What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Hellrender]

To be fair, isnt that already a bit hintet at in Emperor's Gift, at the end when a certain ancient dreadnought comes out to have a word with the inquisitor? I always felt that Bjorn was not at all happy with the actions of the Great Wolf, but supported him out bonds of brotherhood regardless.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Great Wolf meaning Russ or Logan in this case?

[Kelborn]

Think that he's refering to Logan in this case.

 

 

Tbh, I haven't read all 8 pages so bare with me if that was already mentioned.

 

I found it very interesting that (mentioned in Russ' Primarch novel), the Emperor planned the Wolves to become mankind's protectors after the Great Crusade was over.

 

What better way to protect your people than to enlist one / if not the most lethal Legion of them all, the so-called Executioners?

 

Think that this was a veeeeery well done by Chris. In writing this, he gave us a reason behind the decisive changes in between the 30K and 40K Wolves.

 

30K: Executioners, etc. (we all know that); don't care for anyone besides themselves, give a **** about what others think

40K: Protectors, care for mankind, the typicall hero type with which we're all familiar with since Bill King's ragnar novels, still don't give a **** about what others think

Edited February 15, 2018 by Kelborn

[Withershadow]

I haven't read that particular novel, but where does that idea come from? Because it is decidedly in disagreement with the most recent background in First High Lord and Old Earth that basically outlines that Primarchs/Astartes were disposable.

[Marshal Loss]

What better way to protect your people than to enlist one / if not the most lethal Legion of them all, the so-called Executioners?

 

The Wolves are not more or less lethal than any other Legion. They carried a formidable reputation (which some Legions matched), but it was their 'unpredictability' combined with their unquestionable loyalty to the Throne that were their defining traits, not their strength.

Edited February 15, 2018 by Marshal Loss

[TheRealMcCagh]

It's kind of a crude comparison, but I've always thought the SW were dangerous in a way a meth head is dangerous. Wildly unpredictable and tenacious as all get out. But not necessarily stronger or faster than you. They'll just come at you sideways and not give a damn

[Kelborn]

I was refering to their reputation. Should've made that clear.

 

@Withershadow:
After rereading that part, I can tell you this:

 

Russ arrived on Terra after the siege. He strode through the ruins. Then he fell asleep, dreaming himself on Fenris again, following the strange wanderer, who is obviously the Emperor. I'm trying to quote here but as I got the German version, I'll try my best to hit the right tone.

 

"Now the time hast come, Leman of tribe of Russ." said the wanderer [...]

"The time for what?" he asked and stood still.

[,,,]

"To do what you were made to do. Or to drown in your sorrow. It is your decision."

Russ did not understand. "I was made to protect you." he said

"No. You were always wrong about that. You were made to protect my creation."

 

So maybe it is just me but that would explain some changes in their behaviour, etc.

 

Haven't read Old Earth or The First High Lord, though. But I can't imagine that releases so "close" to each other would reckon the other that quickly.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Didn't the SW have a large amount of "SM police" (forget the name, Consuls or something). What if the VIth was meant to enforce other legions and execute only when needed. Once the Great Crusade was done, their trefoil requirements would be used. Their part of the trefoil was to ensure the remaining Legions (probably Salamanders and Alpha Legion) and guard the gateway ie swat/military. Meanwhile the Alpha Legion were spies ie FBI and Salamanders would be citizen guard/police as they were more friendly ie friendly neighborhood cop.

[Kelborn]

Yes they had those but that was due to their lack of discipline.

 

It's mostly like

 

Space Wolves pre Russ = World Eaters with Angron

Space Wolves with Russ = World Eaters pre Angron

[Huggtand]

A few authors have hinted (and at the same time hinted that it may not be true  ) that not all Legions was needed after the Great Crusade. The wolves are one of the Legions that many speculate was meant for guarding the reminding Legions when peace ensued.

 

In "First High Lord" Malcador says this (the planned culling, among other things) to a dying friend and then immediately laments to big E that he has to tell lies so it's very ambivalent if it´s true or not.

