Mort's BA-Dex Observations.

[Morticon]

side note- was playing Blood Boil wrong - not sure how/why - but i read the range wrong.  Wont be playing that power again.  

[Morticon]

Unit observations:

 

Big DC.

 

VERY, very enjoyable.  I will try make sure I play with no less than 10 from now on.  

 

The ability to still have a hardy unit to fight with after taking casualties was really good.  I HATE that DC are only 6+++ and i really wish GW would do something about it- but such is their lot, I feel. 

 

I think for tri-lock tactics, the chunkier squads are even better.  

 

Lucius Pod Libby Dread. 

 

My three prong attack was as follows: 

 

Mephy casting wings (to guarantee a charge)

DC using DoA to "guarantee" a charge

Dread using quickening to do the same. 

 

The quickening is incredible for that +3".  It doesn't sound like much, but man, the jump from 9" to 6" is HUGE.  If you do not have a well bubbled opponent, they are losing the targeted unit. 

 

This was the first time in any game that i've had success with the libby dread, since the model came out. 

The ability to place the pod, use quickening, but then use the DC charge, and other units (like the dropped tac squad) to "shield" the dread from attacks meant the survivability increased tenfold.  I HATE that pods are still so pricey and this combo costs 252 minimum - but its really, really good. 

 

I will strongly consider this unit combo to have in a tournament build (meta-depending).  

 

Reivers 

 

No real use from them, sadly.  That being said, when i calculated the attacks I had a golly gee moment.  6 guys, putting out 19 BA attacks in CC? Yumm.  With chutes, they can deploy and support- and are arguably better than ASM - aside from the fact that they dont benefit from the BA jumpy strats.  

These guys have really good potential - not as the shock/disruption troops that I believe theyve been billed as, but just as good value for points assault units.  They're only let down by the lack of a PW/Special Weapon leader.  

 

[Morticon]

Looking at testing this next:

 

Captain - Hammer, Shield, JP - Angels Wing (WL - Gift of foresight, Visions) (also considering a Relic blade?)

Captain - Hammer, Shield, JP - Veritas

Mephiston

 

5x Intercessors

5x Intercessors

5x Scouts - Pwr Swd

5x Scouts - Pwr Swd

5x Scouts

5x Scouts

 

10 DC- Axe, Sword, Hammer

8 VanVet - 5x Shields, Axe, Sword, Hammer

7 Stern Guard - Swd

 

Tarantula

3 Inceptors

3 Inceptors  (curious to play with points to see how the plasma is with these guys)

 

Rapier - quadmortar

Rapier - quadmortar

Rapier - quad HB

 

Drop Pod 


Im going to attempt to play a little reactively with the Inceptors- use them to counter strike things. 

Meph, 1 Captain (maybe 2), the Stern and the DC will be wave one.  

[Morticon]

For those curious why the two Captains over one + Lemmy, I'm struggling to find another way to fit in the Veritas.  

The only other way I can CP mine is to get a patrol detachment of guard and use the Aquila and Grand Strat combo. 

[Are Verlo]

I like the new list. It is less reliant of psychic powers. And those can be stopped by a low roll or a high deny roll.

[Jolemai]

Can I recommend you break out the Scorpius in the near future?

[Panzer]

Oooh please try the Captain with Shield and Relic blade! It's a build I always liked visually but on paper it doesn't convince me like the Thunderhammer unfortunately.

[Morticon]

Can I recommend you break out the Scorpius in the near future?

 

I had built it into the first version of this list, actually! :P Had to take out.  But it will defs be there somewhere.

Oooh please try the Captain with Shield and Relic blade! It's a build I always liked visually but on paper it doesn't convince me like the Thunderhammer unfortunately.

 

I'll give it a bash

[Morticon]

Have come up with another combo that I'm going to work into my list. 

Libby + Angels Wing and with Quickening as a power!  

That way he will ensure that the DC or even Mephy are not too damaged by OW.   The odds of a 6" rerollable charge are also much higher! Not nearly as hardy as the Dread- but 120 points cheaper than that combo. 

 

Gonna work that in. 

 

[Charlo]

Have come up with another combo that I'm going to work into my list. 

 

Libby + Angels Wing and with Quickening as a power!  

 

That way he will ensure that the DC or even Mephy are not too damaged by OW.   The odds of a 6" rerollable charge are also much higher! Not nearly as hardy as the Dread- but 120 points cheaper than that combo. 

