What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Kasper_Hawser]

@ therealmcgath - probably not your intention, but it does seem like you are bent on taking the awesomeness out of the Space Wolves. But I'll grant that due to this rather furious debate (thankfully a good and rational one so far if a little heated) that there is precious material and literary indisputable evidence of the "awesomeness" of the Space Wolves. And admittedly, even I want something to differentiate the Wolves as better, not just different from other Astartes.

 

But I got my head out of the clouds long ago that the Wolves are in anyway +1 marines. I don't even think this was the intention BL Library books thus far. They almost always never mention whether the Wolves are better in a fight/war/campaign than other Astartes, the only consistent thing that comes through is that they are willing to follow the Emperor's order to the death no matter how distasteful or unrealistic. The watchpacks come to mind. 

 

Some people might say that my signature quote indicates that I believe the Vlka Fenryka are in anyway, better than other legions. But to me, Ogvai is just stating that the "act" of barbarian, is mostly just an act. And in any case, he was explaining to a potential spy Hawser (who was a spy but unwittingly, and for different sides).

 

I don't think I'll comment on the executioner thing, because it feels like we going back and forth on the subject. I think I've accepted in my heart that the Wolves were not very cool or important or awesome during the Heresy or even during Great Crusade. But that does not mean the Wolves are undeserving of admiration and for my part, I still connect with the Space Wolves despite their checkered and uncertain history.

 

Whatever his role was during before and during the heresy, I believe Russ in the end tried (maybe succeeded) in becoming a protector of the Imperium after the Heresy. From rabid dog to guard dog, for that I'll love him.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I certainly don't mean to bash the Space Wolves, and I really have enjoyed this back and forth, but I see what you mean. It seems like I've begun talking in circles. It seems that, more than any other legion, there is a unique separation between the online meme version of the Space Wolves and the textual sources we actually see. Maybe I've been burned to many times on Reddit with the subscribers to the former and not enough of the later, being confrontational or anything is certainly not my intent. I do enjoy the niche the Space Wolves fill in the universe

[Memento Of Prospero]

I do enjoy the niche the Space Wolves fill in the universe

Fun fact, niche in french is a dog house.

 

Coincidence? I THINK NOT!

[Lord_Caerolion]

Has anybody considered that, given the undying loyalty to the Emperor displayed by the Wolves, that the Watch-packs weren't dispatched with the expectations that they'd be able to execute a Primarch if that's what was needed, but rather to act as canaries in the coal mines? We already know the Custodes brought a Blood Angel along for exactly that reason during the War in the Webway, perhaps it was more that when they stop getting updates from the Watch-packs, that Legion can be considered to have turned.

 

And Kasper, the Wolves were definitely cool and awesome during the Crusade and Heresy both, just check out the Forge World book. They had the second Primarch discovered, were one of two Legions trusted for the Rangdan Genocide campaign, and were part of the Trefoil. The Emperor certainly had them marked out for a greater purpose. Just because Abnett oversold them, and now people bash them because they've become a meme, doesn't make them any less awesome.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Has anybody considered that, given the undying loyalty to the Emperor displayed by the Wolves, that the Watch-packs weren't dispatched with the expectations that they'd be able to execute a Primarch if that's what was needed, but rather to act as canaries in the coal mines? We already know the Custodes brought a Blood Angel along for exactly that reason during the War in the Webway, perhaps it was more that when they stop getting updates from the Watch-packs, that Legion can be considered to have turned.

 

 

That is exacting what Scribe and I agreed on in the BL subforum. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

I mean, given what we know of the Alpha Legion ambush on Guilliman, I have no doubt that a well-timed ambush from a Watch-pack could probably kill a Primarch, but let's face it, the first step of any rebellion is going to be "hey guys, howsabout we kill the Space Wolves specifically placed here to try to kill us if we do what we're planning?"