 

If the Emperor planned for the wolves to stick around the passage in "Leman Russ" make sense even if the new narrative is true.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Huggtand

[Kelborn]

Having the Wolves as the protectors of the Imperium does fit the treefoil lore. Pure speculation from my side:

 

Alpha Legion for secretive / shadow wars.

Wolves for the "regular" foes.

Salamanders as guardians of the webway.

 

Would they still have the same purpose if Big E was succesfull with his webway project? Maybe

 

AL as scouts

SW as army

Sallies as guardians of the civilians

 

?

Edited February 16, 2018 by Kelborn

[Hellrender]

Space wolves as standard army when you could have taken ultramarines, dark angels or imperial fists? Any of those much more suited to the job as regular army.

 

Space wolves are special, if only because of the canis helix. They were not intended to be a regular army in any way.

 

I agree with alpha legion for spec ops/spy.

Salamanders protectors of civilians or somekind of police force.

 

Space wolves? Idk. Assuming that the great crusade was successful, that would mean that the imperial truth was also implemented in full. Maybe they are hunters of maleficarum? A sanction force on those that betray the imperium or betray the imperial trurth. Like a sanction force tonprevent a second old night.

[Kasper_Hawser]

If we're going to discuss what would the Space Wolves role be assuming the Emperor was actually successful, perhaps as the legion most privy to the threat of the warp, the Space Wolves would probably, oh the irony, be the Inquisition that roots out any remnant of chaos in the aftermath of the Imperial Truth. 

 

Oh the irony. But since I'm still somewhat noblebright, I still hold to the guard dog role for the Imperium as opposed to the adminstration (Ultramarines), conquering (Dark Angels) etc.

 

Then again, we're assuming the Emperor actually gives a damn about humanity, let alone the Space Marine legions. I hear that Malcador remarked that even certain Space Marine legions would eventually be culled assuming the Emperor's plan went through. Horrifying but after hearing about the Thunderwarriors and of course the missing 2nd and 11th legions, I'm no longer surprised.

 

Sorry, these days I seem to hate the Emperor as an inhuman ruler who while may have the best macro view of the universe, is like God without Jesus Christ, all knowing, omnipotent yet completely no connection with his creation. Sometimes I think the Heresy deserved to happen, but without the chaos manipulations and as a big scale rebellion of loyalty to the Emperor vs loyalty to humanity vs loyalty to comrades.

[Leif Bearclaw]

If we're going to discuss what would the Space Wolves role be assuming the Emperor was actually successful, perhaps as the legion most privy to the threat of the warp, the Space Wolves would probably, oh the irony, be the Inquisition that roots out any remnant of chaos in the aftermath of the Imperial Truth. 

 

Oh the irony. But since I'm still somewhat noblebright, I still hold to the guard dog role for the Imperium as opposed to the adminstration (Ultramarines), conquering (Dark Angels) etc.

 

No, I think that was more likely the Alpha Legion.

 

Wolves fit fine in either interpretation of the future of the Astartes imo. If the Legions aren't purged, the Wolves fit in fine as border guards/protectors/army, alongside the other Legions. If most Legions are purged, then the Wolves fit in as a 'last resort' type force. Culturally, they seem perfectly willing, if wars are lacking, to kick back on Fenris and do their own thing, waiting for the call that world X has stepped out of line and needs a good sanctioning.

 

 

Then again, we're assuming the Emperor actually gives a damn about humanity, let alone the Space Marine legions. I hear that Malcador remarked that even certain Space Marine legions would eventually be culled assuming the Emperor's plan went through. Horrifying but after hearing about the Thunderwarriors and of course the missing 2nd and 11th legions, I'm no longer surprised.

 

Sorry, these days I seem to hate the Emperor as an inhuman ruler who while may have the best macro view of the universe, is like God without Jesus Christ, all knowing, omnipotent yet completely no connection with his creation. Sometimes I think the Heresy deserved to happen, but without the chaos manipulations and as a big scale rebellion of loyalty to the Emperor vs loyalty to humanity vs loyalty to comrades.

