Predator points cost error?

[Panzer]

In my Enhanced digital version the Baal Predator has both the Predator and the Baal Predator Keyword. I have no doubt that killshot works with Baal Predators.

 

They are still way to expensive I think. And what is up with putting heavy weapons that can't shoot when advancing on a super fast assault tank? This unit just seem awkward to me. Buy normal assbacks and fill them with angry, red marines, I say.

 

Then you should read the Stratagem again.

It's not about whether the Baal Predator has the Predator keyword or not. We know it has both. However the stratagem doesn't mention the Predator keyword. It mentions the Predator unit.

 

It's the same case as with the Helbrute stratagem in the CSM Codex.

I don't get why we have to have this discussion with every new Codex release. GW even mentioned it in the CSM FAQ. They print things in a specific way for a reason. Bold for keywords, non-bold for units.

Unless they errata it (which I don't necessarily see happen) it's clear that the killshot stratagem does NOT work with Baal Predators!

[Kappel]

I quote here the Stratagem from same Digital Codex:

 

"Use this Stratagem in your shooting phase if a Predator from your army is within 6" of 2 other friendly Blood Angels Predators. If you do so, you can add 1 to the wound rolls and damage for all of the Predator's attacks that targets Monsters or Vehicles this phase."

Edited December 14, 2017 by Kappel

[Kappel]

 

In my Enhanced digital version the Baal Predator has both the Predator and the Baal Predator Keyword. I have no doubt that killshot works with Baal Predators.

 

They are still way to expensive I think. And what is up with putting heavy weapons that can't shoot when advancing on a super fast assault tank? This unit just seem awkward to me. Buy normal assbacks and fill them with angry, red marines, I say.

Then you should read the Stratagem again.

It's not about whether the Baal Predator has the Predator keyword or not. We know it has both. However the stratagem doesn't mention the Predator keyword. It mentions the Predator unit.

 

It's the same case as with the Helbrute stratagem in the CSM Codex.

I don't get why we have to have this discussion with every new Codex release. GW even mentioned it in the CSM FAQ. They print things in a specific way for a reason. Bold for keywords, non-bold for units.

Unless they errata it (which I don't necessarily see happen) it's clear that the killshot stratagem does NOT work with Baal Predators!

 

...trying to find the errata now, btw - I admit there might be something I am missing here! Are you referring to: Codex: CHAOS SPACE MARINES Official Update Version 1.0? from August? 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Kappel

[Panzer]

I quote here the Stratagem from same Digital Codex:

 

"Use this Stratagem in your shooting phase if a Predator from your army is within 6" of 2 other friendly Blood Angels Predators. If you do so, you can add 1 to the wound rolls and damage for all of the Predator's attacks that targets Monsters or Vehicles this phase."

 

There is no mention of any kind of unit. Predators can't even act in units anymore. They get the stratagem because of their proximity not because they are a unit, as I read it. 

It seems you simply don't understand how Keywords work so I'll explain it to you.

If rules talk about keywords the words are printed bold. Like this -> Blood Angels

If rules talk about a specific unit the words are printed normal. Like this -> Predators

 

If it were "Blood Angels Predators" then it would apply to the Baal Predator as well since it would specifically talk about Blood Angels units with the Predator keyword. However since it's printed "Blood Angels Predators" it talks about THE Blood Angels Predator unit which is a different one than the Blood Angels Baal Predator unit.

[Kappel]

Good explanation sfPanzer, now I get your point. Thanks. 

 

I think what confused me was actually the wording 'unit'. English is not my language, and my understanding of unit was that it describes something like 'squad' or 'formation'. Which was possible in 7th. But unit here is a reference to that specific type of tank. My bad. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Kappel

[Panzer]

It's okay, I'm glad we understood eachother in the end. :)

[Spagunk]

Since I am sick and tired of everyone arguing about the Baal Preds aren't predators for Kill shot reasons, I made this helpful guide. You are free to share this to anyone who wants to be a douche about it:

 

There is no such thing as a "Blood Angel Predator". There is a BAAL Predator, Regular Predators and that is it. So Blood Angels is the faction keyword while Predator is the unit keyword. It is bolded to emphasis that it doesn't affect non Blood Angel predators so you can't use two of the same in a soup army.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Spagunk

[Charlo]

Spagunk, you can create an image and say people are being douche's but rules as written you CANNOT use Killshot with Baal Predators.

 

Also, there is such a thing as a BLOOD ANGELS Predator, which is exactly what the stratagem calls out.

