What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Guest]

My points is wolf and dog are both loyal and the whole "lol space wolves you mean space dogs' is moot. It's like saying "a cat acts like tigers, so tigers are weak."

 

These aren't pure wolves either they are human-esque, so no they won't be killing an alpha because they can think beyond instinct.

[bluntblade]

So in truth the WE are closer to, I don't know... jackals? Ever I write a Wolves vs WE story (maybe a watch pack ends up dodging their hosts having heard about Isstvan) that line's going in there

[TheRealMcCagh]

I think what b1soul is getting at is wolves have a wild/untamed connotation to them. Whereas that quote paints the Space Wolves as very much tamed, thus, not really wolves. More domesticated, like a dog. You could say they are still like wolves, and the Emperor is their alpha; but the quote is saying the emperor isn't the alpha, he is their owner. An alpha doesn't own the pack, he leads it.

[b1soul]

@ Jarl Caldersson

 

I'm aware that sadly "dog" has a somewhat negative connotation. I'm not trying to mock the SW. That has gotten old and is rather juvenile at this point.

 

I'm saying the SW function more like hounds (with the Emp as their absolute master). They would never challenge or forsake the Emp even if he were a chair-bound vegetable.

 

Genghis Khan had his Dogs of War. So did the Master of Mankind.

[kijamon]

Half way through Wolfsbane, a lot of this thread is touched upon in the book.

[Baluc]

@ Jarl Caldersson

 

I'm aware that sadly "dog" has a somewhat negative connotation. I'm not trying to mock the SW. That has gotten old and is rather juvenile at this point.

 

I'm saying the SW function more like hounds (with the Emp as their absolute master). They would never challenge or forsake the Emp even if he were a chair-bound vegetable.

 

Genghis Khan had his Dogs of War. So did the Master of Mankind.

 

lol the underlying assertion is ridiculous though. The being you are suggesting the SW wouldn't challenge is, THE spitting in the of eye of the Chaos Gods, Primaris-Alpha psyker, Master of Mankind. The idea is absurd, and Horus' soul atomization seems like proof enough of that concept.  Even if their loyalty is as cynical as a wild pack animal, it still seems like the prudent choice. 

[b1soul]

@ Baluc

 

Are you saying that the SW only have conditional loyalty to the Emp...conditioned upon the Emp's supreme might? I find that assertion ridiculous.

 

The Emperor is currently a paralyzed vegetable, confined to a chair, who has thoroughly lost his contest with the Chaos Gods. There were even rumours that the Emp was actually dead and the Golden Throne a sham.

 

Yeah...according to Dark Imperium, the Emp is still psychically powerful, but all of that power is focused on the Astronomican, which holds together a floundering empire. The Emp has very little direct influence or power compared to his pre-Heresy incarnation (e.g. obliterating hordes of super-Orks on Gorro).

 

If SW only follow the biggest, strongest Alpha, that wouldn't be the Emperor anymore. Chaos won the HH (both the Emp and Horus lost). Chaos has eclipsed the Emperor. Chaos would also be able to empower the SW beyond their current level.

 

No, I don't think the loyalty of the SW is conditional like that of wild pack animals. I think the SW are the Emp's loyal dogs.

 

The Emp is WAY past his prime by the 41st millenium...the fact that the SW have stuck with him for millenia rather dispells your notion.

[Baluc]

No I'm not making that assertion. That is the point being argued using the Sevetar quotes, and why I mostly ignore them out of hand. Comparing the SW to wolves to start with is ludicrous they aren't animals, the analogy is poor. But even if we take the analogy at face value it falls flat. The Emperor is supreme so even if the SW were loyal like wolves there wouldn't be any difference in their behaviour.  

[Huggtand]

As I wrote in my post; it is a fun pun from Khârn because of their old name but it doesn't hold water when you start to analyse it deeper since a. wolves are loyal to their leader, and b. SW are not the animal wolf but transhumans with some form of wolf part dna inserted.

