Where’s Luthor

[shandwen]

You basically addressed the weakest point of the ongoing Dark Angels narrative.

 

Black Library feels that the secrecy that... Alpharius and Omegon make a conscious choice to believe the Cabal.

 

The Lion? The Lion apparently recognizes the danger his planet poses but then puts in place absolutely terrible, amateur-hour contingencies. The apologies given by authors (and fans) or alluded to in the novels themselves are woeful. If you're so disconnected from people (the most common excuse for the Lion's most questionable decisions) that you can't see the point in direct lines of communication for The Worst-Case Scenario Pertaining To Your Legion Homeworld, then there's no way you can also be a strategic genius of a warlord.

As much as it is off-topic I feel the need to say A&O didn't believe the Cabal, they rather believed they could use the Cabal for their own ends.

Also, I wouldn't say that there is evidence that the Lion (or even the Emperor) knew of just how bad the corruption was, as some of the books speak to how the Order's crusade had temporary cleaned the planet before the reunion. They probably both thought that whatever had happened would starve as the huge majority had been erased.

[Robbienw]

 

Now we know that some of the Dark Angels on Caliban remained loyal to the lion and were imprisoned, presumably most of them died before or during the destruction of Caliban.

I like to think that at least some of the loyal Dark Angels on Caliban survived long enough to provide the gene seed that founded the Angels of Absolution. My pet theory, anyways :)

A good theory, I like it :)

[Malakye]

Well at least we know at which point Luther went missing, I was under the impression it was during the Fenris incident prior to the codex dropping.

[Phoebus]

So I read through the codex and apparently

there are far more fallen than the DA first thought- that Luther essentially rebuilt the Legion on Caliban and that most of them actually survived the destruction of the planet and were lost in the warp. Now they are massing a force in the Nihilus sector (possibly lead by Luther himself, or the Daemon prince Marbas) that could pose a threat to the galaxy

 

Maybe it's just fluff, or maybe a sign of things to come? Cypher model being updated, the Fallen faction, and the Inner Circle rule affecting the Fallen keyword? Wouldn't that be something.

 

The last Dark Angels-centric Horus Heresy novel, Angels of Caliban, had Luther at the head of 30,000 Calibanite Space Marines. This is obviously in the waning years of the Heresy, but there's every possibility that he had significantly more warriors by the time the Lion came home.

 

Anyways, this is one of those lore tidbits that I ordinarily would be excited about but nowadays leaves me frustrated. Why? Because it might be another case of the game lore people not talking with the Black Library lore people. We're two years removed from the guy most trusted by the IP people with Dark Angels lore saying that the First Legion was split into 12 Chapters. I'm willing to accept that the last couple of years of the Heresy, the fighting after Terra, the initial ambush over Caliban, and the fighting over and on the planet bled the Dark Angels Legion dry. Assuming a literal reading of the Codex (something that admittedly is not wise when it comes to background lore), though, ...

 

... the Fallen are now now marshalling in legion strength - despite them losing the fight on Caliban. That only makes sense if the gaming side of the house is still holding on to the old definitions of "legions" as being 10,000-man units.

 

At this point, I'm inclined to go with Robbienw's thought: that the studio go by different figures, and that - for whatever reason - they're opting to contradict the lore Black Library and Forgeworld put out.

[Phoebus]

Shandwen,

 

Again, this comes down to the issues with the Dark Angels narrative. We're over 10 years past the original release of Descent of Angels, and all we've gotten is annual or biannual teasers and innuendo without any clarity as to what's going on. The editors and studio think that's a good idea because, at least in this case, they feel that adhering to a theme (secrecy!) is more important than having a cogent storyline, a plot with a sense of pace, context behind the decisions made by characters, and so on. All we can known in the end is that the Lion had tasked Cypher with something, that Luther and his companions believe that the Lion had knowledge of Caliban's taint, and that the Terran sorcerers conducting all those awful rituals were trying to banish the Chaotic taint at the core of Caliban.

 

I've lost faith that this storyline will be resolved in a manner that doesn't involve the main characters making a great many unfounded assumptions that lead to horrible decisions. I especially dread the day when it will be explained to us why the Lion sent Luther back to Caliban and stopped taking calls. There are going to be some monumental acts of mental gymnastics and stretches of logic involved in that one, and I'm pretty certain we will be told that it was, in fact, drama and a function of the primarchs' flaws "also being turned up to 11."