 

Gonna work that in. 

 

Yeah we've discussed this one a few times. It's a sleeper I think, very reliable and buckets of synergy with something like a Lemmy + DC Drop.

 

For lulz you could even give him wings instead and hop over some wrap in the psychic phase, but you then obviously forego using that on Mephy.

 

What wargear you thinking on him?

[Morticon]

 

Have come up with another combo that I'm going to work into my list. 

 

Libby + Angels Wing and with Quickening as a power!  

 

That way he will ensure that the DC or even Mephy are not too damaged by OW.   The odds of a 6" rerollable charge are also much higher! Not nearly as hardy as the Dread- but 120 points cheaper than that combo. 

 

Gonna work that in. 

 

Yeah we've discussed this one a few times. It's a sleeper I think, very reliable and buckets of synergy with something like a Lemmy + DC Drop.

 

For lulz you could even give him wings instead and hop over some wrap in the psychic phase, but you then obviously forego using that on Mephy.

 

What wargear you thinking on him?

 

><; my bad for missing that!!! 

 

Thinking a sword only.  Yeah, wings will defs be for mephy! The combo will see both in. 

 

Will probs use Wings on Meph, and then maybe free up Rage and Shield 

 

 

Mephy =  Wings, Rage, + ? maybe quickening for redundancy

Libby = Quickening, Shield 

[Charlo]

Quickening is so good, having it on both can only pay off IMO.

[Are Verlo]

But relying on two psychic powers can work well vs some armies and fail horribly vs others.

 

Guess it depends on how quickly and reliable you can kill the opponents «denyers»

[Morticon]

But relying on two psychic powers can work well vs some armies and fail horribly vs others.

 

Guess it depends on how quickly and reliable you can kill the opponents «denyers»

Nice thing with Quickening, is that its quite high (7) to start with, so, you're looking at an above average roll to block. At least means enemy has to try!! 

[Panzer]

I was thinking about using Wings of Sanguinius and Quickening on my Librarian Dreadnought but I kinda feel uneasy about not giving him a 5++. 

[Are Verlo]

 

But relying on two psychic powers can work well vs some armies and fail horribly vs others.

 

Guess it depends on how quickly and reliable you can kill the opponents «denyers»

Nice thing with Quickening, is that its quite high (7) to start with, so, you're looking at an above average roll to block. At least means enemy has to try!! 

 

There are some armies out there with bonuses to deny rolls.

 

I love both wings and quickening, but my test games have taught me that vs a model with +2 to deny or even +1, it can be quite hard to pull off a psychic two powers combo.

As you said a libby dread podding in can often make it into close combat as long as one of the two powers go through. If we need wings, then quickening, it is a long shot.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I face such heavy psyker armies I have gravitated to the Sanguinor so he garuntees the extra attack. Grey Knights with +1 and Bugs with their -1 really keep my psychic phase in check when playing BA.

 

Not sure how the China/South Africa meta is by comparison. Just food for thought Mort.

 

But I do advocate the Sanguinor as a staple for my armies, he is a solid HQ, stabby enough and quite durable to be a great counter part to Meph, Cappi-Smash or DC.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Dont-Be-Haten

[Morticon]

Ive been trying to work him in, but my issue with him is not that his bonus isnt good, its that the stuff that CAN get into combat does, and his is a long shot. 

One drop unit (usually chunky DC) will get DoA.  Mephy will try get wings, which guarantees a charge if you're playing Mephy-pod.  (assuming not gimped by blocking)
After that....its maybe an Angelic Wing character. 

So, inevitably, he's outside for the 1st drop.  He then needs to survive and get in, in subsequent turns. 

I'll defs give him a look, though.  

As for China- just been doing vassal.  SA meta is Eldar, Nid, DG, GK heavy - so all anti-psyker.  

 

[Brother Aether]

Hey Mort,

 

Really enjoying this thread. Do you think that it would be worth having a Force Axe for the additional cost on your Librarian, so that you can get a few more wounds thrown on the DG/GK as well? (I'm thinking about doing a librarian like that myself).

[brother_b]

I took wings, quickening, and shield of sanguinius on Mephiston. Quickening is my first cast, failing that I need to decide if I can either reposition with wings to still make a good charge, or bottle him up for some defensive abilities with shield. He's a beast and I want to try and shield him from the inevitable shooting.