 

So can we all at least agree that the Space Wolves were definitely marked out for a unique purpose (they were part of the Trefoil, and had the Canis Helix deliberately added as part of their geneseed, which had to serve some purpose), and that while they weren't individually better than any other Legion (like all of the Legions), they were certainly trusted to carry out specific tasks over other Legions (see the Rangdan Genocides). Russ certainly saw themselves as the Executioner, but they certainly weren't a Super-Legion in any particular regard.

 

Whether the Emperor viewed them as Primarch/Legion-killers, I have my doubts on, but again, the Rangdan Genocides certainly gives us a period of time in which two Legions could have gone missing, and the Wolves were definitely brought in to deal with the aftermath.

[Caillum]

Yeah, the Watch-Packs add an interesting element to the “role” of the Space Wolves...

 

But firstly, I believe the executioner title must be strongly considered, given the amount of times it is used in the novels. Historically, an executioner was an official of the law who carried out a death sentence. This is meshes with the Trefoil concept that they were some sort of enforcer/police/judicial force. When you look at the “Observed Strategic Tendencies” in Inferno, they list Shock Assault, Search and Destroy, Pursuit Operations, Punitive and Excoriation Campaigns. This is almost like S.W.A.T., with the added sentencing aspect.

 

Now, the Watch-Packs... this sure was a pretty unique siutation. No other force had this sort of authority or autonomy over the Legions except for the Custodes. The fact that they were a Legion themselves only made it more special. This again meshes with the Trefoil concept.

 

I also like the “canary in the coal mine” idea. Interesting...

[Guest]

I think it is a good idea to remove the executioner title for the SWs as they seem more as "enforcers", "SWAT", or "military police". Sure they may have to end some Primarch but they also make sure others keep in line.

[Huggtand]

I agree that discussing the wolves often derails. There seems to be a lot of haters and rabid fans that don't want to discuss and just shouts at each other a meme-level   Thank everybody in this thread for an interesting discussion 

 

I don't want to pick on you personally TheRealMcCagh, but your post has some things I would like to expand on.

 

 And if we look at what the Wolves and Russ actually accomplished, not supposedly did, or were implied to have done, their plate is pretty empty.

 

If we look at what is known of the sixth legion from what both FW and BL have written they were a successful and respected (at least martial) legion. They where the butt of many jokes from others because the canis helix and barbarian ways but no one questioned their effectiveness "in universe". Their campaigns and battles in the great crusade are apparently not failures. Yes they don't build up empires or conquer swats of the galaxy, though they could have if wanted to, but that was not their role either. There is a very good exchange between Russ and the Lion that shows that in "Leman Russ - The great wolf". What I can see in the fluff they were as successful in their role as any other legion in theirs. Their barbarism is also mentioned many times as in part a ruse, and they show a lot of times in the fluff that they are a disciplined force able to do complicated missions and not just slavering charge in en masse killing all.  

 

Every legion was capable of a wide range of warfare that's not really gets coverd in the novels. The writers often focus just on the most well known aspects of a legion in an often small setting. When for example did we read of the Death Guard fast attack squadrons, or the Alpha Legion trench warfare? FW black books are the best source for this picture and we see there that the different legions are basically the same in what tools they have available. There is then of course a preferred style of warfare for different legions and all of them had specialties they where extra good at but basically they could all do the same things.

   

 

 

 

As far as getting their butt kicked, let us remember they are a broken legion after Prospero and that Horus specifically tasks people to harass the SWs the whole time.

 

 

Horus not being a total idiot isn't a testament to the toughness of the Space Wolves. He does the same to the Khan and Medusan and every other loyalist that he passes over. He sends Sanguinius and the Lion to the corners of the galaxy so he doesn't have to worry about them. Does he sit around a fret over the big scary wolf? No, because Russ can (and is) dealt with pretty easily. He doesn't even need to do the dirty work himself. Just rile Russ up and let him loose, he doesn't even order him to do anything, he knows what Russ will do because he's predictable. 'Hey man, I know the Emperor told you what to do, you have a written order what to do, you have Valdor telling you what to do, but c'mon man, we both know what really needs to be done. I also know you've been warned I might be a traitor, but don't believe it, that's just what the enemy wants you to think.'