[Space Truckin]

You basically addressed the weakest point of the ongoing Dark Angels narrative.

 

Black Library feels that the secrecy that surrounds the Lion, Caliban, and the Chaotic taint that permeates the planet is a strong point. We know that the Lion and the Emperor knew something; that much is made clear by the actions that are simply alluded to in Fallen Angels, Angels of Caliban, and a couple of the shorts that came between. By using those concepts as they did, however, they left key characters unbalanced and incomplete. Let's look at Luther, for instance. Leaving aside his ridiculous behavior in Descent of Angels, Luther goes from contrite, reasonable, and well-meaning to budding sorcerer and student of Caliban's darkest secrets. This transformation is handled with what amounts to a movie's intermission. The Lion and the Emperor took very drastic steps to address Caliban's taint, but put in place apparently zero precautions in the event that their efforts - assuming the sorcerous rituals of the Terrans in Fallen Angels were sanctioned by the Emperor, which is a big if - failed. The Lord Cypher, who the authors try very hard to imply was the Lion's eyes on Caliban, apparently points Luther to sorcerous material... for no reason that is ever conveyed. It's all very conveniently set up for grand failure, except none of it makes sense.

 

The failures and fall of the other legions, even if never fully satisfying, at least make sense. Fulgrim was a narcissist, his warriors were prone to arrogance, and they were all seduced by a demon. Perturabo was a murderously resentful individual who coldly put his men through attrition grinders to prove a point. Konrad Curze was a psychopath who recruited vile criminals to man his legion. Angron was insane and his men were desperate to win his recognition. Mortarion missed the corruption of his First Captain but then nonetheless began courting powers he thought he could control. Magnus and his sons were defined by their hubris. Lorgar and his warriors willingly turned to Chaos. Alpharius and Omegon make a conscious choice to believe the Cabal.

 

The Lion? The Lion apparently recognizes the danger his planet poses but then puts in place absolutely terrible, amateur-hour contingencies. The apologies given by authors (and fans) or alluded to in the novels themselves are woeful. If you're so disconnected from people (the most common excuse for the Lion's most questionable decisions) that you can't see the point in direct lines of communication for The Worst-Case Scenario Pertaining To Your Legion Homeworld, then there's no way you can also be a strategic genius of a warlord.

 

Haven't logged into the BnC for 3-4 months but had to log in to just say THANK YOU.   You put my exact thoughts to pen perfectly.   

 

It quite frankly scares me that the audience can see this yet the authors and Black Library can't.  Or maybe they do and just don't care.  And like the taint of chaos these thoughts have now permeated my psyche and  I just don't care either.   I can't even be bothered to find torrents of the novels or download them from russian websites.

 

Some might say well why are you here even posting this.

Honestly I don't know.  Maybe I still care or cared about the setting at one point.  I guess might call that passion.  Just like in any relationship that too will fade with time.  Or till the next shiney plastic box set is released.  Oh look Necromunda looks nice. 

[Space Truckin]

 I especially dread the day when it will be explained to us why the Lion sent Luther back to Caliban and stopped taking calls. There are going to be some monumental acts of mental gymnastics and stretches of logic involved in that one, and I'm pretty certain we will be told that it was, in fact, drama and a function of the primarchs' flaws "also being turned up to 11."

 

  I seem to remember a throw away comment made my a BL writer that frequents this site   describing that writing for the Dark Angels 'as a poisoned chalice'.   This is probably why.

 

funny how this comes back around, yet is never addressed by GW. 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/325394-im-having-a-crisis-of-faith-help/?p=4488101

 

edit:  blue wizard needs coffee

Edited December 18, 2017 by Space Truckin

[Lord_Caerolion]

To be fair, it has to be remembered that warp communication isn't really an exact science. You have an unstable psyker telepathically screaming metaphor across the galaxy, in the hopes that another unstable psyker will receive the message in time, and be able to decode the dream-logic into a coherent message. You can't really have a cross-galactic phone call.

 

Who knows, given the Lion had such a military/feudal mindset, it could be an example of "I trust Luther with my life, he is my emissary on Caliban, I trust his actions, and I trust him to carry out the orders given to him by his liege".

