Get Ready For Chapter Approved

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, but you do know that the codex is out and this is the year update. So "fastest" GK players may get some sort of a fix to their stuff in a book form, is in a year. Now am a chaos/tyranid player, so years of no fun is nothing new to me, but we were told that 8th is suppose to be different. So telling someone to wait for a year to maybe get updated is imo not optimal, and considering we got an update now, how can they be sure that the new update is going to be done well next time?

 

and it is not like all the index changes are making the game bad. some are great, healthy for the game. But there are a ton that make no sense. I wouldn't be suprised, if soon a IA faq would pop up.

 

From the moment they slimmed down the GK codex by taking out the Inquisition and Assassins they have not really functioned against all-comers as a stand-alone pure force. They are just too over-specialised for that.

 

In the current environment they are too elite for their own good whereas the top competitive lists draw from a much wider unit choice. Mixed in with other Imperium forces they are much better. Massive points drops to make pure-GK forces competitive against Imperium-soup, Aeldari-soup and Chaos-soup lists would have resulted in units too efficient to be healthy for the overall balance of the game. In a Soup-dominated meta it is inevitable that competitive players will just cherry-pick the odd unit from GK that fills a gap in their list leaving most units from most codexes without much of a role.

 

GW wanted to use bonus rules to make pure armies more competitive but IMO dropped the ball on that by granting the bonus rules on a Detachment level rather than at an Army level as they did in AoS.

I don’t understand why they didn’t just make an inquisition coded that included grey knights, deathwatch, inquisition, and assassins. Let inquisition acolytes and stormtroopers be your base troops and bring in marines as super elite warriors with multiple wounds and special rules against their token enemies (so daemons and xenos). I feel like that would give them more options, reduce the number of codexes, and fit the fluff.

Becauae every since thier creation in slaves to darkness, the GK have been a fully fledged chapter in thier own right.

 

Might as well just roll wolves, bangels and dangels into the sm codex instead.

 

That would fit the fluff and cut down on the number of codexes!

But back when grey knights were introduced their rules were super elite even by marine standard and you couldn't run an army of them.

That's not correct. In slaves to darkness they were a full chapter of marines (predating the creation of terminators) with the option of an inquisitor as HQ choice.

 

Nothing more 'elite' about them than any other elite marine army list.

 

And it was a full army list.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

Maybe they are trying to prevent most FW LOWs ( but not their's obviously) from being used in regular games and trying to encourage / force people to use Open play for larger apocalypse games where they don't have the extra cost, though if that's the case I wish they did that to all LOWs or just add a rule preventing them from being used in regular games (or a limit like only 1 per 2k points)

 

Or they just hate FW units in general and have some sort of secret agenda to sabatoge them

 

I would not say *hate* as such but...

 

They want to be involved in big tournaments and put them on Warhammer TV as part of their promotion of that aspect of the game

They want people to see armies on Warhammer TV which inspire them to go out and build one like it

Wall-to-wall Forgeworld does not look like what people see locally or - more importantly - on the shelves of the stores

Massed proxies for Forgeworld are not what they want to show - and that's before we even discuss the Chinese Resin issue

Too much Forgeworld does not really promote the game the way they want it to be seen.

 

I think they want FW to be flavour models you take because you like the model or the quirky way it plays - they want the basis of most armies they show to be main studio. If main studio have taken over points costing of FW to fix them - and let's be honest the quality control in the FW Indexes was poor - I think this is the direction they are likely to want to go. What we see in the leaks tells a reasonably clear story of what they are not happy with. They are not happy with all the top tables of tournaments they want to televise being covered with dodgy stand-ins[1] for FW models taken because the points costs were hopelessly, obviously too low. They do not want the community team to be constantly handling players who come up to complain about "broken" FW stuff when they probably privately agree with the complainants. None of that really sounds like happy players or happy viewers to them. From this point of view they will err on the side of caution, a slightly over-costed FW unit poses them less problems than a slightly undercosted one.