 

I would not say they were a broken legion. They were spent after heavy losses and where resupplying and repairing when they got ambushed by the AL. The factors that they were taken by surprise (nobody knew about the rebellion yet), they were heavily outnumbered and that the sixth was not experts in void warfare resulted that they took a heavy beating and was forced to retreat into the Alaxxes Nebula. You could say that Alaxxes was their drop site massaker.

 

Horus wanted both the SW and the TS both taken out of the picture just as any other legion he thinks will remain loyal to the Emperor and see the sanction of Magnus as the perfect moment to let them take out each other. Why Russ change the mission to a kill mission is discussed in many threads on B&C but if you read Inferno it boils down to a couple of points. 

• Horus speaks for the Emperor as warmaster. If he says that there been a change of order why would anyone not obey this? Horus i appointed as the commander by big E himself and no one saw any reason to mistrust him until it was to late. Now it helped that Russ already miss trusted Magnus but Russ had no reason to believe that the change of plan was not legit and the killing part was still second hand objective.
• When at Prosbero Russ tries to contact Magnus to get him to surrender peacefully. There is several novels and Inferno where we see that Russ did not really wanted to go in with force if he not had to.
• When they do go in the wolves is restrained to just pick out the military targets. The slaughter of civilians is the work of a Sons of Horus detachment thats tagged along to pick up psychic candidates for themselves.
• When all goes to hell in a handbasket and Prosbero starts to be overrun with the warp both the wolves, custodes and sisters switch to exterminatus. Not just the wolves.

Inferno from FW is really the only source that shows the whole picture of the burning of Brospero.

 

 

In fact, a whole legion of Space Wolves seems weird. I can imagine a thousand Fists manning a wall, or a thousand UM walking around an army encampment. But a thousand Space Wolves sitting around just doesn't seem normal. It's like anything above a pack would just be getting in each others way. Which I guess fits the wolf motif, it's not like there are packs of hundreds of wolves.

 

Why is it weird? The wolves is not depicted in any other way that the other legions regarding their basic military organisation. Just because we often only see a small fragment of them in the novels doesn't mean that they don't funktion on the macro level. If they only get in each other's way when they operate in their hundreds they would´t have functioned as a legion at all (and they apparently do). This ties in to my first point above.

 

 

 

This might seems like a crude comparison, but I see the Space Wolves like I'd see a dictator's army. Marching back and forth and flashing their weapons around, hoping that the saber rattling alone will deter a conflict. But when the other side doesn't back down (like Angron) the fight ends poorly. 

 

I really don't agree with that comparison since they are successfully campaigning in the great crusade as well as apparently being involved in certain sanctions. The one thing does not exclude the other.

 

It didn't ended poorly from a tactically standpoint for the wolves, they (Russ and the wolves) could have beaten both Angron and the WE albeit at a heavy cost. In universe Lorgar points this out for Lorgar in the same book. So it ended poorly but not because that the SW wasn't able to beat the WE. I think Laurie J Goulding put it best in another thread :

 

"I think that's the thing that people can't grasp - there was no winner. (Ironically, it's exactly the same as arguing on the internet... the moment you do, you've lost. Everyone loses.)

 

Russ went in all bolshy and throwing his weight around, looking to reprimand or humble Angron. But that's like a red rag to a bull. Angron would have fought TO THE DEATH over something that Russ intended as a demonstration of authority (when he didn't really HAVE total authority, or sanction to do it). He initiated a fight, then realised that his deranged brother would be like a rabid dog, and gladly self-destruct rather than back down.

 

This isn't intended to show which primarch is stronger. It's supposed to show how upsetting mental illness can be.

 

Angron (and I say this as one of the biggest World Eaters fans ever) was a brain damaged, irrational monster. Russ wanted to put this upstart in his place, but instead kicked off a fight that should never have happened. When he realised this, and he saw how much damage his ill-thought-out actions could have, he walked away.

