Carcharodons: outer dark - book cover

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

One thing I liked but was a little confused about was the the ashen claws leaders names. Nev and Sixx are throwbacks to the heresy and Brann/Agapito Nev and Vincent Sixx. But Sixx died and the other two weren't part of the ashen claws ; bit of a stretch that their relatives were also legionaries and part of the 18th chapter

As was said earlier names can become like titles. There are only so many and ten thousand years is a long time. For instance, legendary scout Naaman was the 14th, as far as he could figure, Dark Angel to bear that name.

As I said earlier, the context makes no sense in this case. The ashen claws were proud terran veterans who were exiled because corax really didn't like their style of warfare, reputation and closeness to Horus. So the ashen claws, including the guy who came up with their main tactic (that lead to their reputation), decided to use the names of deliverance born mid - ranked captains that replaced them, as honour names. Not arkhas fal, the shade lord who led the XIXth. Not Nerat Kirine, the guy who pioneered their brutal hit and run tactics. But two deliverance captains.

 

I find it pretty unlikely that they forgot their actual prominent officers and we're like "oh yea, you guys remember those two brothers that helped corax in the rebellion? Yea, the primarch that exiled us; they were about company captain level when we were exiled, but boy were they inspiring. Also the newest apothecary that literally hasn't done anything. He's inspiring too."

 

I like robs reference and how he decided to tie it. It's clever. But "muh honour name" isn't appropriate at all in this context.

[nagashnee]

Conflicted about this book, on the one hand i loved the characters, the ongoing great portrayal of the space sharks, and the first third of the book was fantastic. But in contrast to that were some pretty irksome things SPOILERS INCOMING:

 

1) Why would the hive fleet turn back after the cult is defeated? Cults only draw hivefleets once they grow to great size on a suitable world, so its the intergalactic snack signal, killing the cult would not change why the fleet is heading there? I mean sure there is a chance a hive fleet has many signals and so chooses to re allocate to a sure thing if one goes dark.  But the novel presents this possibility as a sure thing, with the entire chapter risking extinction on the sure hand knowledge it will work, but we know for a fact that killing a cult late stage DOES NOT mean this.

2) Why did the fleet have to fight at all? I mean if the signal going dark would do the trick why fight? Its not like they delayed it or pushed it back, it was still coming into scanner range. 

3) While tying in the first book was nice, and some aspects ( like the arbites) were done well, i felt that the deamon curse failed to really serve a purpose, sure it mean some vague tests and sense of worthiness had to be overcome, but it just felt rushed and tacked on. Might have been better handled in a future book or a dedicated short story?

 

Otherwise great stuff, LOVED the whole concept and execution of the grey tithe, so fitting so well done. Liked the character progression and time skip, also the nod to the rogue trader short story.

 

All in all a fun and good book. With one or two weak spots. 

[RobMac]

Conflicted about this book, on the one hand i loved the characters, the ongoing great portrayal of the space sharks, and the first third of the book was fantastic. But in contrast to that were some pretty irksome things SPOILERS INCOMING:

 

1) Why would the hive fleet turn back after the cult is defeated? Cults only draw hivefleets once they grow to great size on a suitable world, so its the intergalactic snack signal, killing the cult would not change why the fleet is heading there? I mean sure there is a chance a hive fleet has many signals and so chooses to re allocate to a sure thing if one goes dark.  But the novel presents this possibility as a sure thing, with the entire chapter risking extinction on the sure hand knowledge it will work, but we know for a fact that killing a cult late stage DOES NOT mean this.

2) Why did the fleet have to fight at all? I mean if the signal going dark would do the trick why fight? Its not like they delayed it or pushed it back, it was still coming into scanner range. 

3) While tying in the first book was nice, and some aspects ( like the arbites) were done well, i felt that the deamon curse failed to really serve a purpose, sure it mean some vague tests and sense of worthiness had to be overcome, but it just felt rushed and tacked on. Might have been better handled in a future book or a dedicated short story?

 

Otherwise great stuff, LOVED the whole concept and execution of the grey tithe, so fitting so well done. Liked the character progression and time skip, also the nod to the rogue trader short story.

 

All in all a fun and good book. With one or two weak spots. 

All good points, and I'm glad you enjoyed it overall. My thinking on;

1) It's important to bear in mind that the novel takes place in 885.M41, 140 years after the first appearance of Hive Fleet Behemoth but 107 years before the full arrival of Hive Fleet Kraken. The tyranids in the book represent a vanguard for Kraken's "attack from below the galactic plane." The Carcharodons aren't really aware of just how vast this threat is until the book's end, hence why they've been fighting them solo in the War in the Deeps for a decade prior to the start of the book. The idea is that this advance tendril is seeking out the "soft spot" in the galactic underbelly for Kraken to later strike at. While snuffing out a 'stealer cult's signal wouldn't necessarily dissuade a hive fleet, that signal going from "steady" to "suddenly completely gone" in the space of a few days would imply something nasty is now waiting on the target world, negating the swarm's objective to find the sweet spot for the coming Kraken.