 

The titans are another matter, we are in effect reverting to the old normal-game / apocalypse-game split. If you want to bring a big FW model because you just love it or think it will win you the painting contest then you can do so but it handicaps you enough that the other players really should not have to worry about that sort of thing when coming up with their lists.

 

[1] How many chaos players even knew which was the correct FW model for the Malefic Sorcerer, much less ever consider buying them in bulk to spam them in their lists?

Seems :cuss stupid the majority of the stuff they overcosted (apart from Malefic lords) was already overcosted as it was so you would barely use it anyway just look at the FW Guard armies there was no point taking any of them compared to GW guard now there is even less reason. I hated the bull crap excuse FW is "broken" remarks nothing ever was yes there was a few units (Malefic lords) but most of those were just dquilvants of already broken units (look at Primaris Psykers so it's fine to have broken GW units since everyone accepts them but broken FW units is so unfair as the player base moans )

 

The bit about Titans is stupid they already were priced at reasonable costs so you would never see one at regular games yes if you want a big FW model you have to have a handicap but if you play solely GW you can easily take multiple big models like Knights or baneblades which other players have no choice but to worry about them

 

 

Look at any of FW super heavy tanks the Fellblade 540pts so no one even bothered fielding one since the Babeblade is far more cheaper (like seriously undercosted ) so why would anyone even bother using one apart from using a cool looking model. Now CA makes it literally unplayable since the jacked up all the tanks like the fellblade to insanely stupid costs like 740 :cuss there never was any chance they were going to be spammed in tournament settings as they were why did they even bother making it more so

 

 

Your going to have to show me the actual Malefic lords model as last time I checked there was no model so I see no reason why players couldn't convert their own version

Edited November 25, 2017 by Plaguecaster

[Panzer]

Inb4 there will be an Apocalypse Supplement with "new updated Datasheets for all your favorite Lord of War options!" ^^

[Gentlemanloser]

If anyone is interested, Valerian wrote up an amzingly detailed history of the GK from thier creation in RT onwards.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333484-a-history-of-the-grey-knights-faction/?do=findComment&comment=4733842

[Race Bannon]

++++

Hey gang, although not against the rules per se, could we quote another's post that is relevant to the follow-up point of view? I dunno, think of it as an internet courtesy.

 

Think of the children, save the internet!

+++

[Dulahan]

Ye ah, PL for apoc or not, my group won't be using it even for our epic games.

[Nalim]

Is there already a leak on the changes to character rules?

[Blindhamster]

If anyone is interested, Valerian wrote up an amzingly detailed history of the GK from thier creation in RT onwards.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333484-a-history-of-the-grey-knights-faction/?do=findComment&comment=4733842

By the time I joined the hobby the rogue trader grey knight terminators were the thing I was aware of. Those guya were amazing.

 

Out of interest, would you like grey knights to go back to being mostly non psyker and mostly none force weapon? Working like standard coded marines but replacing space marine terminators with modern day paladins?

 

That to me feel a most like the rogue trader description. Possibly with a special issue ammo rule like deathwatch for pay bolts or something.

[Gentlemanloser]

Only if normal space marines lose centurion, grav guns, etc.

 

I don't think there's any point going backwards.

 

But i dislike peoples notion that the GK arent and don't deserve to be a proper army in 40k. They originally were, and while ignored by GW for over a decade, Ward bought them back to being thier own army again.

 

With just as many specific items of wargear, units and Chapter Traits as every other marine army.

 

If we're somehow so special, now days so are every other marine army.

 

Yet we're back to being ignored and marginalised by GW again. Our codex is rife with internal inbalance, and unlike all the other marines (including the Deathwatch... ) we are denied the future proofing between codexes that Primaris releases and FW bring.

 

For no reason.

[The4thHorseman]

Has anyone done a Points Breakdown of (+) or (-) Point Changes?

[Marshal Arthur]

Only if normal space marines lose centurion, grav guns, etc.

 

I don't think there's any point going backwards.