[Morticon]

Hey Mort,

 

Really enjoying this thread. Do you think that it would be worth having a Force Axe for the additional cost on your Librarian, so that you can get a few more wounds thrown on the DG/GK as well? (I'm thinking about doing a librarian like that myself).

Heya buddy - I'm not sure.  

 

I stand to be corrected here, but I think the math hammer shows the Sword Come out tops in most situations? 

 

If anyone could run the numbers of a libby (or anyone else) with 3 attacks rocking a Sword, Axe and Staff(/maul) with the BA ability charging and see what they look like vs. T3-8 that would be so helpful! 

 

Thanks. 

 

Just a cursory overview- T7/8 will have the same wound rate for the Maul and Axe (meaning axe wins out there). While the sword and axe will have the same to wound rate at T6/7 which means the sword wins out there.  The real math will come at the S3-S5 level, I think 

[Kallas]

If anyone could run the numbers of a libby (or anyone else) with 3 attacks rocking a Sword, Axe and Staff(/maul) with the BA ability charging and see what they look like vs. T3-8 that would be so helpful! 

Just a cursory overview- T7/8 will have the same wound rate for the Maul and Axe (meaning axe wins out there). While the sword and axe will have the same to wound rate at T6/7 which means the sword wins out there.  The real math will come at the S3-S5 level, I think

 

Sword vs Axe, I'll assume 1 attack (then you can just multiply based on how many extra attacks you get from Quickening/Red Rampage!), Red Thirst is active, and I'll also ignore damage, as that's essentially the save after failed saves for each (essential 2 for the average):

 

T3/Sv4+ (eg, Scions)

1*0.66 = 0.66 hits

0.66*0.833 = 0.55 wounds

 

Sword, 0.55*1 = 0.55 failed saves

Axe, 0.55*0.833 = 0.458 failed saves

Identical vs Sv5+/GEQs

 

T4/Sv3+ (MEQ)

Sword:

0.66*0.66 = 0.44 wounds

0.44*0.833 = 0.367 failed saves vs 3+

0.44*0.66 = 0.29 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.833 = 0.55 wounds

0.55*0.66 = 0.363 failed saves vs 3+

0.55*0.5 = 0.275 failed saves vs 2+

 

T5-7

Sword:

0.66*0.5 = 0.33 wounds

0.5*0.833 = 0.417 failed saves vs 3+

0.5*0.66 = 0.33 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.66 = 0.44 wounds

0.44*0.66 = 0.29 failed saves vs 3+

0.44*0.5 = 0.218 failed saves vs 2+

 

T8

Sword:

0.66*0.33 = 0.218 wounds

0.218*0.833 = 0.182 failed saves vs 3+

0.218*0.66 = 0.144 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.5 = 0.33 wounds

0.33*0.66 = 0.218 failed saves vs 3+

0.33*0.5 = 0.165 failed saves vs 2+

 

 

Analysis

Sword is better against everything up to T7, then the Axe is better. Against things with low save (like 4/5+) but high Toughness (5+) the Axe is a little better (Hive Guard; T5/4+ = Sword 0.33 vs Axe 0.363). Overall, the Sword is a better all-rounder, with the Axe being best against high-ish Toughness models with good saves (eg, Storm Shields: T4/3++ = Sword, 0.144 vs Axe, 0.181).

Edited January 18, 2018 by Kallas

[Ekfud]

Oooh please try the Captain with Shield and Relic blade! It's a build I always liked visually but on paper it doesn't convince me like the Thunderhammer unfortunately.

That does sound like a good combo - although wasn’t there a separate thread about the codex options being either relic OR shield on captain? Recall it may have been allowable on terminator but not standard?

[Morticon]

 

Oooh please try the Captain with Shield and Relic blade! It's a build I always liked visually but on paper it doesn't convince me like the Thunderhammer unfortunately.

That does sound like a good combo - although wasn’t there a separate thread about the codex options being either relic OR shield on captain? Recall it may have been allowable on terminator but not standard?

 

 

 

Good catch.

 

Dex says this:

 

"This model may replace its chainsword with a storm shield, relic blade or an item from the Melee Weapons list."

 

So, its a no-no, oddly :/ 

[The Unseen]

But remember, if your going character hunting, most will have an invuln save of a variable nature, and that's when the axe can pull ahead.

Obviously if the model ignores any ap after -1, like a marine captain with a 3+/4++, then the improved str of the axe has time to shine.

 

But vs targets with no invuln, for BA the sword is generally superior.