Where’s Luthor

[Kastor Krieg]

 

 

The Lion is fully healed? Guilliman was the injured one. The Lion was just in coma/slumber.

And Luther escaped? How do you escape stasis? Did Gav Thorpe wrote the fluff from our Codex?

 

Didnt he and Luther beat the living crap out of each other? Thats how I remember it anyway.

Yep. Lion’s always been described as “wounds long healed”.

 

I think in the old stuff it was - Lion beats Luther but can’t/won’t land killing blow, Luther psychic attacks Lion, Lion goes into coma, Luther realises what he’s done and goes nuts. That old chestnut.

Wouldn’t be surprised if the fluff moves away from that, it is pretty cliche.

 

No he hasn't. He's been sleeping in stasis, healing slowly, wounded from the epic Chaos vs Primarch battle that destroyed Caliban and only in the 6ed BRB he was suddenly described as having healed already and maybe awaiting his time to return. 7ed BRB had no mention like that, neither did the DA dex and now he's "long healed and ready to get up". It's a big change.

 

And totally the Changeling ensured that Luther could get out. After all Caliban with the mutating beasties and all that happened among the DA, the secrets within secrets, it was all Tzeentch's ploy.

[Lord_Ikka]

Question- What ever happened to Luther's sword? I know that it was recovered, but I don't remember what happened to it afterwards.

[Gabriel Santar]

THE LUTH IS LOOSE.

 

 

Question- What ever happened to Luther's sword? I know that it was recovered, but I don't remember what happened to it afterwards.

 

According to Lexicanum, after being recovered from an Eldar world where the Fallen had dropped it off it was just 'returned to the Rock'. Was anything about relics being stolen from the Rock's armouries' mentioned in Wrath of Magnus? Might have been a sneaky way to hint at the Fallen getting 'new ' rules at the time.

[Stoic Raptor]

He's drinking coffee on the French Riviera with a retired Bruce Wayne.

He had to get in line in time for some of those sweet Black Friday doorbuster deals.

He's gone to find where Carmen Sandiego really is.

 

Let's see... Luther, locked in a cell, barking mad, ranting on about how "He" is coming... I think I've seen him in a couple Zack Snyder films recently.

[Xenith]

What if the Lions soul was split into shards in the battle with Luther? Kind of like Magnus's. It parallels the broken sword, and that only the emperor can reforge the sword/the lion. Plausible for the Lions soul shards to find purchase in a nearby cypher or luther...

[Corswain]

 

 

Yep. Lion’s always been described as “wounds long healed”.

 

No he hasn't. He's been sleeping in stasis, healing slowly, wounded from the epic Chaos vs Primarch battle that destroyed Caliban and only in the 6ed BRB he was suddenly described as having healed already and maybe awaiting his time to return. 7ed BRB had no mention like that, neither did the DA dex and now he's "long healed and ready to get up". It's a big change.

Really!? I could have sworn it was in the old 4th Edition at least, but I got rid of that a while ago. It just seems like something that has been ingrained in my DA experience for so long.

6th and 7th codexes both definitely have him as “sleeping, wounds long healed.”

I didn’t think stasis was mentioned because they didn’t want him to be too close to Guilliman.

 

Anyway, this is actually th first plot development in 8th that I’m interested in.

[Warhead01]

It's different in the 2nd ed codex as well. 

 

"Buried even deeper within the rock is the final, greatest secret of the chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded chamber at the hart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the watchers in the dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against it's enemies." 
Page 14 last paragraph codex Angels of Death.

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

I refuse the believe that Cypher is anyone other than that young Knight of Lupus.

 

That guy's pretty dead

 

Is he? He is shown to be protected by the Watchers with a very powerful aura. Zahariel isn't shown to have killed him "on screen", and I believe that Astelan stated that Corswain was the one who killed Luther's Cypher (who is at the end of Angels of Caliban, Zahariel). Cypher is not a Psyker, and thus far Zahariel has not been shown to use his pistols, but he is wearing a mask to hide his face. There is too much saying that the Knight of Lupus is still Cypher unless something flat out states who current Cypher is.

[rendingon1+]

Question- What ever happened to Luther's sword? I know that it was recovered, but I don't remember what happened to it afterwards.

That rather short story with DA mauling the exodites?

IIRC the chaplain left it where he found it. Apparently it was a full-blown demon sword.

Edited December 11, 2017 by rendingon1+

[Phoebus]

I need to re-read the pertinent parts of both Robbie MacNiven's novel depicting those events and Wrath of Magnus. The Changeling releasing Luther is certainly an apropos move, but just as enticing is the notion that the Watchers in the Dark freed Luther. Remember, Luther has been repentant for a long, long time. Cypher was a crucial agent in Guilliman's success, and Luther could be the catalyst to bring home those Fallen who likewise showed remorse for their actions*. One could argue that the intent is for the Lion to be awoken when his legion is healed.