[Phoebus]

Past a certain point in the Heresy, I agree, travel and communication through the Empyrean becomes increasingly unreliable - and, in many cases, borderline impossible. That said, I think Fallen Angels makes it pretty clear that the Lion simply wasn't interested in hearing communications from Caliban. There was an argument to be made that the reader isn't privy to the specifics behind Luther's return to Caliban at the end of Descent of Angels, and that the Lion may have been giving him a shot at redemption... but, again, Fallen Angels makes it rather clear from the get-go that Luther believes he's been exiled for good. His subsequent despair correlates with Nemiel's observations about the Lion, Luther, and the rest of the Dark Angels on Caliban. It's just clumsy, and what frustrates me is that it feels clumsy by design: Laurie Goulding has done an admirable job of making the Horus Heresy series more cohesive and unified*, but he has consistently defended the more mind-bending decisions primarchs make along generalizations like (and these are his words) their flaws are also turned up to 11.

 

I'm rambling, I apologize.

 

Back to the topic, I'm still reading through the Codex, but it certainly seems as if Luther was freed by the forces of Chaos, and the implication appears to be that he's unifying the Fallen in opposition to the Unforgiven (and the Imperium). Against that, we have a few editions' worth of a repentant Luther awaiting the Lion's forgiveness. Within that context, what is it that the Daemon Prince Marbas wants with him? Was the Dark Oracle lying all this time? Is he unhinged or corrupted enough that, despite those claims, he could be lured back to treachery?

[Angel of Solitude]

Back to the topic, I'm still reading through the Codex, but it certainly seems as if Luther was freed by the forces of Chaos, and the implication appears to be that he's unifying the Fallen in opposition to the Unforgiven (and the Imperium). 

 

I love how much of a mess this is going to make. The lore states that Azrael is the only person who knows that Luther still lives. Imagine how much of a rift this will create when the other members of the Inner Circle - particularly the other Grand Masters - rock up to a battlefield to find the biggest host of Unforgiven ever encountered is led by somebody who everybody thought was long dead. And then Azrael then tells them that he's actually been locked up in the Rock all this time, but managed to escape on Azrael's watch...

[Cpt_Reaper]

To be fair, Ezekiel knows about Luthor as well know following the events of the Legacy of Caliban series.

[depthcharge12]

In light of these events, Luther could actually be seeking his forgiveness - hear me out. Luther wants to recreate the battle of Caliban that started all of this by gathering his host for one last battle. He will understandably reign in all the disparate Fallen (with exception to the ones that have joined the BL) to one spot to create a force large enough to challenge the Unforgiven.

 

This will cause a psychic backlash in the warp causing the Lion to reawaken and lead his sons in retaliation. Luther understands that the Unforgiven will receive catharsis by eliminating the Fallen in one fell swoop as well as get the guidance they so crave. Luther will face off in one final battle where he will die to the Lion as he should have so the cycle can end and so he can find peace.

 

/theorycraft

[Warhead01]

I like it. I was thinking Luther was engineering something, creating a dire situation in order to gain forgiveness from the Lion in the end. I think he is capable of creating such a situation, he may be insane but he's had a long time to dream something up. Maybe the fallen are meant to return to the fold. I'm interested in just what this could do the to dark Angels and how much this could force them to change. Of course if the Lion does wake up the change they will be forced to make will be difficult and split the chapter yet again, which would be fantastic. 
Imagine the inner circle splitting and half of them finding themselves on the wrong side of things and what this would do to them. A huge chunk of the chapter finding it's loyalties divided (again), the paradox continues we could always have the fallen in that way.  This opens room for new characters to emerge as well. 
 

[Lord_Ikka]

I want to know more about this Fallen Daemon Prince, Marbas. Seems like he is a major player in this little saga, being the one who frees Luther. Where did he come from and who was he before, those are questions I want answered.

[Allart01]

It doesn't matter who Marbas is; he will pay for his sins.

If I had to bet about Luther, tho, It'd be safe to assume he is with this new Daemon Prince dude, somewhere in the Warp, with their Fallen army.

 

I'm positively curious to see where this is going!

Wake up dad, your kids need you.

Edited December 19, 2017 by The_Bloody

[Angel of Solitude]

I want to know more about this Fallen Daemon Prince, Marbas. Seems like he is a major player in this little saga, being the one who frees Luther. Where did he come from and who was he before, those are questions I want answered.