2) The Carcharodons main fleet weren't in contact with Sharr or Piety V, so couldn't know his mission had been a success until the hive fleet began to withdraw. They had to make a stand though as they were on the cusp of breaking through into the galactic plane. If they'd waited to just see if Sharr was successful they may be too late had he not been to attempt a block.

3) As much as this sounds like a "get out of jail" card, the daemon stuff is building for the future and should become more apparent if there's another book. Not that there is another book right now, but that hopefully explains why it may feel tacked on.

 

Also "intergalactic snack signal" is the greatest phrase ever  

[SkimaskMohawk]

I was under the impression that leviathan attacked from under the galactic plane, or was that retconned since I last looked in 4th?

[nagashnee]

 

Conflicted about this book, on the one hand i loved the characters, the ongoing great portrayal of the space sharks, and the first third of the book was fantastic. But in contrast to that were some pretty irksome things SPOILERS INCOMING:

 

1) Why would the hive fleet turn back after the cult is defeated? Cults only draw hivefleets once they grow to great size on a suitable world, so its the intergalactic snack signal, killing the cult would not change why the fleet is heading there? I mean sure there is a chance a hive fleet has many signals and so chooses to re allocate to a sure thing if one goes dark.  But the novel presents this possibility as a sure thing, with the entire chapter risking extinction on the sure hand knowledge it will work, but we know for a fact that killing a cult late stage DOES NOT mean this.

2) Why did the fleet have to fight at all? I mean if the signal going dark would do the trick why fight? Its not like they delayed it or pushed it back, it was still coming into scanner range. 

3) While tying in the first book was nice, and some aspects ( like the arbites) were done well, i felt that the deamon curse failed to really serve a purpose, sure it mean some vague tests and sense of worthiness had to be overcome, but it just felt rushed and tacked on. Might have been better handled in a future book or a dedicated short story?

 

Otherwise great stuff, LOVED the whole concept and execution of the grey tithe, so fitting so well done. Liked the character progression and time skip, also the nod to the rogue trader short story.

 

All in all a fun and good book. With one or two weak spots. 

All good points, and I'm glad you enjoyed it overall. My thinking on;

1) It's important to bear in mind that the novel takes place in 885.M41, 140 years after the first appearance of Hive Fleet Behemoth but 107 years before the full arrival of Hive Fleet Kraken. The tyranids in the book represent a vanguard for Kraken's "attack from below the galactic plane." The Carcharodons aren't really aware of just how vast this threat is until the book's end, hence why they've been fighting them solo in the War in the Deeps for a decade prior to the start of the book. The idea is that this advance tendril is seeking out the "soft spot" in the galactic underbelly for Kraken to later strike at. While snuffing out a 'stealer cult's signal wouldn't necessarily dissuade a hive fleet, that signal going from "steady" to "suddenly completely gone" in the space of a few days would imply something nasty is now waiting on the target world, negating the swarm's objective to find the sweet spot for the coming Kraken.

2) The Carcharodons main fleet weren't in contact with Sharr or Piety V, so couldn't know his mission had been a success until the hive fleet began to withdraw. They had to make a stand though as they were on the cusp of breaking through into the galactic plane. If they'd waited to just see if Sharr was successful they may be too late had he not been to attempt a block.

3) As much as this sounds like a "get out of jail" card, the daemon stuff is building for the future and should become more apparent if there's another book. Not that there is another book right now, but that hopefully explains why it may feel tacked on.

 

Also "intergalactic snack signal" is the greatest phrase ever  

 

Firstly,thank you for replying .  I can see what you mean on 1, its what i thought the most likely situation was as well, and i can see space marines being hyper assertive and self confident, with the sharks not having the most up to date data on the nids. 

 

On 2 tho while i can see your point, i just dint feel that sense of urgency while reading, dont get me wrong, i know how easy it is to sit back and critique someones elses work, and if i come off as harsh or something i really really dont mean to. I truly enjoyed both books and really do hope there is a third. 

 

3 was precisely the reason i thought it would be. And based on the last two book i will certainly buy the third as well  .

 

Again thanks for shedding more light on the book and keep up the great work! 