Then BL have done their work well . I really dislike the way they've treated the Emperor as the Heresy series has progressed. It's a weird mix of stupid and unnecessary grimderp imo. They really seem to have lost sight of the idea that the Heresy was a tragedy, the loss of a Golden Age. These days the 30k Imperium is so close to the 40k Imperium it's hard to tell the difference. It seems the only effect the Heresy had was some military reorganisation and the Ecclesiarchy replacing the Imperial Truth. The amount of 'Horus was right' that seems to be creeping in just misses what was meant to be the point.

[Amun Ra]

Then again, we're assuming the Emperor actually gives a damn about humanity, let alone the Space Marine legions. I hear that Malcador remarked that even certain Space Marine legions would eventuall

Sorry, these days I seem to hate the Emperor as an inhuman ruler who while may have the best macro view of the universe, is like God without Jesus Christ, all knowing, omnipotent yet completely no connection with his creation. Sometimes I think the Heresy deserved to happen, but without the chaos manipulations and as a big scale rebellion of loyalty to the Emperor vs loyalty to humanity vs loyalty to comrades.

If memory serves, when the Horus Heresy was very first mentioned, it was just a brief snippet about a charismatic general who turned half of the imperium to his side. All the chaos came as they fleshed it out. Always liked that idea so much more.

 

I think if the crusade had succeeded there would of been several legions that would of needed sanctioning, they were just too nuts to be left running around a civilised galaxy. World Eaters, Night Lords, Death Guard and Iron Hands maybe as well?

[Withershadow]

 

Then BL have done their work well . I really dislike the way they've treated the Emperor as the Heresy series has progressed. It's a weird mix of stupid and unnecessary grimderp imo. They really seem to have lost sight of the idea that the Heresy was a tragedy, the loss of a Golden Age. These days the 30k Imperium is so close to the 40k Imperium it's hard to tell the difference. It seems the only effect the Heresy had was some military reorganisation and the Ecclesiarchy replacing the Imperial Truth. The amount of 'Horus was right' that seems to be creeping in just misses what was meant to be the point.

 

#HorusWasRight

#LogarWasRightToo

#MagnusDidNothingWrong

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

Then BL have done their work well . I really dislike the way they've treated the Emperor as the Heresy series has progressed. It's a weird mix of stupid and unnecessary grimderp imo. They really seem to have lost sight of the idea that the Heresy was a tragedy, the loss of a Golden Age. These days the 30k Imperium is so close to the 40k Imperium it's hard to tell the difference. It seems the only effect the Heresy had was some military reorganisation and the Ecclesiarchy replacing the Imperial Truth. The amount of 'Horus was right' that seems to be creeping in just misses what was meant to be the point.

 

 

As with most things though the victors are the ones that write history and the other side of the story is normally discounted or even discredited in order for the victors to be shown as the "right."

 

I think the 30k/HH system allows us to "live through" the civil war event of the Imperium. This is going to give different perspectives and more detail and identity to those that are involved. I'm sure that is a big issue we're facing with the main topic of what identity the Space Wolves had as a legion and what Russ' character/purpose really is. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Bloody Legionnaire

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

 

Then again, we're assuming the Emperor actually gives a damn about humanity, let alone the Space Marine legions. I hear that Malcador remarked that even certain Space Marine legions would eventually be culled assuming the Emperor's plan went through. Horrifying but after hearing about the Thunderwarriors and of course the missing 2nd and 11th legions, I'm no longer surprised.

 

Sorry, these days I seem to hate the Emperor as an inhuman ruler who while may have the best macro view of the universe, is like God without Jesus Christ, all knowing, omnipotent yet completely no connection with his creation. Sometimes I think the Heresy deserved to happen, but without the chaos manipulations and as a big scale rebellion of loyalty to the Emperor vs loyalty to humanity vs loyalty to comrades.