 

But i dislike peoples notion that the GK arent and don't deserve to be a proper army in 40k. They originally were, and while ignored by GW for over a decade, Ward bought them back to being thier own army again.

 

With just as many specific items of wargear, units and Chapter Traits as every other marine army.

 

If we're somehow so special, now days so are every other marine army.

 

Yet we're back to being ignored and marginalised by GW again. Our codex is rife with internal inbalance, and unlike all the other marines (including the Deathwatch... ) we are denied the future proofing between codexes that Primaris releases and FW bring.

 

For no reason.

I have no problem with Grey Knights functioning as their own army I just feel like it would help to consolidate armies and putting them in with all inquisition and inquisition related armies would help. They would still need all their related warhead and options to field them solo but at the same time per the fluff they’re not line soldiers but a very elite and niche force with a specific purpose. In truth I wish all marine armies had more elite stats and that the different flavors were rolled into one large codex but tis life.

[Blindhamster]

But. And it's a big one.

 

Grey knights became far more unique, they all became psykers, they all got storm bolters and they all got force weapons.

 

Of course youre not going to get regular primaris. They don't remotely fit the grey knight concept that has been created (in no small part by Mr ward).

 

When they have designed models for it, there will no doubt be primaris grey knights, and they will probably make regular primaris look like chumps. But they'll undoubtedly have a unique style of armour that carries on the knightly look, theyll have a titan pattern nemesis force halbard with built in bolt rifle or something no doubt too.

 

Basically.. it takes time, it's no surprise grey knights don't get regular primaris, grey knights are not regular marines and do not operate like them. They did back in 2nd ed, but as you correctly pointed out, we have moved on.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's the point. Models have been designed specifically for Bangel and Dangel primaris.

 

But they got access to normal ones from day 1.

 

We could, like the GMNDK or new Chaplain, take a normal primaris and kit bash it to GK-ify. No problem.

 

But we aren't being given that option.

 

And as Jeske mentions, does anyone really think GW will introduce new models for the GK outside a Codex release?

 

We're (unlike all the other marines) now stuck as is. Until next year's CA, or whenever we get a nec Codex.

 

Which is an outright travesty.

[Ishagu]

I do think that mixing Deathwatch, Grey Knights and Inquisition including Acolytes into one force called Imperial Agents or something would fix the issues.

 

As it stands Grey Knights are too specialised, lack bodies.

Deathwatch fare better as a stand alone force and benefit greatly from Primaris additions however.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Ishagu

[Panzer]

Pretty pointless to talk about that to be honest. If anything GW is going to seperate and flesh out subfactions more instead of rolling them back together.

[Bryan Blaire]

Aren't they just playing true to form about Guilliman not knowing that he need-s/ed to order Cawl to make Primaris Grey Knights?

 

Perhaps because there's no Grey Knight Primarch, something about the process and material used interferes with whatever gene-seed (if it I should modified) the Grey Knights use. To this day, we don't actually know what gene-seed is used for Grey Knights, right? It's been rumored that it's partially derived from the Emperor (or possibly Malcador?) himself, but for all we know, it is simply could be Ultramarine gene-seed that doesn't have any tweaks at all right (just the proper candidates selected - which could actually counter the earlier idea that the Primaris organs somehow interfere with the GK creation process, but there could still be something more ?

[depthcharge12]

Even as a (new) Guard player, I think the shadowswords are criminally undercosted. I’ve seen quite a few of those pop up in lists (look on YouTube) that they have no business being in. Watched a miniwargaming batrep that used three of them (ok it was apoc but it was still an unfriendly move) that just nuked the other side. Don’t know why the dang thing isn’t +200 points on top of its regular cost.

 

At least GW has been quite good about balancing thus far though for everything else. I love this edition but there are some things that stick out like a sore thumb.

[abadizzle]

Too many books. I wouldnt be salty at all for a free faq/errata of a couple pts changes... but this is pretty dumb.