[RobMac]

 

Firstly,thank you for replying .  I can see what you mean on 1, its what i thought the most likely situation was as well, and i can see space marines being hyper assertive and self confident, with the sharks not having the most up to date data on the nids. 

 

 

On 2 tho while i can see your point, i just dint feel that sense of urgency while reading, dont get me wrong, i know how easy it is to sit back and critique someones elses work, and if i come off as harsh or something i really really dont mean to. I truly enjoyed both books and really do hope there is a third. 

 

3 was precisely the reason i thought it would be. And based on the last two book i will certainly buy the third as well  .

 

Again thanks for shedding more light on the book and keep up the great work! 

 

Not at all, they were all totally valid points and they'll help me improve for next time! Like I said, glad you enjoyed it 

[Roomsky]

Well Bellarius gave this a good review, and specifically cited improvements in all areas. Furthermore, I hear the human cast is great in this one, which was my favorite part of Red Tithe. Coupled with how much I liked Perturabo: Stone and Iron, I might actually need to get the paperback.

 

Dangit RobMac, just when I thought I was out, you pull me back in.

[RobMac]

Well Bellarius gave this a good review, and specifically cited improvements in all areas. Furthermore, I hear the human cast is great in this one, which was my favorite part of Red Tithe. Coupled with how much I liked Perturabo: Stone and Iron, I might actually need to get the paperback.

 

Dangit RobMac, just when I thought I was out, you pull me back in.

I like living on the edge   Seriously though I enjoyed reading Bellarius' review, the criticisms were very constructive, as ever. 

[Kelborn]

Nearly halfway through and I must say that I loved the Ashen Claw scene.

 

I said it several times and I'll say it again: Even if it will not be featured in Corax' Primarch novel, you have to write about Gate-42! I can think of no one else who could do the Terran XIXth Legion more justice.

 

Furthermore, I love the fact that Rannik is back again. And her comrades are enjoyable, as well. As always, Bail and his brothers are just pure awesome. So mysterious even in the second book. You're giving slight hints of their past, etc. without revealing to much. Cudos for that! :tu:

 

Eager for the second half.

[bluntblade]

I'd rather read a different battle tbh, one that plays more with what the Ravens could do beyond being meme ninjas

[Kelborn]

Ehm... Gate-42, Raven Guard is nearly forced to do a frontal assault, suffers extremely, Corax was about to came at blows with Perturabo and swore to never follow Horus again, Terran Raven Guard was exiled as Nomad Predation Fleets....

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Gate_Forty-Two

 

Are we talking about the same Gate Forty-Two? ^^

There was no ninja action at all.

[bluntblade]

I know, and phrased my sentence poorly. Gate 42 isn't ninjas, but other than the brouhaha just doesn't sound that interesting for a story.

 

I want to see the Raven Guard owning their role in the Great Crusade, maybe partnered with the Salamanders so Vulkan gets a good showing at long last.

[b1soul]

Gate 42 gets my vote...

 

I think they could make it into a full length novel, like 400 plus pages

 

So many interesting angles to explore

[Laughingman]

Got a chance to read the book and found it interesting, partially hilarious is the moment when tyberos is like "I'm gonna disable that tyranid boarding spore.... by myself".... One question though, who is the lady sitting adjacent to the Ashen claws leader in the Parlay Scene? Was not really clear what her role was.... She was just kinda there.... 

[Sandlemad]

I took her as being some senior figure in the chapter. The fact that she was able to order around astartes, had the ear of the chapter master, and that mortals in general feasted and freely associated with astartes shows how integrated unaugmented humans are with the Ashen Claws. Combined with their rowdiness, degraded tech and inactivity/indolence, this makes them feel more like a glorified pirate band than a 'serious' chapter, even one as odd as the Carcharodons. Her presence serves to show how far the Ashen Claws have 'degraded' at the edges of the galaxy, away from the imperium.

 

Not saying that having humans integrated is a bad thing but in this case it felt like part of a package showing how the Ashen Claws were, at that stage, just a little pathetic.

[Petitioner's City]

I took her as being some senior figure in the chapter. The fact that she was able to order around astartes, had the ear of the chapter master, and that mortals in general feasted and freely associated with astartes shows how integrated unaugmented humans are with the Ashen Claws. Combined with their rowdiness, degraded tech and inactivity/indolence, this makes them feel more like a glorified pirate band than a 'serious' chapter, even one as odd as the Carcharodons. Her presence serves to show how far the Ashen Claws have 'degraded' at the edges of the galaxy, away from the imperium.

 

Not saying that having humans integrated is a bad thing but in this case it felt like part of a package showing how the Ashen Claws were, at that stage, just a little pathetic.