Zahariel, perhaps? He's yet to be accounted for at the end of the Horus Heresy, has likely fallen to Chaos, and with his strong psychic potential, could possibly have spent the last 10k years rising up the ranks to Daemon Prince status.

[Allart01]

 

I want to know more about this Fallen Daemon Prince, Marbas. Seems like he is a major player in this little saga, being the one who frees Luther. Where did he come from and who was he before, those are questions I want answered.

Zahariel, perhaps? He's yet to be accounted for at the end of the Horus Heresy, has likely fallen to Chaos, and with his strong psychic potential, could possibly have spent the last 10k years rising up the ranks to Daemon Prince status.

 

 

He is also the only one, with the Primarch, to have killed a calibanite lion.

Could his daemonic appearence match this past deed?

An interesting theory, for sure.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

 

I want to know more about this Fallen Daemon Prince, Marbas. Seems like he is a major player in this little saga, being the one who frees Luther. Where did he come from and who was he before, those are questions I want answered.

Zahariel, perhaps? He's yet to be accounted for at the end of the Horus Heresy, has likely fallen to Chaos, and with his strong psychic potential, could possibly have spent the last 10k years rising up the ranks to Daemon Prince status.

 

 

He is also the only one, with the Primarch, to have killed a calibanite lion.

Could his daemonic appearence match this past deed?

An interesting theory, for sure.

 

I've just thought about how the theory gets even better. Some theories place Zahariel as the current Cypher, given the end of Angels of Caliban. However, what if at that point, two Cyphers were created: the Lion's loyal Cypher, and Luther's fallen Cypher (i.e. Zahariel)? This would make the real Cypher's purpose to be to hunt out the false Cypher and seek vengeance for the destruction of Caliban. He knows that fallen Cypher has ascended to Daemon Princehood, and the Lion Sword that he carries is the only weapon capable of killing him...

Edited December 19, 2017 by Angel of Solitude

[Helias_Tancred]

Bell of Lost Souls has leaked the final passage in the codex and their big reveal is that the Lion is fully healed (like he has been since 6th). But they missed the actual big reveal in the same passage.

 

Apparently Luthor is no longer on the rock.

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/12/40k-the-dark-angels-final-secret.html

 

‘Yet Luthor is gone now, escaped by unknown means to unclear ends’

 

I think they are suggesting the Changeling released him?

[Helias_Tancred]

In addition since we're throwing out our two coppers .....

 

1. Cypher is Zahariel

 

2. Luther was freed by the Changeling.

 

3. As the new lore states, in describing a vision that Ezekiel has, the Fallen are gathering in near legion numbers.

 

 

If you add all of that up you can see how it builds towards a Lion El' Jonson release :)

[Corswain]

With Cypher, Luther and Astelan all on the loose......Fallen Codex? Solid HQ choices. :)

[m_r_parker]

In addition since we're throwing out our two coppers .....

 

1. Cypher is Zahariel

 

I think I'm more onboard with 40k Cypher not being Zahariel. Sure we know that at the end of Angels of Caliban that Z took on the mantle of Lord Cypher, but from what we've seen of the 40k Cypher he doesn't appear to be a psyker, and Z isn't much of a gunslinger...

[ShadowCore67]

2. Luther was freed by the Changeling.

 

 

Didn't Marbas free Luther?

[Phoebus]

In addition since we're throwing out our two coppers .....

 

1. Cypher is Zahariel

 

2. Luther was freed by the Changeling.

 

3. As the new lore states, in describing a vision that Ezekiel has, the Fallen are gathering in near legion numbers.

 

 

If you add all of that up you can see how it builds towards a Lion El' Jonson release

 

1. It's worth remembering that Luther implies that his own Lord Cypher (which would be Zahariel) was slain by the "houndlord" (which would be Corswain) - using the Lion Sword, at that. Hmmmm.... who carries the Lion Sword nowadays?

 

2. The Changeling was stopped by a Watcher in the Dark. He made it to the dungeon where the Fallen were held, but was not able to open a single cell.

 

Agreed with your closing point!

[bevulf]

I thought that the Changeling was stopped after releasing Luther and before heading directly into the deepest levels of the Rock where Lion's chamber is. That was when Watcher appeared and stopped him from uncovering the greatest secret of the chapter. Correct me if I am wrong.