Betrayer is SO GOOD!

[Blackcadian]

Man, I‘ve recently picked up Betrayer by ADB because I heard it was good, and because I kind of always liked the World Eaters for their pre-heresy color scheme but never for their fluff. Too much crazyness and blood lust, too much barbaric horde and too little organization and tactics and working together like a proper legion. So I WANTED to like them, but never really did.

 

Boy does that book change things. I mean anyone who’s read any of ADBs books know he’s really good. I didnt like the Night Lords before reading his omnibus either. But he actually got me to like the World Eatersa lot now, and I’m even dangerously close to start painting my second hand Blood Angel army in white and blue with icons and decals of the 12th (Krautscientist bears some blame as well with his incredible Eternal Hunt). Oh the heresy!

 

Anyway, enough mindless rambling - if you havent read Betrayer and have even just a passing interest in the World Eaters legion I can highly recommend it! There’s way more to them than mindless slaughter, and it’s great to read about the how and why they came to be what they are today.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Blackcadian

[Warpmiss]

Agreed! I never cared much for the WE and their bloodlust and skull-collecting but I had never read much lore on them beyond that either. I didn't care much about Angron either when I started Reading the HH and he showed up in Istvaan. Ohhh boy, how things have changed for me after reading Betrayer!

 

I was hoping to get to know the Nightlords as well through the HH novels but I think I will have to go straight to ADB's Nightlords trilogy since it's considered a fan-favorite in the 40k community. Plus, it's ADB!

[Commissar K.]

Its great and WE where always the best anyway ;)

[Khornestar]

Best story about the best legion, for sure.

[Scribe]

I'd actually rate it as one of the top...3 or so BL offerings.

 

Betrayer, Wrath of Iron, Path of Heaven?

 

Something like that anyway.

 

Its an amazing book though.

[Excessus]

It's such a lovely story and it really fleshed out the WE as more than just mindless beasts. Lotara is awesome as well! <3

 

Man that beating at the end, wonderful! :D

[THUNDERFISTS]

^What Excessus said. The ending is truly the blood-coated icing on a delicious cake of HH goodness.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Eh. Picked it up earlier in the year, and can't say I agree. Is it 'bad'? No, certainly not. But does it have flaws? Oh dear me yes.

 

There's entire chunks of the book which just seem to be, for want of a better term, filler. Like the stuff with the Ember Wolves command crew. That just seemed to go nowhere. I was also somewhat saddened to see the vaunted ADB continue the trend of Imperator Titans being kinda useless and victims of the Worf Effect every time they appear (seriously, the only Imperator I can recall that doesn't go down like a chump is the Dies Irae, because it already had been wrecked in 40k, when it was first introduced). The Ember Wolves in general bothered me a tad, great idea (Warhound only Scout/Pack Hunter Legion), but with how amazingly effective those Ursus harpoon things were, why are they apparently the only Titan Legion using them (same thing for the Ursus Claws on the ships too really)?

 

I found Argel Tal's obsession with bringing Cyrene back to life strange (but then I was never as enamoured with Tal as some were), and the resurrection itself seemed to be only there to set up another story, MCU style (a trend I'm just kinda sick of now, thanks to Marvel). It was also weird that was the trigger for Erebus to off him, given his increasingly antagonistic relationship overall with the Chaplain.

 

The entire 'Night of the Wolf' thing? Not bad in and of itself, but the sheer volume of arguments and vitriol it's spawned/propagated (and seemingly only further entrenched the Wolf fan/anti-fan divide Abnett spawned with Prospero Burns) kinda makes me wish it hadn't been dreamt up.

 

Ultimately though? It's biggest failure personally was that it didn't sell me on how the WEs have survived, let alone been so apparently successful. They're consistently portrayed as too mad and kill crazy for any real tactics or command and control. Even Khârn 'the sensible one' frequently finds himself in places not even knowing where he is, let alone the men nominally under his command. The worst of it was the showdown with the UM shield wall, where the successful tactic seemed to be 'try again, only angrier'. The Wolves at Malkoya, The Ultras at both Armatura and Nuceria, all should have taken the WEs apart like the US Marines did to Japanese Banzai charges, because they aren't mad and are still capable of tactics, coordination etc.