But that plays on stupid or dangerous ideas of masculinity. I wondered if they were family. An insular community - many must be related. Not that the ashen claw lord was a very complex or a balanced individual, but I did like the claws' alternate society.

[Sandlemad]

 

I took her as being some senior figure in the chapter. The fact that she was able to order around astartes, had the ear of the chapter master, and that mortals in general feasted and freely associated with astartes shows how integrated unaugmented humans are with the Ashen Claws. Combined with their rowdiness, degraded tech and inactivity/indolence, this makes them feel more like a glorified pirate band than a 'serious' chapter, even one as odd as the Carcharodons. Her presence serves to show how far the Ashen Claws have 'degraded' at the edges of the galaxy, away from the imperium.

 

Not saying that having humans integrated is a bad thing but in this case it felt like part of a package showing how the Ashen Claws were, at that stage, just a little pathetic.

But that plays on stupid or dangerous ideas of masculinity. I wondered if they were family. An insular community - many must be related. Not that the ashen claw lord was a very complex or a balanced individual, but I did like the claws' alternate society.

 

 

It does and the community of a chapter that actually gives a crap about "its" normal humans, men and women, to the point that they're feasting, bearing arms and expressing camaraderie/solidarity alongside astartes certainly would be a healthier community. It's not hard to be healthier than an isolated single-gender community of roided-up child soldiers.

 

In the case of the Ashen Claws though, this integration of humans takes place in an fairly anarchic (they still have a master and captains, even if they're fractious and unbalanced) resource-starved, rough-and-ready pirate setup. Again, that's not a bad thing in itself; it's definitely better to be a mortal working alongside the Claws than a slave serving under the Carcharodons. But I think it's not clear if the Claws integrated mortals into the chapter because they have rejected the imperial way of doing things or out of sheer desperation from their difficult circumstances. Maybe both. They have a good amount of astartes bodies and an impressive flagship but they're hurting for almost everything else astartes need to function.

 

When I say that the Ashen Claws come off as pathetic, I don't mean because of how they treat humans but because when we first meet them the chapter is languishing in obscurity and dwelling on petty feuds. Their librarius is dying, they're hiding from imperial attention, raiding distant imperial worlds and practically ignoring the approaching tyranid threat and other dangers. They're not doing what a space marine chapter is supposed to be doing and are almost solely concerned with self-preservation.

Contrast that with the undeniably brutal and conscience-less Carcharodons who treat their slaves like garbage but are actually out in the dark warring with tyranids, orks, chaos, etc. They're not 'better' but they're doing something.

 

The Claws are fascinating and I'd love to read more about them but I can't help seeing them as pretty shabby. Like Talos and crew in the Night Lord books.

[Beren]

It would be kind of weird for them to be doing normal chapter duties since they pretty definitively rebelled against the Imperium and pretty much everyone else during the Heresy.

[Sandlemad]

It would be kind of weird for them to be doing normal chapter duties since they pretty definitively rebelled against the Imperium and pretty much everyone else during the Heresy.

 

Granted but they have spent 10k years maintain themselves as a body of astartes, carrying out the odd piratical raid for... not much. We're only seeing a glimpse of them at a particular point in their history but they don't seem seem to have much of a purpose beyond self-perpetuation. Which feels weird itself.

 

"We have to keep the chapter going because..." For CSM it'd be ambition or hatred, for SM chapters it'd be duty. Without those things, 10 millennia of gathering generations of young men then killing half them off in trials and surgery for the sake of piracy seems a bit pitiful. That listless, stuck-in-the-past life is genuinely interesting.

[RobMac]

Sandlemad makes many good points, all I'd add is there was a fairly obvious effort to juxtapose the "good guy" loyal Carcharodons and the fact they're slavers with the "morally ambiguous" renegade Claws and their generally close bonds with their human serfs and allies. Oh the shades of grey.

 

I'd also like to further the Claws' plotline at some point, I certainly wouldn't want them languishing in obscurity forever. What that actually comes to mean though, remains to be seen. 

[Ascanius]

Possible reasons for the Ashen Claws' having maintained Astartes traditions seem fairly straightforward to me.

 

First, they were founded by Terran exiles. Being rejected by their Primarch, they would have little alternative (if they wanted to survive at all) but to cling to their identity as the transhuman soldiers of Unification and Compliance, predating the changes that swept in along with the Primarchs. The alternative path they could have taken is the one that the Carcharodons (apparently, possibly, maybe) did - to make the fact of their exile itself the core of their duty and thus their identity. The Ashen Claws? Well, they were made to conquer, and that's what they're going to do - even if their ability to do so on any great scale is hampered by circumstance.