 

For clarity, it's the same argument going on in the Chaos section about Fire Frenzy Stratagem and the Forge World Dreads (Helbrute) and GW confirmed that, as it is the unit name "Helbrute" and not the key word "HELBRUTE" the Forge World Contemptors, Leviathans etc cannot use the stratagem.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Charlo

[Panzer]

Since I am sick and tired of everyone arguing about the Baal Preds aren't predators for Kill shot reasons, I made this helpful guide. You are free to share this to anyone who wants to be a douche about it:

 

<snip>

 

There is no such thing as a "Blood Angel Predator". There is a BAAL Predator, Regular Predators and that is it. So Blood Angels is the faction keyword while Predator is the unit keyword. It is bolded to emphasis that it doesn't affect non Blood Angel predators so you can't use two of the same in a soup army.

Unfortunately you would need to understand how keywords work to make such a guide properly. Read my post above. I explained how it works. Predator is NOT the keyword in the Stratagem since it's not printed bold. Period.

 

 

[Jolemai]

Keep it civil please. Edited December 14, 2017 by Jolemai

[Jolemai]

Better yet, take it to the OR :)

[Charlo]

No need to, it's very clear!

[Morticon]

No need to...

 

I think the mods will make that call, Charlo.  

 

As requested...please keep it civil ad supportive. 

[Charlo]

Fair enough - Apologies!

[Remtek]

From CSM faq: We can see bolded text in caps refers to keyword. (This is just an example, there are many examples of this throughout the books.

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword1.png

 

From the Stormraven, its referring to keyword ( for example you can put Forgeworld dreads in  a flyer.

 

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword2.png

 

 

Lets look at the whirlwind, you can see the Name of the unit is not Bolded, but the keyword below is bolded.

 

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword3.png

 

And the stray refers to the specific whirlwind datasheet, since it is not bolded. The land speeder is bolded, so you could use Land Speeders, Land speeder storms or Forgeworld land speeders to buff the codex whirlwind. (But you can't buff a whirlwind scorpius.)

 

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword4.png

 

Back to kill shot, we can see it refers to the Predator datasheet as a requirement. The only key word requirement is BLOOD ANGELS, so it must be a regular predator with the BLOOD ANGELS, faction keyword

 

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword5.png

 

 

I think GW could of done a better job of adding the mention of keyword in strats (as you see they do in the top image), it makes things confusing. If you disagree just ask your opponent what he thinks and play it like that. 

 

I'm sure GW will address both killshot and point cost in our faq that should be out within a week or two. 

 

Edit: 

To further confirm 

 

http://remtek.be/40k/rules/keyword6.png

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by Remtek

[Riot Earp]

RAW it is clear. Thank you for pointing this out. I ask me just why the Baal Preds have the extra Keyword "Predator".

Question is adressed to GW and the FAQ end of the week will show us how GW want to work it.

 

I guess it will stay just for the normal Predator but we can dream, can´t we? 

[Charlo]

I hope they change it....

 

Having Baals that are wounding most vehicles on a 4+ with 2D HB & AC seems pretty gnarly.

[Panzer]

RAW it is clear. Thank you for pointing this out. I ask me just why the Baal Preds have the extra Keyword "Predator".

Question is adressed to GW and the FAQ end of the week will show us how GW want to work it.

 

I guess it will stay just for the normal Predator but we can dream, can´t we? 

Same reason why there are other not used keywords. It's so GW can easily add rules that work only for specific kind of units without having to write a huge paragraph of text or to errata all the units datasheets they want to be affected by it. ;)

[Riot Earp]

Shame as i will drive two Autolas Preds and one Flamerbaal tonight into battle.

May the Orks taste promethium till they are burned to the last grot.

[Xenith]

Done to death, but a "Baal Predator" is both a "BAAL PREDATOR" and a "PREDATOR" however is not a "Predator".

 

A "Predator" is both a "Predator" and a "PREDATOR".

[9x19 Parabellum]

After reading the arguments, I'm inclined to agree that Killshot does not work, sadly, for Baal Predators.  That sucks, because I really wanted it to.  Yet another reason the Baal gets left on the shelf :-(

[Panzer]

Funny thing is that with the current point cost of the regular Predator in our Codex the Baal isn't that much worse. Just different loadout options lol

[Riot Earp]

Well i came with an casual list to an tournament preparation. Baal got smoked turn 1. :(

[Panzer]

In my experience something like a casual tournament is extremely hard to find. There's always someone who plays a less casual list and wrecks face. Be part of that a few times and you automatically begin to make your list less casual the next time as well. And so it snowballs.

 

What I mean to say is....don't take casual lists to any kind of tournament and expect things to go well. :D

[Ishagu]

Yeah. A local store held a casual tournament. That didn't stop one guy from bringing a tzeentch brimstone horror spam list.

Ironically player fun ratings scored you more points than wins so even though he won every game he didn't even finish top 3. Ha