Get Ready For Chapter Approved

[Charlo]

So question: Are these points changes reflected in the units' Power Levels or is PL being left unchanged despite the power of these units being reevaluated?

Power levels are rough and only an approximation anyway - meant for beginners,casual games or maybe MASSIVE ones (Apoc uses PL). All gear is free in PL, losing a couple points here and there doesn't really reflect that much.

[Frater Cornelius]

I think they handled the Guilliman thing rather well. Instead of bombing his price it, they increased it by a bit as well as most of the their overused units like Ravens and Razorbacks. Individually, not a deal breaker, but the Guilliman partking lot is no longer as great, seeing as they took a 120-150 point increase along the way, as did flyer spam lists.

 

Hm, but according to Dakka, it is time to collectively burn our armies and be done with GW forever. To be fair, GW is trying to reach out and balance things. I feel like this is a very good start. I am happy with the attempt :)

[Panzer]

I think they handled the Guilliman thing rather well. Instead of bombing his price it, they increased it by a bit as well as most of the their overused units like Ravens and Razorbacks. Individually, not a deal breaker, but the Guilliman partking lot is no longer as great, seeing as they took a 120-150 point increase along the way, as did flyer spam lists.

 

Hm, but according to Dakka, it is time to collectively burn our armies and be done with GW forever. To be fair, GW is trying to reach out and balance things. I feel like this is a very good start. I am happy with the attempt

I'm happy they tried but I see lots of work in the execution to be honest. ^^

[Athrawes]

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

[M@verik115]

I know this may be my specific problem, but I have got 8 armies. Each army has a codex, and rules, and points costs and now FAQ's and chapter approved points changes. 
Its really becoming so hard just keeping track of everything that I am very close to just shelving all of my stuff and concentrating on one army. 8th started out so well, but honestly the accounting involved is driving me insane. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

Because GK are fundamentally different from any other Chapter in the Imperium?

Not any more we're not. 10 brotherhoods, same codex design.

 

Unless by fundamentally different you mean denied all the stuff every other chapter gets for no reason. ;)

They follow the base organizational structure, but their mission and training is very different, as is their equipment. They frankly should have never grown beyond rentable squads for other Imperium armies, but oh well.

Just like the Deathwatch? Or Space Wolves? Or either Bangel/Dangel?

 

I'd like me some frag cannons, thunderfire cannons, grav guns, frost guns, angelus bolters and the nightshroud.

 

It's not like anyone else has different equipment.

 

Heck the GK most used equipment is the humble Storm Bolter. Common to all Marine Chapters.

 

bit as well as most of the their overused units like Ravens and Razorbacks.

Except they did this for all armies. Even those that only have razorbacks and ravens as options...

 

Cant really claim them to be overused. I'd you have nothing else to use in thier place.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Panzer]

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

I think the reasoning is pretty easy to spot there:

 - No super LoW in regular matched games

 - no change for apocalypse games were PL are used anyway

 - still possible to use in narrative games if you decide to use PL

[Jolemai]

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

Indeed. Would be good to some idea as to why from the Dev team but...

 

Take the Revenant Titan as an example. What possible case can be made for increasing its cost? I have to enquire as to the playtesting results.

[Montford]

I feel the point increases on many of the FW units force them into very large point games where they are more fitting. I'm generally happy with what's been spoiled to this point and my name is on the list for a copy at my FLGS.

[Athrawes]

 

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

I think the reasoning is pretty easy to spot there:

 - No super LoW in regular matched games

 - no change for apocalypse games were PL are used anyway

 - still possible to use in narrative games if you decide to use PL

 

 

That is very possible, but why do it this way? It throws all semblance of balance out the window.

 

If they didn't want to include titans or mega super heavies in standard games why let them be there at all, instead of a spiteful points increase? 

 

The group that I play with prefers points (as do I for as balanced a game as possible), so increasing points like this as you suggest, just to prove a point about restricting Super heavies, says that balance doesn't matter.

 

7th edition wasnt perfect, neither is 8th, but at least in 7th edition I could bring things like titans and Stormbirds and create a reasonably balanced apoc game.

[Plaguecaster]

 

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

Indeed. Would be good to some idea as to why from the Dev team but...

 

Take the Revenant Titan as an example. What possible case can be made for increasing its cost? I have to enquire as to the playtesting results.