 

So Angron thinks he "won". Russ could have killed all of the World Eaters and their primarch, but decided not to... mainly because he realised that he himself had been a bit of a dick about it. A moral victory, but definitely a shoddy situation that he himself initiated.

 

Russ should be ashamed, and Angron should be muzzled. There's no victory here."

 

 

I think most of the misunderstanding and hyperbole from both haters and fanboys is because that they actually don't read the source material. It´s also a problem that the best source for 30k wolves is Inferno, and rather expensive, witch also becomes a barrier to get the whole picture.

 

Sorry for the long post  

Edited February 2, 2018 by Huggtand

[Kasper_Hawser]

I certainly don't mean to bash the Space Wolves, and I really have enjoyed this back and forth, but I see what you mean. It seems like I've begun talking in circles. It seems that, more than any other legion, there is a unique separation between the online meme version of the Space Wolves and the textual sources we actually see. Maybe I've been burned to many times on Reddit with the subscribers to the former and not enough of the later, being confrontational or anything is certainly not my intent. I do enjoy the niche the Space Wolves fill in the universe

 

Noted, the argument seems to be revolving around the meme rather than the actual literary nature of the Russ and his Wolves. And admittedly, some people overdo the executioner thing, which as some has mentioned, is not THAT glorious, at worst being just an axeman of a chained criminal, on the other spectrum, actually hunting down the quarry and executing them in front of everyone. Not very many find the balance between the two extremes. No worries McGagh.

 

 

Has anybody considered that, given the undying loyalty to the Emperor displayed by the Wolves, that the Watch-packs weren't dispatched with the expectations that they'd be able to execute a Primarch if that's what was needed, but rather to act as canaries in the coal mines? We already know the Custodes brought a Blood Angel along for exactly that reason during the War in the Webway, perhaps it was more that when they stop getting updates from the Watch-packs, that Legion can be considered to have turned.

 

And Kasper, the Wolves were definitely cool and awesome during the Crusade and Heresy both, just check out the Forge World book. They had the second Primarch discovered, were one of two Legions trusted for the Rangdan Genocide campaign, and were part of the Trefoil. The Emperor certainly had them marked out for a greater purpose. Just because Abnett oversold them, and now people bash them because they've become a meme, doesn't make them any less awesome.

 

Haven't read any of the blackbooks, but I heard fourth hand Trefoil means there was supposedly something unique about the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Alpha Legion that required them to be set apart from the other legions for development and training during the early days. Also not sure what the Rangdan genocide was (spoilers acceptable to me), but to me, every Legion has had their own difficult battles and campaigns in the past so would hardly be unique. The Dark Angels I heard were once more numerous than the ultramarines before a particular campaign reduced them to levels that was below the smurfs.

 

Unfortunately, all of this seems to be "Tell and Don't Show" reminicent of Matt Ward, so once again we're left with little "indisputable proof" of their awesomeness. Then again, at least we don't have ridiculous feats of Mary Sue like Vulkan being a perpetual. And at least we got decent authors writing Wolves novels even if they are polarising to the fans. Compared to the treatment of Lion by Gav thorpe and the Salamanders by Nick Kyme, I'll take this polarising debate any day.

 

Anyway Lord Caerolion, thanks for trying to reassure me of the Wolves awesomeness. Hopefully I can get to read Inferno and arrive at that conclusion myself.

 

@ Huggtand - Sorry, I wrote my post before I read your post. Again I thank you for your analysis and citation, especially Laurie Golding's comments. As mentioned above, I really need to get hold of Inferno from someone and arrive at the conclusion that the Wolves are still as awesome as any other Legion, rather than constantly having their awesomeness questioned not just by the internet, but by myself as a Space Wolves player and fan.

 

as a context why this topic touches me, the main reason I picked Space Wolves as my army in 40K, was that at the time, I thought they were the closest thing to good guys in the 40K universe. Bear in mind this was back in 5th edition when i started. Even when I read about their reputation from various authors particularly about their brutality and "no give a damn about mortals", it did not stop me from admiring them as I knew they had forged themselves to something different 10K years later, which is more i can say for most chapters.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Kasper_Hawser

[b1soul]

I don't think the SW were, man for man, any better or any worse than any other Legion's warriors.