 

Now, this isn't to say it was all bad. There were certainly some very good moments, such as Lorgar's showdown with Gulliman and realisation that he'd completely misjudged his brother before the Heresy. Lhorke worked extremely well, and managed to nicely encapsulate what the War Hounds lost with Angron and their transition into the World Eaters. It did ultimately work as a character piece for Angron too. Plus ABD remains a highly talented wordsmith, so it's rarely boring to read his stuff, even if I don't necessarily like the ideas behind it.

 

But then, perhaps I'd just seen the book hyped up too often on the forums before I read it.

[Commissar K.]

Well I don't think all find the Ursus Claws or hunting designs all to good. There is a feral aspect within World Eaters and their followers that also leads to some mad to stupid tactics. Certainly not something that should be adapted to all. The same really applies to the Butcher's Nails too. It is wonderful for close combat but in reality it makes the tactical genius that a Space Marine has moot. In many ways the World Eaters are at some points just akin to Orks or Tyranids, melee killing for the sake of it losing eye for the bigger picture. 

There is an additional reason to why Tal was removed, which is later explained (not in Betrayer) as in order to allign the World Eaters completely with Khorne the madness that Khârn could contain thanks to Tal should be "freed" better put, removing Khârn from any regular friendship would mean he'd be a more succesful warrior for Khorne.

As is explained in the book itself it actually works out as to why the World Eaters where so effective with their seemfully crazy approaches, the reason being that it's explained several times that the whole battlefield lies thick with a fog of war. There is very little to shoot if you arn't able to visualize your targets in time. So this is explained but maby you missed it? 
All in all I think all works for the HH appeal to fans of a particular Legion so while Ive read the books revolving around World Eaters I know very little about the HH stories on other Legions. So in the end it's fan fiction to me and if you find the whole melee/gladatorial appeal of World Eaters boring I doubt anyone would like Betrayer as much as the fans of this concept.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Well I don't think all find the Ursus Claws or hunting designs all to good. There is a feral aspect within World Eaters and their followers that also leads to some mad to stupid tactics.

 

While I agree with the latter (that's kind of my problem with them), I'd say the book does show the Ursus Claws to be pretty good. They directly allow the Warhounds of the Ember Wolves to compete with Battle and Emperor Titans, opponents that should be relatively untroubled by the lighter weight Scout Titans. The void ones? They're a way of facilitating boarding actions, a forte of the Space Marines, and seem to work pretty well. Granted I'm not saying every Legion should be packing them, but I can certainly see them finding favour with more direct Legions like the SoH, SWs, Scars and IWs, plus certain subdivisions of other Legions (Amit of the BAs, and Rann of the IFs I can certainly see liking the idea).

 

 

There is an additional reason to why Tal was removed, which is later explained (not in Betrayer) as in order to allign the World Eaters completely with Khorne the madness that Khârn could contain thanks to Tal should be "freed" better put, removing Khârn from any regular friendship would mean he'd be a more succesful warrior for Khorne.

See, this makes a certain amount of sense (and was touched on in the book) but Erebus directly states Tal's obsession with Cyrene was the final straw/deciding factor. Which I found jarring, but then I found Tal overall quite a jarring and disingenuous character overall (please note, that isn't a bad character, but I certainly didn't love him the way some readers seem to).

 

 

As is explained in the book itself it actually works out as to why the World Eaters where so effective with their seemfully crazy approaches, the reason being that it's explained several times that the whole battlefield lies thick with a fog of war. There is very little to shoot if you arn't able to visualize your targets in time. So this is explained but maby you missed it?

Not missed it, so much as 'didn't find the explanation' satisfactory'. We've seen so much combat from the perspective of other Legions, and they're fully able to coordinate, communicate and 'fight smart' relatively unencumbered by the 'fog of war'. We don't see Marines unable to visualise and shoot charging infantry. What's so special about the WEs (other than 'they're the protagonists this time') that prevents rival Legions from doing their thing and taking them apart like the dumb, armoured Orks they functionally become?

 

Again, I'll bring up the shieldwall example. Where was the fog of war there? It was literally 'Charge, die and fail. Charge again, only bloodied and angrier, now succeed'.