Then BL have done their work well . I really dislike the way they've treated the Emperor as the Heresy series has progressed. It's a weird mix of stupid and unnecessary grimderp imo. They really seem to have lost sight of the idea that the Heresy was a tragedy, the loss of a Golden Age. These days the 30k Imperium is so close to the 40k Imperium it's hard to tell the difference. It seems the only effect the Heresy had was some military reorganisation and the Ecclesiarchy replacing the Imperial Truth. The amount of 'Horus was right' that seems to be creeping in just misses what was meant to be the point.

 

 

Like I said, I think the dehumanization of the Emperor seemed to justify that "Horus was right", "Lorgar was right", "Magnus was right", and made the whole heresy grimdark overload utterly ridiculous, rather than the super tragic galactic incident that made us all connect to the characters of that era.

 

You are right Leif, BL did their work too well. They effectively made me no longer give a damn about the heresy, or even 40K storywise because in the end, everyone deserves their fate as chaos food. Even the characters and primarchs we all love and connect to in some way which BL took the liberty of introducing to us and then shatting on us. Example below based on books i read. 

 

Garviel Loken

Saul Tarvitz

Argel Tal

Remus Ventanus

Zahariel (before Angels of Caliban mucked him up)

Revuel Arvida

Shiban Khan

Torghun Khan

Yesugei

Cyrene

Thiel

 

...... OK, need to pull myself out of the grimdark pit BL dug for us. Russ is still around. There is hope yet. :) And don't give me that :cusse about hope being the first step to disappointment.

 

Because even the Emperor can be wrong about humanity failing without him. Screw whatever ADB says in Master of Mankind, if he failed to forsee or prepare for the Heresy, who is to say somebody can't give him and the chaos gods the big middle finger and save the galaxy in a way nobody expects? Not saying that someone is Russ, but I pray that whatever redemption the galaxy can get, Russ will get the ball rolling. No cat puns please.

[SickSix]

 

 

Really, Russ is one thing: Loyal.

 

Basically it is just that.

 

When you have a dog that constantly protects you even when you don't need protecting, you keep him. He may snap at his own siblings and have to be put away when company comes. But he is the one you trust to be in the house at night to protect you.

 

And he is the one you take with you if you have to do some dirty work. He is the one thou have at your side on a dangerous hunt and only release when the regural hunting dogs aren't getting the job done.

 

He just became who he was and that was the one Primarch the Emperor knew would never question him or hesitate. Just like an overeager dog.

 

And I would argue any 'purpose' the Primarchs had was lost when the Emperor was enthroned. They just did what they individually felt they had to do after that.

 

Just like your dogs would do if you suddenly didn't come home one day, and never returned.

[carlisimo]

My personal speculation is that the triumvirate were the only three legions originally intended to have a role after the Great Crusade. Doesn't mean the Emperor wouldn't keep some of the others, like Ultramarines administrators or White Scars as scouts to keep exploring the Webway, but those decisions would've been made later. And maybe he wouldn't want to keep them, who knows.

 

With primarchs it's a little different - it looks like Magnus had an important role as Webway traffic director. His legion would be gone though, lost to the flesh change. I suspect the Emperor was fine with that, as long as they lasted long enough for the Great Crusade. Dorn seems handy to have around, too.

 

But anyway, back to the triumvirate. You've got the Salamanders as the Imperium's military arm (i.e. the Imperial Army was a temporary measure too) - they care about humanity but look different enough to remind humans that they aren't the same as them. The Alpha Legion are a police force, and the Space Wolves watch over both and also get used against rebellious humans. That means that humans don't develop a fear of the Salamanders, who are the only Astartes that the public sees on a regular basis.

[Scribe]

You guys thinking the Emperor is only now being painted in a bad light have some pretty big blinders on for the pre-HH (as official via FW/BL) fluff. Take any number of examples from the IA articles (and yes I know those are 'no longer canon' but they did drive the formation of the real story) and you can see immediately that the Emperor was never flawless, and the Crusade has always been nothing more than the forced unification of humanity, and the genocidal destruction of everyone else.