 

They had a mixture of extreme loyalty coupled with delight-in-violence. 30K SW under Russ were also less idealistic. They were content to do butcher's work as long as it was the will of the alpha wolf among alpha wolves (the Emperor).

 

The Emperor could assign them gruesome, grueling, or highly unpleasant tasks...and they would see it through (or die trying).

 

I do not think the SW were "anti-Astartes". This implies they were a hard counter against other Astartes, which was never the case.

 

Throw a company of SW against a company of EC or UM or WS or what have you, and it's going to boil down to circumstances. The average SM vs. the average non-SW in a duel is going to be a coin toss.

 

I think that perhaps the SW had the best psychological profile to be the Emperor's loyal butchers.

 

The WE were failed butchers who couldn't be relied upon to follow orders or any plan more complicated than charge en masse and swing your blades. Their primarch was half-mad and intensely resented the Emperor. The Night Lords were similarly (though not identically) twisted.

 

The SW seemed psychogically resistant to atrocity, either witnessing or committing them. Even in the absence of Chaos, prolonged and intense exposure to atrocity warps one's psyche.

 

There's the risk of starting to enjoy butchery too much. Yes, the Wolves enjoyed violence but they could still follow orders. They weren't quite as blood-mad as the WE or sadistic as the NL. These legions actively engage in atrocity at their own whim. Russ still retained some sense of duty and honour.

 

There's also the risk of becoming bitter nihilists...or even worse, developing resentment or contempt against the Emperor for issuing such cruel orders, becoming disillusioned or detached from the Imperium and humanity, to the point that one becomes consumed with spite.

 

The Emperor failed miserably at the psychological management of his more volatile or fragile sons. Russ and his SW absolutely loyal (probably thanks to those canis genes) and able to commit numerous atrocities while keeping most of their sanity.

[b1soul]

TLDR

 

You don't want to use builders as destroyers. They will turn against you or lose faith in your vision.

 

You don't want destroyers who enjoy their job so much they start taking it upon themselves to inflict destruction at their own whim and not your command.

 

That leaves us with the Wolves as the Emp's loyal destroyers

[LukeTheButcher]

 

 

Your point was that in our history executioners don´t go on dangerous missions, or get picked for martial prowess against certain targets and that is correct. But in the 30K fluff the wolves as the "executioners" do that.

 

 

Then why does Angron, a Primarch in 30k, mock Russ for the title? Saying it is simply killing helpless prey? I would understand if there is a disconnect between what executioner means in reality, and what it means in 30k, but the fact that Angron says it within the literature, tells us that an executioner in 30k is the same as what it is in the real world. So why are we making a distinction? 

 

 

Later to the party as always and catching up. But saw this and had to post...

 

You are making an error. What is written in Angron's interpretation of executioner, based on his experiences and knowledge shaped by the home world he was raised on. It is not a carte blanche interpretation for the whole of the 30k setting.

 

An why is it used? Its catch and sounds cool. End of. It rolls off the tongue better than 'purge squad' which sounds like a toilet cleaner. and while the Space Wolves have this reputation, I don't see why there is such a problem (seemingly from the posts I've read an issue you share) with the Wolves 'big-ing themselves up'. Why shouldn't they? All Legions do. Bragging and glory go hand in hand.

But every Wolf leaning poster has agreed they are no better than any other Legion. And given the Wolves treatment I the fictions, I think they need to have that shtick to counter being repeatedly kicked (Classic Wolverine syndrome - He can take a kicking, so lets kick the out of him all the time!). 

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

Haven't read any of the blackbooks, but I heard fourth hand Trefoil means there was supposedly something unique about the Space Wolves, Salamanders and Alpha Legion that required them to be set apart from the other legions for development and training during the early days.