Maybe they are trying to prevent most FW LOWs ( but not their's obviously) from being used in regular games and trying to encourage / force people to use Open play for larger apocalypse games where they don't have the extra cost, though if that's the case I wish they did that to all LOWs or just add a rule preventing them from being used in regular games (or a limit like only 1 per 2k points)

 

Or they just hate FW units in general and have some sort of secret agenda to sabatoge them :D

Edited November 25, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Mitchverr]

 

Or they just hate FW units in general and have some sort of secret agenda to sabatoge them

 

 

Given the hit on the salamander command vehicle, I wouldnt be suprised lol.

[Panzer]

 

 

My heart breaks over things like the Stormbird, and most FW Vehicles.

 

It went from 650 points (without weapons) to being 2000 points (again without weapons), yet it will remain Power Level 50

 

I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind most of these massive points swings.

I think the reasoning is pretty easy to spot there:

 - No super LoW in regular matched games

 - no change for apocalypse games were PL are used anyway

 - still possible to use in narrative games if you decide to use PL

 

 

That is very possible, but why do it this way? It throws all semblance of balance out the window.

 

If they didn't want to include titans or mega super heavies in standard games why let them be there at all, instead of a spiteful points increase? 

 

The group that I play with prefers points (as do I for as balanced a game as possible), so increasing points like this as you suggest, just to prove a point about restricting Super heavies, says that balance doesn't matter.

 

7th edition wasnt perfect, neither is 8th, but at least in 7th edition I could bring things like titans and Stormbirds and create a reasonably balanced apoc game.

 

I agree but that's the only explanation I have and it makes enough sense no matter how dumb it is to do it this way. A new keyword to exclude them all at once from matched play or a new FOC slot + fitting detachment for such units that is excluded from matched play would've been the much smoother choice to handle it imo. ^^

[Gentlemanloser]

So much for PL being around 1/20 of the points cost.

[Athrawes]

@sfPanzer: I understand, and I didn't mean to sound like I was raging at you.

 

I love 8th edition, and if the goal was to discourage the use of Lords of war in matched play by heavily increasing their points costs that would be totally fine.

 

But from Chapter approved, it is clear they only did this towards FW LoW, not GW. 

 

When an Astra militarum player can bring a GW Baneblade to a matched play game for literally HALF the cost of a FW fellblade, it destroys any semblance of balance.

 

That is what I find sad.

 

Not that we recieved points increases, but that it appears to arbitrarily penalize people with Forgeworld models.

[Ciler]

I know this may be my specific problem, but I have got 8 armies. Each army has a codex, and rules, and points costs and now FAQ's and chapter approved points changes. 

Its really becoming so hard just keeping track of everything that I am very close to just shelving all of my stuff and concentrating on one army. 8th started out so well, but honestly the accounting involved is driving me insane. 

The ideal solution for that would be (and it may already be the case) that once you buy a digital copy, it gets updated. So you only have the "one" book.

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

 

Ok, but you do know that the codex is out and this is the year update. So "fastest" GK players may get some sort of a fix to their stuff in a book form, is in a year. Now am a chaos/tyranid player, so years of no fun is nothing new to me, but we were told that 8th is suppose to be different. So telling someone to wait for a year to maybe get updated is imo not optimal, and considering we got an update now, how can they be sure that the new update is going to be done well next time?

 

and it is not like all the index changes are making the game bad. some are great, healthy for the game. But there are a ton that make no sense. I wouldn't be suprised, if soon a IA faq would pop up.

 

From the moment they slimmed down the GK codex by taking out the Inquisition and Assassins they have not really functioned against all-comers as a stand-alone pure force. They are just too over-specialised for that.

 

In the current environment they are too elite for their own good whereas the top competitive lists draw from a much wider unit choice. Mixed in with other Imperium forces they are much better. Massive points drops to make pure-GK forces competitive against Imperium-soup, Aeldari-soup and Chaos-soup lists would have resulted in units too efficient to be healthy for the overall balance of the game. In a Soup-dominated meta it is inevitable that competitive players will just cherry-pick the odd unit from GK that fills a gap in their list leaving most units from most codexes without much of a role.

 

GW wanted to use bonus rules to make pure armies more competitive but IMO dropped the ball on that by granting the bonus rules on a Detachment level rather than at an Army level as they did in AoS.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just make an inquisition coded that included grey knights, deathwatch, inquisition, and assassins. Let inquisition acolytes and stormtroopers be your base troops and bring in marines as super elite warriors with multiple wounds and special rules against their token enemies (so daemons and xenos). I feel like that would give them more options, reduce the number of codexes, and fit the fluff.