[Laughingman]

If I'm reading the leaks correctly a Relic Hell-forged Predator with the Autocannon and Heavy bolters and the regular Chaos Predator are within 5 points of each other. Functionally identical except one eats people in close combat and is a elite choice.

[TheWolfLord]

If I'm reading the leaks correctly a Relic Hell-forged Predator with the Autocannon and Heavy bolters and the regular Chaos Predator are within 5 points of each other. Functionally identical except one eats people in close combat and is a elite choice.

Sounds about right then. Being an Elite is no better than being a Heavy choice and eating an enemy isn't a likely event to warrant more than a small difference.

[TheWolfLord]

Even as a (new) Guard player, I think the shadowswords are criminally undercosted. I’ve seen quite a few of those pop up in lists (look on YouTube) that they have no business being in. Watched a miniwargaming batrep that used three of them (ok it was apoc but it was still an unfriendly move) that just nuked the other side. Don’t know why the dang thing isn’t +200 points on top of its regular cost.

At least GW has been quite good about balancing thus far though for everything else. I love this edition but there are some things that stick out like a sore thumb.

That's the huge issue for me. If GW decided Lords of War weren't appropriate in matched play games and nerfed them all then it's fair and nobody should complain.

 

It's the fact GW targeted FW only and left the GW ones untouched. I'm seeing lots of Baneblades and Shadowswords in competitive lists and sometimes multiples because they are that good for their points now.

 

There's no way a Falchion is worth the same as 2 Shadowswords for example.

[01RTB01]

 

Even as a (new) Guard player, I think the shadowswords are criminally undercosted. I’ve seen quite a few of those pop up in lists (look on YouTube) that they have no business being in. Watched a miniwargaming batrep that used three of them (ok it was apoc but it was still an unfriendly move) that just nuked the other side. Don’t know why the dang thing isn’t +200 points on top of its regular cost.

At least GW has been quite good about balancing thus far though for everything else. I love this edition but there are some things that stick out like a sore thumb.

That's the huge issue for me. If GW decided Lords of War weren't appropriate in matched play games and nerfed them all then it's fair and nobody should complain.

 

It's the fact GW targeted FW only and left the GW ones untouched. I'm seeing lots of Baneblades and Shadowswords in competitive lists and sometimes multiples because they are that good for their points now.

 

There's no way a Falchion is worth the same as 2 Shadowswords for example.

If the falchion goes first they'd only have 1 shadowsword left :D

[Havok13]

Im all for the updates to improve balance, however it seems little things get overlooked. One thing that is annoying me (doesnt take much) :) the price for chainfists. No one will take these now due to their price staying the same, especially when thunder hammers and power fists have decreased.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Im all for the updates to improve balance, however it seems little things get overlooked. One thing that is annoying me (doesnt take much) the price for chainfists. No one will take these now due to their price staying the same, especially when thunder hammers and power fists have decreased.

 

They dropped them to 14pts for Chaos. Not sure if they did for others.

[TheWolfLord]

 

 

Even as a (new) Guard player, I think the shadowswords are criminally undercosted. I’ve seen quite a few of those pop up in lists (look on YouTube) that they have no business being in. Watched a miniwargaming batrep that used three of them (ok it was apoc but it was still an unfriendly move) that just nuked the other side. Don’t know why the dang thing isn’t +200 points on top of its regular cost.

At least GW has been quite good about balancing thus far though for everything else. I love this edition but there are some things that stick out like a sore thumb.

That's the huge issue for me. If GW decided Lords of War weren't appropriate in matched play games and nerfed them all then it's fair and nobody should complain.

It's the fact GW targeted FW only and left the GW ones untouched. I'm seeing lots of Baneblades and Shadowswords in competitive lists and sometimes multiples because they are that good for their points now.

There's no way a Falchion is worth the same as 2 Shadowswords for example.

If the falchion goes first they'd only have 1 shadowsword left :D

Which is more than enough to kill the Falchion in return so you're still up 1 very undercosted Lord of War.