 

You've got it a bit backwards I think. Those three Legions were definitely set apart, raised and trained in greater secrecy than the other 17 Legions, there's no real way to dispute that. Which leads to the natural conclusion that there was something unique, in design and/or intended function, about those 3 Legions. Personally my preferred interpretation is that those 3 represented either the 'intended to survive' Legions (not my preferred, as I don't like the idea that the Emperor was always going to Order 66 the Legions) or the 'internal affairs' arm of the post-GC Imperium, with the Sallies guarding the Webway, the AL being the space FBI and the Wolves being the 'enforcers'.

 

 

Also not sure what the Rangdan genocide was (spoilers acceptable to me), but to me, every Legion has had their own difficult battles and campaigns in the past so would hardly be unique. The Dark Angels I heard were once more numerous than the ultramarines before a particular campaign reduced them to levels that was below the smurfs.

Although details have been sparse in the black books, the Rangdan Xenocides were a series of at least three wars fought, starting in the 860s, against a particular dangerous xenos race, the Rangdan (obviously). They were really bad times, described as the greatest existential threat, and the heaviest losses, the Imperium faced before the Heresy. There's even some indication that it may be how the Lost Legions became lost (personally I don't agree, I think the snippet in Inferno is FW trolling the fans a tad). You're right about the DAs, they're on record as losing something like 50,000 men, marking the end of them as the biggest Legion.

 

The unique bit was the aftermath. After the overall threat of the Rangdan was ended by the Emperor's personal involvement, there were a lot of unspecified taint behind that required decades of 'bio-pogroms' and entire secotrs depopulated to ensure the threat could never resurface. This is when the Wolves were brought in, alongside the surviving DAs, to do the cleanup wars. This is when a lot of the 'executioner'/dark reputation of the VI really started to take root in universe.

 

 

as a context why this topic touches me, the main reason I picked Space Wolves as my army in 40K, was that at the time, I thought they were the closest thing to good guys in the 40K universe. Bear in mind this was back in 5th edition when i started. Even when I read about their reputation from various authors particularly about their brutality and "no give a damn about mortals", it did not stop me from admiring them as I knew they had forged themselves to something different 10K years later, which is more i can say for most chapters.

This does remind me of something of a missed opportunity. When I first read PB I was intrigued how we went from the Wolves as amongst the most dreaded (please no more semantic arguments on this point) Legions to one of the nicest Chapters by m41. Sadly I think BL have missed a trick with the 'Russ has a crisis of faith and decides the Wolves must change drastically' (which isn't bad, in and of itself). What would've been far more interesting imo (albeit harder to pull off), is if the Wolves hadn't changed that much, maybe just a bit of a shift towards defence over conquest (thus helping to explain some of the 'altruism', pointless death does not benefit the Imperium). Instead the Imperium has changed around them. It would also help the (increasingly abandoned, it seems) idea of the Great Crusade as a real lost Golden Age, that those who were once feared, distrusted and 'dark' are now held up as exemplars of nobility and virtue, despite doing very similar things.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds pretty grimdark to me .

[Lord_Caerolion]

Ok, turns out it was the Rangdan Xenocides. The passage is as follows:

 

The turning point for the Legion perhaps came during and after the Rangdan Xenocides of the 860s. At last the Expeditionary Fleets had breached the Eastern Fringe of the galaxy and in doing so had attracted the attention of the Rangdan Cerabvores, a species of such macabre power and technological might it seemed, for a time at least, that the Imperium had met its doom. Facing waves of attack from the galactic east and north, and suffering losses that would not be exceeded until the dark days of the Horus Heresy, the wars of the Rangdan Xenocides were the most terrible of any yet fought. Whole Expeditionary fleets went to their deaths without a single survivor, worlds were laid waste, dozens of Titan Legions were obliterated and by the end, entire Space Marine Legions [REDACTED SECTION] lost to the Imperium. Much of what happened during this abyssal conflict is still locked under seal, but what can be said is that with the breaking of the Labyrinth of Night by the Emperor, the threat was at last stymied. What remained was for the Rangdan taint to be purged in a subsequent decade-long series of bio-pogroms that left entire human inhabited sectors lifeless to ensure what was hoped to be a final victory. It was then given to the Space Wolves oth the VIth and the Dark Angels of the Ist - the latter who had suffered themselves so very dreadfully against the horror - to conduct these purges, these two Legions entrusted above all others to do what had to be done.