 

* A theme that goes back to the third edition. EDIT: to be clear, repentant Fallen is the theme I'm referring to; not Luther gathering the repentant Fallen.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Phoebus

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

 

Is he? He is shown to be protected by the Watchers with a very powerful aura. Zahariel isn't shown to have killed him "on screen", and I believe that Astelan stated that Corswain was the one who killed Luther's Cypher (who is at the end of Angels of Caliban, Zahariel). Cypher is not a Psyker, and thus far Zahariel has not been shown to use his pistols, but he is wearing a mask to hide his face. There is too much saying that the Knight of Lupus is still Cypher unless something flat out states who current Cypher is.

 

I may be wrong about it, and I can't cite the exact source, but I have a distinct memory of now-corrupted-Zahariel shooting him point blank with plasma when Cypher flew from the provoked fight and he chased him. I also seem to remember him removing the mask and uncovering his identity. That seems very much on-camera to me.

 

However, I concur with you, that the 'current Cypher' is probably not Zahariel, thus not exhibiting any psychic powers so far.

I'm saying 'probably' because there could still be reasons for, let's say Zahariel repenting and not using his powers because they're what corrupted him, but that's only a pet theory. We haven't seen all of the story yet, and it would be a bit cheap, just to reveal Cypher's current identiy, IMO. Ambiguity is one of the strengths of the setting, I think.

I am pretty sure about him, though, and if you want to know as well, click the nested spoiler!

[Cpt_Reaper]

 

I may be wrong about it, and I can't cite the exact source, but I have a distinct memory of now-corrupted-Zahariel shooting him point blank with plasma when Cypher flew from the provoked fight and he chased him. I also seem to remember him removing the mask and uncovering his identity. That seems very much on-camera to me.

 

However, I concur with you, that the 'current Cypher' is probably not Zahariel, thus not exhibiting any psychic powers so far.

I'm saying 'probably' because there could still be reasons for, let's say Zahariel repenting and not using his powers because they're what corrupted him, but that's only a pet theory. We haven't seen all of the story yet, and it would be a bit cheap, just to reveal Cypher's current identiy, IMO. Ambiguity is one of the strengths of the setting, I think.

I am pretty sure about him, though, and if you want to know as well, click the nested spoiler!

 

End of Chapter 29 in Angels of Caliban, Lord Cypher is beaten and on all fours before Zahariel and his "Mystai". Zahariel orders that nobody should find Cypher's body "only the stones will remember him." He walks away, not delivering the final blow himself.

 

This Cypher's supposed death is off screen. The Mystai are not as powerful as Zahariel with his Oroboros buddy so the Watchers could have saved Cypher. I'm not saying he is 100% confirmed alive, but I am saying that there is a massive chance his death may have been fabricated.

[Cpt. Bannockburn]

In this case you may be right about it. I guess, we'll see (or not, knowing GW ;) )

It certainly seems like a possibility, but I must say I severely disliked this holder of the title.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Hey, a broken clock is right twice a day. It would be the first time I've ever predicted right (GO AWAY BOLS!)

[Kastor Krieg]

I have to say I had an idea before that both "Luther" and "Cypher" are not actual entities (not the non-Astartes DA commander of Caliban and not the Knight of Lupus either), but shards of the Lion's psyche detached from him in the cataclysm of the planet coming asunder from the power of Chaos unleashed by the original Luther.

"Luther" being gone now means to me that the Lion slowly awakens and has simply "absorbed" that shard back. I would then assume that once he "absorbs" Cypher, he will awaken once again.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Nah, GW needs to create and sell minis; there’ll be more than one character here to be sure.

[Phoebus]

Just got done re-reading the pertinent part of Legacy of Russ. One of the Watchers in the Dark definitely stops the Changeling before it can get into any of the cells containing the Fallen. The interesting thing about that passage is that the way the Changeling perceives the Watcher makes the latter seem like a Pariah.

[CypherTheFallen]

I don't know about the whole soul shards idea, but I could see Luther being with the Lion or heading out to find Cypher for some unknown reasons. Edited December 12, 2017 by CypherTheFallen

[Interrogator Stobz]

I don’t think that the Lion and Luther are friends yet.

[Phoebus]

At the very least, the Lion was unwilling to kill Luther and Luther was genuinely contrite over his actions. I don't see Luther being a shard of the Lion (that strikes me as too Crimson King-ish), nor do I see Luther being able to rejoin the Dark Angels properly... but I do envision Luther achieving redemption through self-sacrifice, especially if that somehow leads to the salvation or unity of the Unforgiven and/or the Lion awakening.

[Warhead01]

Just got done re-reading the pertinent part of Legacy of Russ. One of the Watchers in the Dark definitely stops the Changeling before it can get into any of the cells containing the Fallen. The interesting thing about that passage is that the way the Changeling perceives the Watcher makes the latter seem like a Pariah.