[Nusquam]

@sfPanzer: I understand, and I didn't mean to sound like I was raging at you.

 

I love 8th edition, and if the goal was to discourage the use of Lords of war in matched play by heavily increasing their points costs that would be totally fine.

 

But from Chapter approved, it is clear they only did this towards FW LoW, not GW. 

 

When an Astra militarum player can bring a GW Baneblade to a matched play game for literally HALF the cost of a FW fellblade, it destroys any semblance of balance.

 

That is what I find sad.

 

Not that we recieved points increases, but that it appears to arbitrarily penalize people with Forgeworld models.

 

This exactly. The Bane family is competitively costed but the Fell family got the shaft. Worse for substantially more points and pounds. Why?

[Happy-inquisitor]

 

Maybe they are trying to prevent most FW LOWs ( but not their's obviously) from being used in regular games and trying to encourage / force people to use Open play for larger apocalypse games where they don't have the extra cost, though if that's the case I wish they did that to all LOWs or just add a rule preventing them from being used in regular games (or a limit like only 1 per 2k points)

 

Or they just hate FW units in general and have some sort of secret agenda to sabatoge them

 

 

I would not say *hate* as such but...

 

They want to be involved in big tournaments and put them on Warhammer TV as part of their promotion of that aspect of the game

They want people to see armies on Warhammer TV which inspire them to go out and build one like it

Wall-to-wall Forgeworld does not look like what people see locally or - more importantly - on the shelves of the stores

Massed proxies for Forgeworld are not what they want to show - and that's before we even discuss the Chinese Resin issue

Too much Forgeworld does not really promote the game the way they want it to be seen.

 

I think they want FW to be flavour models you take because you like the model or the quirky way it plays - they want the basis of most armies they show to be main studio. If main studio have taken over points costing of FW to fix them - and let's be honest the quality control in the FW Indexes was poor - I think this is the direction they are likely to want to go. What we see in the leaks tells a reasonably clear story of what they are not happy with. They are not happy with all the top tables of tournaments they want to televise being covered with dodgy stand-ins[1] for FW models taken because the points costs were hopelessly, obviously too low. They do not want the community team to be constantly handling players who come up to complain about "broken" FW stuff when they probably privately agree with the complainants. None of that really sounds like happy players or happy viewers to them. From this point of view they will err on the side of caution, a slightly over-costed FW unit poses them less problems than a slightly undercosted one.

 

The titans are another matter, we are in effect reverting to the old normal-game / apocalypse-game split. If you want to bring a big FW model because you just love it or think it will win you the painting contest then you can do so but it handicaps you enough that the other players really should not have to worry about that sort of thing when coming up with their lists.

 

[1] How many chaos players even knew which was the correct FW model for the Malefic Sorcerer, much less ever consider buying them in bulk to spam them in their lists?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

 

 

Ok, but you do know that the codex is out and this is the year update. So "fastest" GK players may get some sort of a fix to their stuff in a book form, is in a year. Now am a chaos/tyranid player, so years of no fun is nothing new to me, but we were told that 8th is suppose to be different. So telling someone to wait for a year to maybe get updated is imo not optimal, and considering we got an update now, how can they be sure that the new update is going to be done well next time?

 

and it is not like all the index changes are making the game bad. some are great, healthy for the game. But there are a ton that make no sense. I wouldn't be suprised, if soon a IA faq would pop up.

 

From the moment they slimmed down the GK codex by taking out the Inquisition and Assassins they have not really functioned against all-comers as a stand-alone pure force. They are just too over-specialised for that.

 

In the current environment they are too elite for their own good whereas the top competitive lists draw from a much wider unit choice. Mixed in with other Imperium forces they are much better. Massive points drops to make pure-GK forces competitive against Imperium-soup, Aeldari-soup and Chaos-soup lists would have resulted in units too efficient to be healthy for the overall balance of the game. In a Soup-dominated meta it is inevitable that competitive players will just cherry-pick the odd unit from GK that fills a gap in their list leaving most units from most codexes without much of a role.

 

GW wanted to use bonus rules to make pure armies more competitive but IMO dropped the ball on that by granting the bonus rules on a Detachment level rather than at an Army level as they did in AoS.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just make an inquisition coded that included grey knights, deathwatch, inquisition, and assassins. Let inquisition acolytes and stormtroopers be your base troops and bring in marines as super elite warriors with multiple wounds and special rules against their token enemies (so daemons and xenos). I feel like that would give them more options, reduce the number of codexes, and fit the fluff.