 

The Emperor was always a dick, and noblebright intentions have no place in the setting. :]

 

EDIT: And really, so are the Wolves, and everyone during the Great Crusade.

 

I remember that Short Story, were they are helping hold off the Dark Eldar. Wolves + Humans win, and the Wolves say 'OK now shake my hand and join the Imperium'.

 

'But we are free now, why would I want to do that?'

'No really, shake my hand, or we are going to have to force you.'

"Nah, we are free, we just beat the aliens, we will beat you!'

 

And we know how that goes.

 

Angron was right. The Primarchs were expected to enslave humanity to the Imperiums will. No disagreement, no negotiation, you are in, or you are dead, oh and we will take your able bodied to fight for us btw, thanks.

 

Thats the Imperium, and it always has been.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Scribe

[bluntblade]

I've read MoM in full about five times now, and I really don't think it translates to the heretics being right. The Emperor was dehumanised by His power and nature, but at the same time He was perceived that way by characters who didn't buy into the idealism of Unity so much as its necessity. AD-B has been at pains to point out that Land and Ra's perceptions do nothing to invalidate those of the Primarchs, Grammaticus, Pius, etc. He still acted for the good of mankind as a whole as opposed to beings who wanted to use the entire species as playthings for all time.

 

As for a golden age, the Crusade era was in comparison to the Age of Strife. The Imperium of 30K was built in about two centuries from that mess, and on a constant war footing to boot. It's a staggering achievement when seen that way.

[Scribe]

You don't have to look at any one interpretation though.

 

Simply look at the deeds.

 

Was humanity forced at gun point to join the Emperor, world by world? Yes.

 

Was any Xenos empire in the way obliterated if they had a chance? Yes.

 

Where mistakes made with several of the Primarchs beyond any reasonable explanation, so much as we have been provided? Yes.

 

Any interpretation of the Emperor that has a Noblebright tint, has no basis in reality. :p

[Lord_Caerolion]

Was the Emperor the best of the available claimants? Definitely. Does that make him actually good? Not at all.

[Kasper_Hawser]

/

 

I've read MoM in full about five times now, and I really don't think it translates to the heretics being right. The Emperor was dehumanised by His power and nature, but at the same time He was perceived that way by characters who didn't buy into the idealism of Unity so much as its necessity. AD-B has been at pains to point out that Land and Ra's perceptions do nothing to invalidate those of the Primarchs, Grammaticus, Pius, etc. He still acted for the good of mankind as a whole as opposed to beings who wanted to use the entire species as playthings for all time.

 

As for a golden age, the Crusade era was in comparison to the Age of Strife. The Imperium of 30K was built in about two centuries from that mess, and on a constant war footing to boot. It's a staggering achievement when seen that way.

 

I think at this point, I'll no longer debate if the Emperor had good intentions or not regarding his whole convoluted plan and endgame for humanity vs chaos. I just wish instead of dehumanizing the Emperor and subsequently, his creations including our topic of discussion, Leman Russ, they actually portrayed him as an actual human, albeit an immortal one and one with possibly the best macro view of humanity seconded only by Malcador. Its like after the creation of TTS by Bruva Alfabusa, which hilariously depicts him as grumpiness incarnate but still human in a way we can all enjoy and understand, Black Library purposely made the Emperor as inhumane as possible yet still try to justiy that his is the only way the humanity has a chance of surviving and thriving.

 

@ Bluntblade, yeah, by Age of Strife standards, the Crusade really was a golden age even by normal living standards despite the constant war.

 

I hope when Russ returns, he really puts that brain and charisma of his to good use other than just killing things fast and furious. Preferably tempering Guilliman's overthinking with a bit of on the spot tactical thinking and intuitive flair. I think we can all agree that Space Wolves of his time and now are better with on the spot necessities.