 

I could have accepted it if there was any thought, coordination or control displayed (the FW Black Books do a better job of this, for example, showing the WEs not eschewing tactics more complicated than 'go mad and hit with stick'). But the entire Legion, from Angron down just defaults to Leeroy Jenkins 'tactics' at every engagement. They're the Space Marine equivalent of a sack of angry wolverines. Throw them at a bunch of unprepared people, and there'll be chaos and mayhem. Throw them at prepared animal control officers, and it'll be a very different story.

 

 

It is wonderful for close combat but in reality it makes the tactical genius that a Space Marine has moot. In many ways the World Eaters are at some points just akin to Orks or Tyranids, melee killing for the sake of it losing eye for the bigger picture.

That's pretty much my point. You shouldn't be able to defeat a full Legion task force with Chainaxes alone. Because the WEs aren't that much better at stabbing than their peers, but their peers are that much better at everything else. Yet the WEs keep finding success despite following the directions of Zap Branigan's Big Book of War and fighting enemies of comparable power that definitely do know what they're doing. 

 

 

if you find the whole melee/gladatorial appeal of World Eaters boring I doubt anyone would like Betrayer as much as the fans of this concept.

That's the thing though. That concept isn't bad (40k Spartacus is a great starting point for a Primarch), and I certainly don't hate the WEs as a Legion (even though personally the snippets we've seen of the War Hounds are more my thing). I would just find them more believable if there was slightly less 'mindless rage' and a bit more savvy, and aware of the world beyond their blades (not all the time for everyone, but some, so it would be more believable these guys could actually plan and prosecute a war).

[Excessus]

 

I would just find them more believable if there was slightly less 'mindless rage' and a bit more savvy, and aware of the world beyond their blades (not all the time for everyone, but some, so it would be more believable these guys could actually plan and prosecute a war).

 

 

And I would love it if my Thousand Sons weren't all dust, but that's how it is. Besides, who says they can't plan and prosecute a campaign? They have discipline enough to fight it off when they're not in a battlezone, and secondary roles such as rhino drivers and stuff is probably filled by new inductees that haven't earned the nails yet.

[Khornestar]

I think the critiques are reasonable, as they mostly boil down to personal taste. Too much trying to make sense of the setting and the awesome nonsense within it reveals innumerable holes and reasons that things wouldn’t/shouldn’t work. Some suspension of disbelief is in order, but much like personal taste, that varies too.

 

In the end, I’m just happy to have stories about my favored Legion. I enjoy the best of them as much as any other literary works, and the bolter porn serves its purpose, too.

 

I’m just glad this was a casual conversation about a book as opposed to misguided fury over “ruining” something beloved that we’re all convinced we could have done better if given the chance.

[Commissar K.]

 

While I agree with the latter (that's kind of my problem with them), I'd say the book does show the Ursus Claws to be pretty good. They directly allow the Warhounds of the Ember Wolves to compete with Battle and Emperor Titans, opponents that should be relatively untroubled by the lighter weight Scout Titans. The void ones? They're a way of facilitating boarding actions, a forte of the Space Marines, and seem to work pretty well. Granted I'm not saying every Legion should be packing them, but I can certainly see them finding favour with more direct Legions like the SoH, SWs, Scars and IWs, plus certain subdivisions of other Legions (Amit of the BAs, and Rann of the IFs I can certainly see liking the idea).

-

 

 

Not missed it, so much as 'didn't find the explanation' satisfactory'. We've seen so much combat from the perspective of other Legions, and they're fully able to coordinate, communicate and 'fight smart' relatively unencumbered by the 'fog of war'. We don't see Marines unable to visualise and shoot charging infantry. What's so special about the WEs (other than 'they're the protagonists this time') that prevents rival Legions from doing their thing and taking them apart like the dumb, armoured Orks they functionally become?

 

Again, I'll bring up the shieldwall example. Where was the fog of war there? It was literally 'Charge, die and fail. Charge again, only bloodied and angrier, now succeed'.

 

I could have accepted it if there was any thought, coordination or control displayed (the FW Black Books do a better job of this, for example, showing the WEs not eschewing tactics more complicated than 'go mad and hit with stick'). But the entire Legion, from Angron down just defaults to Leeroy Jenkins 'tactics' at every engagement. They're the Space Marine equivalent of a sack of angry wolverines. Throw them at a bunch of unprepared people, and there'll be chaos and mayhem. Throw them at prepared animal control officers, and it'll be a very different story.