Becauae every since thier creation in slaves to darkness, the GK have been a fully fledged chapter in thier own right.

 

Might as well just roll wolves, bangels and dangels into the sm codex instead.

 

That would fit the fluff and cut down on the number of codexes!

[Blindhamster]

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, but you do know that the codex is out and this is the year update. So "fastest" GK players may get some sort of a fix to their stuff in a book form, is in a year. Now am a chaos/tyranid player, so years of no fun is nothing new to me, but we were told that 8th is suppose to be different. So telling someone to wait for a year to maybe get updated is imo not optimal, and considering we got an update now, how can they be sure that the new update is going to be done well next time?

 

and it is not like all the index changes are making the game bad. some are great, healthy for the game. But there are a ton that make no sense. I wouldn't be suprised, if soon a IA faq would pop up.

 

From the moment they slimmed down the GK codex by taking out the Inquisition and Assassins they have not really functioned against all-comers as a stand-alone pure force. They are just too over-specialised for that.

 

In the current environment they are too elite for their own good whereas the top competitive lists draw from a much wider unit choice. Mixed in with other Imperium forces they are much better. Massive points drops to make pure-GK forces competitive against Imperium-soup, Aeldari-soup and Chaos-soup lists would have resulted in units too efficient to be healthy for the overall balance of the game. In a Soup-dominated meta it is inevitable that competitive players will just cherry-pick the odd unit from GK that fills a gap in their list leaving most units from most codexes without much of a role.

 

GW wanted to use bonus rules to make pure armies more competitive but IMO dropped the ball on that by granting the bonus rules on a Detachment level rather than at an Army level as they did in AoS.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just make an inquisition coded that included grey knights, deathwatch, inquisition, and assassins. Let inquisition acolytes and stormtroopers be your base troops and bring in marines as super elite warriors with multiple wounds and special rules against their token enemies (so daemons and xenos). I feel like that would give them more options, reduce the number of codexes, and fit the fluff.

Becauae every since thier creation in slaves to darkness, the GK have been a fully fledged chapter in thier own right.

 

Might as well just roll wolves, bangels and dangels into the sm codex instead.

 

That would fit the fluff and cut down on the number of codexes!

 

But back when grey knights were introduced their rules were super elite even by marine standard and you couldn't run an army of them.

[Biscuittzz]

Looks like GW want to push FW out of any standard game and leave it for Apocalypse. Great for bane-chassis sales too. 

 

Strange really, seeing as they made such a big deal about being able to include all your FW models in games when the initial advertising of 8th came out.

[Mitchverr]

Personally I am highly concerned as a death korps player now... This 1 might not hit in the nuts, but fear for the future lol.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Mitchverr

[Athrawes]

Looks like GW want to push FW out of any standard game and leave it for Apocalypse. Great for bane-chassis sales too. 

 

Strange really, seeing as they made such a big deal about being able to include all your FW models in games when the initial advertising of 8th came out.

 

This is what seems pretty strange to me. 

It's not all FW that got hit hard, just lords of War.

 

FW tanks, and infantry are still fairly competitively priced, just not their lords of war. 

 

Kharybdis only went up 75points.

 

Sicaran Venators only went up 15 points.

 

Sicaran's actually got cheaper now that their main gun is free.

 

But all FW lords of war have been priced out of matched play games. If they wanted lords of war out of matched play, fine, make all lords of war more expensive. But they only did it to Forgeworld not codex units.

 

This all comes across as spiteful and arbitrary. 

[TheWolfLord]

 

Looks like GW want to push FW out of any standard game and leave it for Apocalypse. Great for bane-chassis sales too. :whistling:

 

Strange really, seeing as they made such a big deal about being able to include all your FW models in games when the initial advertising of 8th came out.

 

 

This is what seems pretty strange to me. 

It's not all FW that got hit hard, just lords of War.

 

FW tanks, and infantry are still fairly competitively priced, just not their lords of war. 

 

Kharybdis only went up 75points.

 

Sicaran Venators only went up 15 points.

 

Sicaran's actually got cheaper now that their main gun is free.

 

But all FW lords of war have been priced out of matched play games. If they wanted lords of war out of matched play, fine, make all lords of war more expensive. But they only did it to Forgeworld not codex units.

 

This all comes across as spiteful and arbitrary.

Sicaran Venators went down nearly 100 points. Both the Relic Sicaran and Punisher got massive drops too.

 

It's purely targeted at the Lords of War.