 

Second, the only reason they survived is because they're Astartes. They might mix with humans on a much more equal basis than normal Space Marines, but their only advantage when it comes to surviving in their corner of the galaxy is their cadre of transhuman warriors. Not perpetuating the "chapter" just means resigning themselves to extinction, sooner or later.

 

Third, they obviously have come to define themselves as independent - not traitors, not loyalists, but separatists of a sort - who might cling to their Astartes identity as a middle finger to a galaxy that's generally split between Chaos and Imperial. Again, that's kind of the root of their resentment of the Carcharodons - they live much the same lives but the latter choose to see their existence as a special kind of loyalty, rather than "admitting", from the Ashen Claws' perspective, the fact of their rejection by the Imperium.

 

Related to that is the apparent distaste they have for the Carcharodons' mixed heritage, which I think would also feed back into their pride in their singular Terran XIXth Legion origins.

[Laughingman]

Interestingly the ashen claws have maintained a significant amount of heresy era tech and organization, of note  Kharybdis Assault Claws (or reverse engineered analogues, freed from mechanicum dogma they had 10,000 years to fix its flaws),  They also  appear to have maintained legion tactical support teams...

[Kelborn]

Finally finished it.

Loved every single chapter. Great continuation of Red Tithe. Can't wait for the third one.

 

My top moments:

Everything that has to do with the Ashen Claws.

I was speechless when I first read about their appearance in this novel. Now that I've read it, I really really really really would love to see Rob dealing with Corax and Gate-42.

 

Tyberos!

What a dog-damn badass. Single-handedly taking out an entire boarding spore and behaves like nothing happens. The scene including him standing before the gigantic tank on the bridge was somehow intimidating. It reminded me of Vader standing on the bridge of a Star Destroyer.

 

But,

when Nev asked him if it still was the Red Wake, who stand before him or if Tyberos had changed again, what does that mean? Is Tyberos more of a title? Is he THAT old to have several "incarnations" / guises throughout the years?

 

It surprised me that Brant was the Magos instead of the cleric leader of Piety V. Quite a different take on Genestealers than within The Last Hunt and I enjoyed it. TLH focused more on the Tyranid force itself. Outer Dark is more cult centered.

 

I thought that the recurrence of Bar'Ghul did not feel misplaced. The battle was a bit anti-climatic, though. Is it possible that Khauri's body is now haunted by the demon? Right after the battle, his eyes were described to bear lightning. Furthermore, the emerged as a different man. Him openly questioning the Pale One was kind of heralding a possible clash between the two of them...

 

Rob, I'd recommend two things to you: (it's rather a wish list ;))

 

- Write about Gate-42. I got the impression that the majority of the community would like to see that done by you. ;)

- Give us a Ashen Claw side story. Either a short or a novella. An entire novel might be difficult to fill. But regardless, (and to quote a famous meme) just DO IT!

 

You know you want them, too. :P

[bluntblade]

Can someone explain to me what's so enticing about Gate 42? It works fine as an exemplary battle, but seems a bit one-note to build an entire novel around, and explicitly doesn't give us the chance to see how the Ravens wage war on their own terms.

[Kelborn]

Well, you got

 

- 4 different Legions plus their Primarch interactions

- the possibility to write about Terran and Deliverance Raven Guard and their relation to one another and further between Corax and the Terrans

- the Raven Guard being forced to enact a frontal assault instead of their familiar way of warfare

- nearly a brawl between Perturabo and Corax, etc. way before Istvan, when everything was still alright; Bonus: Russ as an arbiter and Corax vowing to never fight under Horus again (which is kind of a thing back then)

- an interesting antagonist faction

- the aftermath regarding the exile of the Terran Raven Guard and the foundation of the Nomad Predation Fleets; that kind of stuff (banishment of own Legionaries) only happened in the XIXth Legion; How do the banished ones behave after it? We saw the Ashen Claws going rampage / renegade, while the Carcharodons stayed loyal. Were there more of them? Potential as a background for more of such chapters / forces?

 

Rob showed us that he's capable of dealing the Carcharodons and now, the Ashen Claws. Further, he recently did an audio about Perturabo, which seems to be decent, as well.

 

Not saying that only this particular battle should be covered. But somewhat of an episodic journey of the Terran XIXth Legion leading up to Gate-42 could be interesting.

 

IMHO, it's more interesting and has more potential as a story than some arc conclusions we recently got.

 

I'm biased, of course, as I'm highly intrigued about that event and especially its outcome. To be honest, I'd considered writing about a Terran conclave of the XIX right before Gate-42 as a contribution to Black Library's contest. So yeah, it's wish listing. ;)