-

 

That's pretty much my point. You shouldn't be able to defeat a full Legion task force with Chainaxes alone. Because the WEs aren't that much better at stabbing than their peers, but their peers are that much better at everything else. Yet the WEs keep finding success despite following the directions of Zap Branigan's Big Book of War and fighting enemies of comparable power that definitely do know what they're doing. 

-

 

That's the thing though. That concept isn't bad (40k Spartacus is a great starting point for a Primarch), and I certainly don't hate the WEs as a Legion (even though personally the snippets we've seen of the War Hounds are more my thing). I would just find them more believable if there was slightly less 'mindless rage' and a bit more savvy, and aware of the world beyond their blades (not all the time for everyone, but some, so it would be more believable these guys could actually plan and prosecute a war).

 

Let me first say that you bring up a lot of good points but it's really important to understand the context of all these seperate pieces. As before a lot of it is covered before and after the Betrayer book. But first things first:

 

- Ursus Claws

The Ursus Claws where an invention of the World Eater techmarines and I believe others have not used it because they either saw no need for it or did not have the vessel to use it. To give said example, the Conquerer was the 3rd largest ship used in the Crusade. Only the one from the Ultramarines and Iron Warriors where larger. Both of these do not have the same melee combat preforance as World Eaters do. I tend to believe that size and weight would matter a lot here. This idea is proven to be grounded because Legio Audax' Titans possessed additional armour plating that was unique to Legio Audax, logically increasing their weight beyond that of an expected Warhound. In addition to that they where also unique in being the only Titan Legion that would hunt in packs, logical also because they did not possess any other Titan as the Warhound Titan. 

 

In terms of the use of Ursus Claws I would personally only see Space Wolves considering it. Other Legions in terms of tactics where simply said not that focused on melee combat or poweress. By large due to vessel size though I think that the option simply said was not available to all. One downside to harpoon-like tactics would possibly be that in order to have it be succesful at all one of the vessels who shot the harpoon would drastically outweigh it's target. This option would not be available to all. Even the Legio Audax has several of it's Warhounds destroyed before being effective with their target.

 

- Buther's Nails

The second point, which certainly can come over somewhat unbelievable when you don't look into it are the Butcher's Nails. What we have is confirmation that this small implant actually did have a massive outcomes in terms of damage output done by a single marine. Indeed it's the Butcher's Nails who allow World Eaters to dominate many other regular marines.

One of the best examples to display the immense power of the Butcher's Nails can be found in the gladatorial battle between Khârn and the by then Daemonically Possessed Argel Tal. Indeed the duel between them leads to a draw while both of them where very close in putting the maximum effort into their battle which would easily have killed lesser marines. Indeed we can conclude from this that the Butcher's Nails are a MASSIVE improvement for Space Marines in melee combat. The small implant is capable of putting a Marine at levels of that of a Marine + Daemon. Consider that fact for a moment .

 

Savage displays of battle are also only a matter of perspective. Savage battles do not need to be confused with uneffective battles. In that same example bot Orks and Tyranids have conquered entire planets with nothing but a shap edge on claw or weapon. The World Eaters have enough lore that prove how effective they where with this savage approach, it was just not what the Emperor had envisoned for them. It's even likely that he felt that the Butcher's Nails where a device leading to the eight-fold path (Khorne) which is also mentioned by Eldar adversaries.

 

To understand the effect of the nails a little this piece might help:

 

 

 

The cortical implants known as the Butcher's Nails would boost a warrior's adrenaline, resulting in greater strength and aggression in battle. Under the perverse influence of the implants, killing proved exhilarating in a way nothing else could be, and the Nails played their neurochemical game to make it so. When the Nails activated, they stunted the production of the neurotransmitter serotonin in the human brain to encourage instinctive aggression, just as they deadened all other forms of emotional response and neuroelectrical activity to all parts of the brain save for that which regulated the flow of adrenaline. 