 

Horus and his Legion, who had been otherwise occupied in the ongoing wars in the galactic west, were now firmly in ascendance in the eyes of the Great Crusade, and with him and those other Legions who retained their strength having not suffered at the Rangdan's hands did the future of the next few decades of conquest and expansion now rest. In comparison to these new paragons, for the Space Wolves now came the whisper of 'executioner' than warrior, and the image of destroyer that had always been theirs in part now came to replace that of savage but noble conquerors in the minds of many in the Imperium. As for Leman Russ, to some he was no longer a wise warrior-king as if sprung from the pages of legend, but a blood-spattered tyrant kept on the Emperors leash, as feared as any who had held sway in Old Night - a keeper of monsters and devourer of worlds, a fiend in Primarch form. Whether there is justice in either of these accusations, or the distrust that also seemed to dog the Dark Angels as well from these times, it is not for this record to judge, except to note that the Imperium endures, but this might not have been so if not for they who bled to ensure its survival.

[Huggtand]

@b1soul, I think that's a very good description of the routs psychological profile. 

 

 

As for their role after the heresy, their shift from a rather brutal legion to the "good guys" chapter after the heresy is hinted in a couple of novels like "Wolf King" and "Leman Russ - The great wolf". 

 

In the first Russ muses over that the psychological culture of exceptionalism and invincible warriors that protected them (from breaking during dirty works) during the great crusade now is a crutch for them since it made them a bit inflexible. They need to become more than that in these new times. Or as Björn puts it, "These things must change... We must become all things to all wars". This is very nice portrayed in the difference between Lord Gunn an Björn during the novel where Gunn is stuck in the old ways of thinking and Björn is seen for Russ as the future. For the sixth Prosbero was a wake up call for change.

 

In the end of "Wolf King" and "Leman Russ - The great wolf", after the siege Russ gets a vision from the Emperor saying that he had getting it wrong. His task was not to protect the Emperor but to protect what the emperor created (the imperium). That's probably the spark thats among other thing makes the wolves change to the caring fun loving guys we all know and love in 40k. It would be really interesting to have a novel focusing on that journey.

 

Both above books are great at describing the wolves a bit deeper.

 

 

@Kasper_Hawser, the wolves are awesome (as all the other legions in their different way). I myself fell for, among other things, their gallows humor and stoic nature and that do not change from 30k to 40k. One constant between 30k to 40k is also the focus on heroic deeds and the need to prove oneself in the face of the enemy. It is more the legions/chapters bigger focus that shifts between the two settings.

 

Now if they only could tone down the wolf theme in 40k i would be happy 

Edited February 2, 2018 by Huggtand

[Kasper_Hawser]

@b1soul, I think that's a very good description of the routs psychological profile. 

 

 

As for their role after the heresy, their shift from a rather brutal legion to the "good guys" chapter after the heresy is hinted in a couple of novels like "Wolf King" and "Leman Russ - The great wolf". 

 

In the first Russ muses over that the psychological culture of exceptionalism and invincible warriors that protected them (from breaking during dirty works) during the great crusade now is a crutch for them since it made them a bit inflexible. They need to become more than that in these new times. Or as Björn puts it, "These things must change... We must become all things to all wars". This is very nice portrayed in the difference between Lord Gunn an Björn during the novel where Gunn is stuck in the old ways of thinking and Björn is seen for Russ as the future. For the sixth Prosbero was a wake up call for change.

