoughts-daemon-thoughts.html
Effects of Warp Rifts and Blood Tithes can easily be included under Stratagems and quite frankly will. No need to worry about CSM being able to thake all Statagems also, I'm quite certain that all but the Daemonic summonning Stratagem will be focused on Chaos Daemons. As before I hope there is a small gift for Word Bearers in there too but I wouldn't set my hopes too high.

 

[Panzer]

I think what I'm mostly looking forward to is the potential changes to summoning since GW knows it's a lackluster mechanic for matched play right now and they love giving armies a tasty rules update with their 8th edition Codex. It would also be an important change for CSM and DG player unless they change the wording in a way so those can't use summoning but I doubt that.

 

Slaanesh Seeker could need a second look as well considering they are just more expensive Daemonettes right now....however I hope they don't change anything about the Fiends of Slaanesh (except for their model eventually lol). Those already seem to be in a rather finished state and their rules aren't bad at all!

[Blackarmor_redtruth]

I wouldn't count on things staying mono-god. Tyranid players thought the same thing and now it is nothing but mixed hive fleets all over the place. It will be interesting to see how the old animosity between gods will play out if this does hold true.

 

On shooting, while I can appreciate many of the above feelings of purity in melee (or save the shootings for the turkeys), and along this vane if Slaanesh were to get (laser) whips to keep their theme, the amount of change needed to keep us pure melee force would be such a huge set of changes that everyone would cry foul.

 

I would like to add a guess on a third front, that of possessed vehicles. Similar to genestealer cult (GSC) getting AM stuff, I can see deamons getting a corrupted version of many vehicles with say, Machine Spirit, to corrupt. Makes us branch out (and maybe pick up another army >> $$@GW) but would keep in some of the fluff.

 

For any of the above, or for any version that is completely different from what we all speculate upon, I'm excited for change. Just not the lord of change. Turkey!

[Commissar K.]

I think mono god will still be an option but as usual not the most competitive one. The same applies to SM and CSM for going mono Chapter or Legion so this should not come at a suprise at all. I'm also looking very forward on how Heralds will be designed this time. One of the issues that presented itself before Chapter Approved was the cost of cheap Psykers and well maby just maby Chaos Daemons will keep that anyway.

Despite some cries I do think Chaos Daemons will largely remain melee orientated though. The simple reason being the models. Shooting is nice and all but if visually there is nothing that suggests as such I don't think we will see a ton of it. On the other side what I do hope will also make an appearance in Chaos Daemons is ofcourse the Daemon Engines. They are designed for 40K and could very well be implemented and indeed also benifit in one way or another from the presence of Heralds now.

Possessed vehicles would be awesome for sure, unfortunatly though there is nothing in the Rumour Engine that suggests as such and aside from additional Nurgle Daemons I don't really expect a ton of new kits to be released with Codex Chaos Daemons. Even a new Keeper of Secrets is a hope I have but also one I doubt will be realized. I do agree though that places left to flesh out most certainly include possessed vehicles of the old. It could even be a really cool concept to have these act as a character in terms of summonning Daemons.

Im looking very much forward to it all too. I think the biggest change will be that GW finally designes the Greater Daemons to be the main point for 2K armies. Not only would it be fitting it's what most players want to do with their Daemons if they do not mix it up with CSM or Heretics. 

[WarriorFish]

I think the old animosity between the gods is long gone, at best the odd rule or some flavour text probably now? Given how different the daemons are in comparison to other armies it feels a bit of a bad deal to push for soup lists. I could dabble in Tzeentchian stuff perhaps but have little interest in the rest and I'm sure I'm not alone in similar thoughts. Possessed vehicles is another cop out so I'd rather not have that as a plaster either

[Excessus]

Maybe they'll have it like other codexes and they'll have god-specific bonuses for detachments from one god and stuff?

[Mileposter]

We already have access to Daemon Engines from Chaos Space Marines (Thank you shared keyword!), so maybe the Codex will just make that official-like, similar to the Daemon Prince? I don't foresee them doing 'Possessed' vehicles or anything like that with the Engines already available.

[DuskRaider]

Technically Daemons can take any Daemon Engine, so anything from C:CSM, C:DG, or FW Index.

[elbianc]

i've been playing my Emperor's Children with daemons, i have 40 daemonettes at the moment, and damn they are good! but the main problem is that they lock the caracters in place for at least one turn, and my daemon prince with wings dont like to stay still! same goes with my lord with jump pack (that i like do deep strike with melta raptors) or sorcerer that goes with units of 10 noise marines to buff them up....

 

i like to delay the summoning of the daemonettes, so i can block important enemy units that deep strike or get too close (terminators hate them), one thing that they could do woud be to change the summoning distances, eg. 12'' if you dont move and 6'' if you do, or 18'' and take d3 mortal wounds ( sacret numbers of slaanesh :)), or something like that

[Lord Abaia]

Be careful with assumptions about Daemons armies being able to take CSM units with the Daemon keyword. Check what the Designer's Commentary says about the difference between keywords and faction keywords during list building. If there are bonuses or stratagems to unlock from having a detachment where everything has the Daemon faction keyword it would be invalidated by taking say a Maulerfiend or some Warp Talons, which have a Daemon in the keyword list, but not in the faction keyword list. Right now it's not an issue because there are no benefits for taking a Daemon faction keyword detachment... yet.

[Mileposter]

Clarification: Daemon isn't the keyword that allows us to have fun sharing things, but rather Chaos.

 

For sure that with the Codex dropping, there'll be bonuses akin to Tactics, Doctrines, Attributes, etc. that are keyed to either only Daemons or Khorne/Slaanesh/etc.

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, at this point there are no army traits to lose. That will most likely change, although things like the Plague Hulk, Blood Slaughterer, Blight Drone and Brass Scorpion in the Chaos Index should still be fine.

[WarriorFish]

It'd be nice if the Daemons codex could play with faction keywords a little, so appropriately aligned CSM can join the party too. There is precedent in the Guard codex too so it doesn't need to be fancy, just let the two armies keep their own bits and away we go I'm hoping we can hear some tidbits soon.

 

I've been playing with Battlescribe to generate some CSM and Daemon lists, give me something to aim for (though I'm naturally hoping for "room" for additions come 2018 ). Couldn't quite muster points for wings on the DP for example

[Commissar K.]

I think soup is the logical outcome but also believe in Mark bubbles and Mark Stratagems. Really simple and to the point. Going mono means more bubbles of effect and to me thats cool too.

 

Hope to see a Warhammer Community Daemon article this month too, would be nice to know some direction.

[DuskRaider]

BattleScribe is kinda dumb when it comes to FW stuff for some reason. They have Mamon and a couple other things in there, but no Blight Drone or Plague Hulk, let alone the CSM options...

[Panzer]

I can only speak for myself and I wouldn't mix different gods daemon units in my army. Then again I'm not primarily a daemon player and would mainly use them paired with Emperor's Children anyway. ^^