 What it basically leads to is:

1. The warrior feels less/no pain (adrenaline)

2. The warrior has increased strength (apperantly higher as that of a regular marine)

3. The warrior shows increased aggression (devoid of mercy)

4. The warrior only shows aggression (becomes fearless, unstoppable, unpredictable)

 

So what we see is a souped up Space Marine, a concept not unfamiliar to 40K but most certainly rather unique in 30K. The downside for certain was that it simply erroded memory and caused a constant pain in the brain but for terms of effective combat there is very little such an implant would not offer. One could say that tactical superiority wasn't required to to physical superiority. See it as one 'juiced up' MMA fighter amongst regulars without any penalty to being juiced up. 

 

- World Eater's superior melee offense

What we thus can conclude is that they do not defeat their enemies with chain-axe alone and indeed are that much superior in melee combat as practically any of their adverseries. Wether or not this translates to the HH 30K I wouldn't know. What I do know is that it does translate in 40K and even in our latest Codex it's confirmed that the Techmarines of the World Eaters have unique technological knowledge and basically only share this in return of interesting goods, be it marines, cultists or daemonic knowledge.

 

There is a lot of depth to Khorne, World Eaters and other Khorne related warriors but many refuse to see the benifits of such extreme measures   more indepth info about the above can be found here online:

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Conqueror

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Hrafnkel

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Butcher%27s_Nails

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Legio_Audax

 

Cheers,

 

PS you can find more info about the ships all throughout the Legion pages. It's quite likely Leman would also have used Ursus claws if he had the technology or idea to use them  

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

- World Eater's superior melee offense

What we thus can conclude is that they do not defeat their enemies with chain-axe alone and indeed are that much superior in melee combat as practically any of their adverseries.

 

I'm going to address the second point first here. From what I remember of Betrayer we see plenty of WEs being killed by the Ultras when they get up close and personal. I'm not saying that the Nails don't give the WE an edge at the stabbing phase, only that it doesn't appear to be enough of an advantage for me to believe it 'realistically' (see Juggernut's post on the varying levels of believability) overcomes their deficiencies in what appears to be every other facet of warfare.

 

However, I'm happy to conclude that the XII Legion overall indeed do not defeat their enemies with chain-axe alone. But that viewpoint is better substantiated by things like the FW Black Books, where we do see a bit more thought, tactics and nuance among World Eaters. My point was that unfortunately isn't the impression I got from them in Betrayer.

 

 

One of the best examples to display the immense power of the Butcher's Nails can be found in the gladatorial battle between Khârn and the by then Daemonically Possessed Argel Tal. Indeed the duel between them leads to a draw while both of them where very close in putting the maximum effort into their battle which would easily have killed lesser marines. Indeed we can conclude from this that the Butcher's Nails are a MASSIVE improvement for Space Marines in melee combat. The small implant is capable of putting a Marine at levels of that of a Marine + Daemon. Consider that fact for a moment .

When does that happen? I thought Khârn and Tal fought together in the pits, and Khârn was never a massive fan of them, or performed at his best (hence Delvarus being the pit champion). The only Khârn pitfight I can recall in Betrayer is the when he rips Erebus a new one right at the end. Nevertheless I'm not sure that's the best example, as we're talking about top tier Legion badasses. Brutal fights that would've killed lesser Marines are pretty much their MO. It's the opposite of the way Orfeo cuts through the WEs 'line Marines' on his way to duel Khârn, and they go down pretty easy, despite the Nails. I'd expect the likes of Abbadon, Sevatar or Sigismund to do equally well vs Tal.

 

 

Savage displays of battle are also only a matter of perspective. Savage battles do not need to be confused with uneffective battles. In that same example bot Orks and Tyranids have conquered entire planets with nothing but a shap edge on claw or weapon. The World Eaters have enough lore that prove how effective they where with this savage approach, it was just not what the Emperor had envisoned for them. It's even likely that he felt that the Butcher's Nails where a device leading to the eight-fold path (Khorne) which is also mentioned by Eldar adversaries.

I get what you're aiming for here, though I'd say there's more to both those xenos' success. When Orks fight like the WEs do in Betrayer, that's when they tend to lose. Ork success usually comes about by either massive materiel superiority, or with the aid of those kunnin Orks that don't just grab a choppa and charge the closest enemy. To elaborate, I can certainly see WE tactics working on various xenos and human opponents. However, they're now fighting Space Marine Legions. Generally the Legions seem to have smashed Orks during the GC without too much trouble. While Marines trying the Orky tactics would undoubtedly be more dangerous and do more damage, the overall outcome should be the same imo, victory for the 'conventional' Legion.