 

In the end of "Wolf King" and "Leman Russ - The great wolf", after the siege Russ gets a vision from the Emperor saying that he had getting it wrong. His task was not to protect the Emperor but to protect wat the emperor created (the imperium). That's probably the spark thats among other thing makes the wolves change to the caring fun loving guys we all know and love in 40k. It would be really interesting to have a novel focusing on that journey.

 

Both above books are great at describing the wolves a bit deeper.

 

 

@Kasper_Hawser, the wolves are awesome (as all the other legions in their different way). I myself fell for, among other things, their gallows humor and stoic nature and that do not change from 30k to 40k. One constant between 30k to 40k is also the focus on heroic deeds and the need to prove oneself in the face of the enemy. It is more the legions/chapters bigger focus that shifts between the two settings.

 

Now if they only could tone down the wolf theme in 40k i would be happy 

 

Glad to say I read both of them, Wolf King and the Primarch Series one. Great character development, but sadly both depicted the wolves  getting the short stick of the glory, though less in Dulan than at the Alaxxes. Still awesome in a way, but the trend of the Wolves being unable to fully own their victories still irked me.

 

Best I got out of both books was what I already knew, that the Wolves weren't just idiots viking wannabes in battle and that the Russ was actually much more smarter and wiser than ANYONE gave him credit. Sadly it took the crushing battle of Prospero and defeat at Alaxxes to make him understand the need to change.

 

And then I heard he got touched by that unholy Gav Thorpe and wounded up in a coma, his legion once again had to be saved, this time by the Raven Guard.

 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

@ Lord Carelion - Thanks for the info. I wonder how things got so sour between both the 1st and the 6th after that, if they were both stuck with the same dark job at the end of that campaign.

[bluntblade]

TLDR

 

You don't want to use builders as destroyers. They will turn against you or lose faith in your vision.

 

You don't want destroyers who enjoy their job so much they start taking it upon themselves to inflict destruction at their own whim and not your command.

 

That leaves us with the Wolves as the Emp's loyal destroyers

See the trouble with the Word Bearers.

[b1soul]

I really think Khârn or was it Sevatar had a point when he said the SW behave more like dogs than wolves.

 

Wolves below the Alpha wait for opportunities to challenge the Alpha. But the SW behave more like dogs...or hounds if you will, abslolutely loyal to Master

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think that was a Sevatar quote ADB posted on here as to why the NL's weren't the executioners and the Wolves were. I don't think it was from an actual novel. 

[Huggtand]

It's from the opening of Betrayer by ADB and attributed to Khârn 

 

‘Because we couldn’t be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We’ve all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we’ve all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher’s Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
‘The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn’t behave that way. Only a dog does. ‘That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer.’

– Eighth Captain Khârn, from his unpublished treatise The Eighteen Legions

 

It's a funny dig at the different temper of the two legions, but in real life wolves do obey the alpha leader if he's strong (and big E and later Russ is really strong alphas) so Khârn is actually wrong there 

[TheRealMcCagh]

It would be a fun book if we could get 18 different shorts on each legion trying it's own idea of the Emperors Sanctions

 

Theoretical: How would Curze enact a sanction?

 

Practical: Let's take Curze off the list...

Edited February 2, 2018 by TheRealMcCagh

[Scribe]

Angron was not looking for a fight, and he goaded Russ.

 

I love that story....

[Guest]

I really think Khârn or was it Sevatar had a point when he said the SW behave more like dogs than wolves.

Wolves below the Alpha wait for opportunities to challenge the Alpha. But the SW behave more like dogs...or hounds if you will, abslolutely loyal to Master

You don't have much experience with wolves fo you? Wolves are just as loyal as dogs, sometimes I think even more, BUT only to strong leaders. If you show weakness they will attempt to overtake you. Russ and the Emperor showed no weakness and continued to give the wolves what they wanted. The Imperial Cult is a weak alpha and therefore the wolves do not mind them.

[b1soul]

You're proving my point. There's no true loyalty in a wolf pack. The Alpha cows rivals with its strength.

 

Are you saying Russ would turn on the Emperor if he were in a weakened state.

 

Think about what you're saying.