Maybe the watchers are part of a third power. Not from the material universe or the warp but something else.  They as far as we know are localized exclusively to Caliban. It would seem reasonable to me that the rarity of their power, what ever it is that they represent or "work for", is scares in the universe.  Wouldn't the Emperor have taken notice of warp taint on Caliban as soon as he arrived?  (Given what the watchers are keeping locked up.) 

I'd like to see Luther come back and sacrifice himself to save the Lion. I think that would be a defining moment for the Lion and set him on the right course, what ever that is.  The death of Luther as a completely selfless act saving the Lion from himself and redeeming the both of them in a way.

I'd be interested to see more of the Lions motivations and more about just what he knows about the watchers and Caliban. 

 

 

[Phoebus]

You basically addressed the weakest point of the ongoing Dark Angels narrative.

 

Black Library feels that the secrecy that surrounds the Lion, Caliban, and the Chaotic taint that permeates the planet is a strong point. We know that the Lion and the Emperor knew something; that much is made clear by the actions that are simply alluded to in Fallen Angels, Angels of Caliban, and a couple of the shorts that came between. By using those concepts as they did, however, they left key characters unbalanced and incomplete. Let's look at Luther, for instance. Leaving aside his ridiculous behavior in Descent of Angels, Luther goes from contrite, reasonable, and well-meaning to budding sorcerer and student of Caliban's darkest secrets. This transformation is handled with what amounts to a movie's intermission. The Lion and the Emperor took very drastic steps to address Caliban's taint, but put in place apparently zero precautions in the event that their efforts - assuming the sorcerous rituals of the Terrans in Fallen Angels were sanctioned by the Emperor, which is a big if - failed. The Lord Cypher, who the authors try very hard to imply was the Lion's eyes on Caliban, apparently points Luther to sorcerous material... for no reason that is ever conveyed. It's all very conveniently set up for grand failure, except none of it makes sense.

 

The failures and fall of the other legions, even if never fully satisfying, at least make sense. Fulgrim was a narcissist, his warriors were prone to arrogance, and they were all seduced by a demon. Perturabo was a murderously resentful individual who coldly put his men through attrition grinders to prove a point. Konrad Curze was a psychopath who recruited vile criminals to man his legion. Angron was insane and his men were desperate to win his recognition. Mortarion missed the corruption of his First Captain but then nonetheless began courting powers he thought he could control. Magnus and his sons were defined by their hubris. Lorgar and his warriors willingly turned to Chaos. Alpharius and Omegon make a conscious choice to believe the Cabal.

 

The Lion? The Lion apparently recognizes the danger his planet poses but then puts in place absolutely terrible, amateur-hour contingencies. The apologies given by authors (and fans) or alluded to in the novels themselves are woeful. If you're so disconnected from people (the most common excuse for the Lion's most questionable decisions) that you can't see the point in direct lines of communication for The Worst-Case Scenario Pertaining To Your Legion Homeworld, then there's no way you can also be a strategic genius of a warlord.

[Syphid]

So I read through the codex and apparently

there are far more fallen than the DA first thought- that Luther essentially rebuilt the Legion on Caliban and that most of them actually survived the destruction of the planet and were lost in the warp. Now they are massing a force in the Nihilus sector (possibly lead by Luther himself, or the Daemon prince Marbas) that could pose a threat to the galaxy

 

Maybe it's just fluff, or maybe a sign of things to come? Cypher model being updated, the Fallen faction, and the Inner Circle rule affecting the Fallen keyword? Wouldn't that be something.

Edited December 17, 2017 by Syphid

[Robbienw]

Could be an indication of a future release. If that happened then surely the Lion would awake to meet the threat!!

 

Nothing might come of it for a few years though, sometimes these build up type hints take a few years to come to fruition.

 

In regard to numbers of the fallen, if i remember correctly in one of the DA heresy novels, it is stated that there where 30000 new recruits on Caliban at the time of the outbreak of the Heresy, plus a few thousand other Dark Angels who were trainers/instructors and garrison forces.

 

Now we know that some of the Dark Angels on Caliban remained loyal to the lion and were imprisoned, presumably most of them died before or during the destruction of Caliban. And undoubtedly some Fallen would have been killed during the destruction of Caliban. And presumably in the 10k years since Caliban was destroyed, the Dark Angels must have killed off a few thousand fallen.

 

So it's not going to be 30k Fallen gathering out there, taking into account all of the above. Could easily be 10 to 15k though. That's a legion sized force as the studio refers to it in codexes, they usually say 10k upwards (they don't usuallyacknowledge the 100k+ number in BL and FW fluff)

Edited December 17, 2017 by Robbienw

[Syphid]

Now we know that some of the Dark Angels on Caliban remained loyal to the lion and were imprisoned, presumably most of them died before or during the destruction of Caliban.

I like to think that at least some of the loyal Dark Angels on Caliban survived long enough to provide the gene seed that founded the Angels of Absolution. My pet theory, anyways :)