 

The Nids are a completely different beast, guided by the Hive Mind, they have the cohesion and directed purpose that the WEs seem to lack. Indeed, it's the disruption of the synapse net, and the Nids becoming unthinking beasts, that often signals defeat for the swarm.

 

 

- Ursus Claws

The Ursus Claws where an invention of the World Eater techmarines and I believe others have not used it because they either saw no need for it or did not have the vessel to use it. To give said example, the Conquerer was the 3rd largest ship used in the Crusade. Only the one from the Ultramarines and Iron Warriors where larger. Both of these do not have the same melee combat preforance as World Eaters do. I tend to believe that size and weight would matter a lot here. This idea is proven to be grounded because Legio Audax' Titans possessed additional armour plating that was unique to Legio Audax. In addition to that they where also unique in being the only Titan Legion that would hunt in packs, logical also because they did not possess any other Titan as the Warhound Titan.

Here I may have committed a faux pas. I've tried to limit my criticisms in this thread to those purely found in Betrayer (because I'm not trying to hate on the WEs, just explain why I wasn't as enamoured with Betrayer as some were), but with this point I think I've moved the goalposts a little, as I was thinking that Ursus Claws have appeared on other ships, not just the Gloriana Class Conqueror. However, that was in other works (RobMac's 40k Space Sharks iirc), in Betrayer the only ship we see with the claws is indeed the Conqueror. Which does mollify my criticism somewhat regarding the novel as 'Legion's primary tech priest installs pet project on flagship' is an entirely reasonable hook whereas if they're present all over the fleet, I'd expect a much higher chance to the tech spreading outside the XII. Still think it's a shame though, when a cool idea like that ends up bound to only one Legion (ie. not mine ).

 

Whatever our disagreements on the quirks of WEs/Betrayer, have to echo Juggernut's sentiment on how chilled this thread has been.  

[Scribe]

I dont know that I can participate in discussion on the book, as my interpretation and admitted bias renders me unable to see how certain other views can be reached.

 

I will say, for the least contentious part as this was confirmed by ADB, Cyrene was a symbol to Argel Tal. He wanted to go back. He, despite all evidence to the contrary, did not have the strength that Erebus deemed necessary to continue the war and bring Khârn into it fully.

 

She was the straw to Erebus, because that was the representation of Argel Tal's weakness.

 

As to the rest, very little of it is actually filler, the Night of the Wolf in particular is probably the most critical piece in the story for understanding the World Eaters, but especially Angron.

 

Again though, I dont know that I can keep my chill on this topic. :]

[Commissar K.]

 

However, I'm happy to conclude that the XII Legion overall indeed do not defeat their enemies with chain-axe alone. But that viewpoint is better substantiated by things like the FW Black Books, where we do see a bit more thought, tactics and nuance among World Eaters. My point was that unfortunately isn't the impression I got from them in Betrayer.

 

-

When does that happen? I thought Khârn and Tal fought together in the pits, and Khârn was never a massive fan of them, or performed at his best (hence Delvarus being the pit champion). The only Khârn pitfight I can recall in Betrayer is the when he rips Erebus a new one right at the end. Nevertheless I'm not sure that's the best example, as we're talking about top tier Legion badasses. Brutal fights that would've killed lesser Marines are pretty much their MO. It's the opposite of the way Orfeo cuts through the WEs 'line Marines' on his way to duel Khârn, and they go down pretty easy, despite the Nails. I'd expect the likes of Abbadon, Sevatar or Sigismund to do equally well vs Tal.

 

-

 

I get what you're aiming for here, though I'd say there's more to both those xenos' success. When Orks fight like the WEs do in Betrayer, that's when they tend to lose. Ork success usually comes about by either massive materiel superiority, or with the aid of those kunnin Orks that don't just grab a choppa and charge the closest enemy. To elaborate, I can certainly see WE tactics working on various xenos and human opponents. However, they're now fighting Space Marine Legions. Generally the Legions seem to have smashed Orks during the GC without too much trouble. While Marines trying the Orky tactics would undoubtedly be more dangerous and do more damage, the overall outcome should be the same imo, victory for the 'conventional' Legion.

 

The Nids are a completely different beast, guided by the Hive Mind, they have the cohesion and directed purpose that the WEs seem to lack. Indeed, it's the disruption of the synapse net, and the Nids becoming unthinking beasts, that often signals defeat for the swarm.

 

-

 

Here I may have committed a faux pas. I've tried to limit my criticisms in this thread to those purely found in Betrayer (because I'm not trying to hate on the WEs, just explain why I wasn't as enamoured with Betrayer as some were), but with this point I think I've moved the goalposts a little, as I was thinking that Ursus Claws have appeared on other ships, not just the Gloriana Class Conqueror. However, that was in other works (RobMac's 40k Space Sharks iirc), in Betrayer the only ship we see with the claws is indeed the Conqueror. Which does mollify my criticism somewhat regarding the novel as 'Legion's primary tech priest installs pet project on flagship' is an entirely reasonable hook whereas if they're present all over the fleet, I'd expect a much higher chance to the tech spreading outside the XII. Still think it's a shame though, when a cool idea like that ends up bound to only one Legion (ie. not mine ).

 

Whatever our disagreements on the quirks of WEs/Betrayer, have to echo Juggernut's sentiment on how chilled this thread has been.

 

 

I think that one of the important things to realize with the assault on the Ultra Marines is that a lot of it is from down on the ground levels of perspective. It's even easy to forget that the World Eaters are not just fighting alone against Ultra Marines here. For certain, while it is not covered, the Word Bearers played their part too. So while the focus is largely put on Khârn there is more going on offcourse. 

 

The duel between Khârn and Tal, essentially being a duel between Butcher's Nails and being Daemonically Possessed occurs in the audio book Butcher's Nails. As mentioned within this it's shown that despite Tal's obvious physical alteration the Butcher's Nails allow Khârn to keep up with him at the same strenght level.

If anything I'd say the way the rules and blood for the bloodgod now work on 8th's Khorne Berzerker's is an arguable good example of what the Butcher's Nails do. So while the Codex has given Butcher's Nails as the Legion Trait to World Eaters I'm quite certain their S5 and double attack modus comes from the Butcher's Nails and not just by screaming Blood for the Bloodgod. 

What we know is that Angron himself was a feared Primarch also. In addition we have Eldrari confirmation that the Butcher's Nails are defices who lead to the eight fold path, the path of Khorne, so in their own way act as a Khornate possession altogether.

Link to Butcher's Nails: https://www.blacklibrary.com/all-products/butchers-nails-mp3.html

 

What I think you underestimate is the effect of this mentioned implants. Apperantly it is a huge game changer. I have no idea what it does in the 30K HH game but the narrative is very clear about it. It makes them a very effective force altogether. We don't have any in depth narrative on how exactly the Butcher's Nails improve the Space Marines. What we do have is clear narrative in that it makes them much stronger. 

 

In general I think HH is designed to be fan service books at times. Meaning that the power level of certain Legions seems unstoppable at certain points. there is no real objective view. What is important though is that despite Betrayer focussing on World Eaters they got assistance from the whole Legio Audax and Word Bearers. While many World Eaters didn't understand the way Word Bearers work it's very logical to at this point assume they did provide the World Eaters with needed ranged assistance, despite it not being written in detail.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Trevak Dal]

I love that part in it where the World Eaters are fighting the Ultramarines, who have a rank with shields stopping them killing them in droves, and Khârn says "Our Turn,".

 

Also that part where Angron does that Crowning Moment of Awesome and all the World Eaters start chanting his name.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

Hands down one of my favorite (if not my actual favorite) 30k/40k novel. I definitely agree with what's been said regarding it being a bit bizarre that these bonzai charges somehow winning whole wars against other Astartes legions, but I think that issue really stems from this being a look at the tactical level (which is presumably going to look pretty much the way ADB portrays it, with hordes of gibbering madmen in power armor crashing into the nearest enemy) rather than the operational level, which is where I think all the real magic is happening- I'm picturing something like Deep Battle, but with approximately 888% more chainaxes. 

[Commissar K.]

To me the fog of war and general rubbled cities is enough of an excuse to make it all work. Plus, this is easily forgotten, World Eaters do recieve Word Bearer support in the book. It's just not mentioned that often or focused upon. 

So if anything I only think it's logical that the WE tactis work so well here. In addition due to the ascension of Angron it's also very clear that Khorne is watching the battle and this shoulder deep level of damnation would further empower any followers of the Blood God sooner or later.

Cheers,

[Khornestar]

I think the protagonist winning is nearly always a thing from a narrative sense in 40k/30k, though I’ve only read a handful of books, so perhaps I’m way off.

 

Ultramarines stomping out both legions at once is how it would play out in 40k, so I’m grateful for whatever victories the traitors pull off, even if they’re “unrealistic.” The presence of Guilliman doesn’t magically carry the day and reverse seemingly insurmountable odds due to his tactical acumen. Both sides have meaningful victories and defeats.

[intel31337]

One of my favorites. Love the portrayal of grit and dust in a warzone. Also gives a different perspective of the Emperor's crusade from the eyes of those subdued by the Imperium. Mostly I like the portrayal of Angron, and that beneath the madness, there is actually some level of intellect and perspective. He understood that the Primarchs and the Astartes were ultimately just tools to the Emperor, rather than beloved sons, and does not possess the hubris and ego of his brothers. Makes you wonder what would have happened if he was spared the implants.
 

I don't find issue with the idea of the blood-hungry savages defeating the disciplined shield wall all that unbelievable. The two forces are roughly equivalent in terms of equipment and technology, and unlike the US vs Japanese banzai charges, they possess impressive armor that can withstand a volley of fire (its the whole reason Melee even works in 40k). I think it was more to punctuate the impact of the implants in the WE and why they were so feared (I mean, it was the very reason Russ was sent to stop them and ultimately failed to do so). Remember that it was the savage barbarians that defeated the disciplined legions of the Roman empire.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 Remember that it was the savage barbarians that defeated the disciplined legions of the Roman empire.

 

While I've said my piece on the issues I had with the book, this idea isn't really true of history. In the early periods of the Roman Empire, they didn't really lose all that often when fighting 'barbarians', and when they did, the barbarians tended to use unconventional, asymmetric tactics rather than a stand up fight. This changed as time went on, and the barbarians became increasingly 'civilised' with greater military proficiency thanks to prolonged contact with Rome, especially as the same barbarians pillaging Roman territory often had served as Auxilia in the Roman Army (increasingly so as the Empire withered, most of the Roman Army were technically 'barbarians'). The Barbarians won by fighting smarter (plus internal issues which contributed to Roman decline a degradation of the Legions, and a loss of the old Roman will to fight), not by fighting angrier.

 

Apologies for the historical tangent .

[Commissar K.]

Well one thing I think I want to highlight is that the Butchers Nails dont just make you angrier or only savage :).

 

It's again easy to miss how much it puts space marines on another level. Even the side effects are a minimal issue if you think about the 10.000 years they have used them and how Khârn is not completely without reason.

 

Keep in mind, the models are narrative made rules. The strength gained is not difficult to see. Just compair datasheets.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

There was a scene in the new Fabius Bile book where his ex-World Eater apothecary single-handedly carves through half a dozen (off the top of my head, might have actually been more) Emperor's Children after being surrounded, and they're noted as being experienced legion veterans and not random mooks- it's heavily implied that he's able to pull it off because he gives into the nails.

Edited January 2, 2018 by OPTIMVSCHRISTVS

[intel31337]

 

 The Barbarians won by fighting smarter (plus internal issues which contributed to Roman decline a degradation of the Legions, and a loss of the old Roman will to fight), not by fighting angrier.

Apologies for the historical tangent .

 

 

No worries.

However, I would still argue that they were relatively undisciplined when compared to the Romans. And I would put WE method of warfare under that unconventional tactics category ;)

 

I would also say that the book does punctuate of the cost of the WE method of warfare, not simply glorifying their blind bloodlust. A theme that resonates throughout the book. The most interesting moments in the book are the reflective ones. Like the moments leading up to that charge, Khârn does realize the cost in lives and try to reign in his brothers, before getting swept up by the rage induced by the nails, and then the moments afterwards taking in the losses. Like their Primarch, they are a dying race at this point, but one that is united by brotherhood.