 

It gets a bit silly if drawn out more than that  

Edited February 5, 2018 by Huggtand

[Scribe]

Half way through Wolfsbane, a lot of this thread is touched upon in the book.

 

Spoilers, feel free. :p

[Huggtand]

Half way through Wolfsbane, a lot of this thread is touched upon in the book.

 

It will be a long long wait until april 

[Karack Blackstone]

In order to attempt to prevent my own internal confirmation bias...

 

I think the Wolves, whether intended or not, are made into the Emperor's Executioners by the need of the Imperium to deal with an issue that quite honestly blind-sided the Loyalists in the Heresy: that Horus chose to side with Chaos. Now, don't get me wrong; Horus may not have chosen in so much as he ended up getting manipulated into falling to Chaos.

 

The single biggest issue with Russ is that, as has been put well already in this thread, Russ is a Loyal person. That he acts like a rabid dog while has the genes of a Wolf is just a part of the hunt. The hunt is what Wolves love; now, with the rebirthing of the Wolves in The Wolf King, if that is the correct story, Russ must have seen that even though he and his Legion were called Wolves, they were not acting like Wolves at that time.

 

The change here into the WH40K Space Wolves Chapter is pretty fundamental, and important, long term.

 

The issue with me is that, Prospero Burns had a great deal of concept as far as how the VIth Legion was presented; the delivery is what is lacking, as a writer. Yes, Dan Abnett is a highly skilled writer. The problem is that, when he tried to add character, he arguably overdid it, and did not provide said delivery in a way that is easy to accept to any reader.

 

I can only guess at the why. Abnett is, as I mention above, a skilled writer; everyone typically misses their mark at some point. The issue, boiled down is that, without trying to start a flame war, in fact, to provide some ice and logic is that, for all the differences in terms of every single one of the 20 total Legions, all of them, despite their best efforts, end up at the same stat-line in game.

 

Please let that sink in; Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote an amazing story in The Emperor's Gift that to me is the single best example of the Wolves, and this occurs after their rework by Russ in the time of The Wolf King. The single greatest issue with perspective is that context is one of the hardest things to convey. Without context, the point is lost as to the why of a thing. The reason that the Wolves were the Emperor's Executioners is that, due to the situation, the variables, the circumstance, and the flat out emergency need of a unit to fill this role, the Wolves had to mold themselves into some form of the big E's murderers.

 

The why of this whole situation is both very complex, and very simple: there was a need. Russ and his Legion fit that said need. The problem is, a Wolf is always strongest when they are free to be themselves. Russ, before the reshaping of his Legion was not truly free. The unquestioning nature of his Legion and their purpose as being someone else's living weapon did not sit well with him, and he eventually figured out the problem.

 

The only one a living weapon should answer to is oneself; the issue here is that, when and where does one work with another? That is what being a part of a Pack is about. Either pull your own weight, or, improve, or, step down or aside and let one more capable fulfill the role which was first handed to you. If the Wolves are to have as much self-control, or, willpower, as to do just what I typed here, and yet end up at the same spot as the rest of the Legions, it was Black Library's, and specifically Dan Abnett's handling of the story presentation that has caused this issue. He could have handled it better; he also could have been far, far worse.

[Huggtand]

I must start with that everybody will have their head canon, so this is just my thoughts 

 

That said there are somethings that is set both from FW in the black books and from different BL publications. The latter is somewhat looser since different authors sometimes have different views on the same things 

 

According to FW (Inferno) the wolves are created among the trefoil Legions hinted to have more specialist role than the “normal legions”. Inferno also states that the wolves are used for different dirty work, sanctions, and such (at work, so going from memory). It is also implied that it is their psychological and cultural profile that makes them suited for this work, not that they are better in any way from the other legions, just profiled for this kind of missions. Even their profile is not enough and after especially nasty works they are memory whipped. FW pushes the title “Executioner” for the legion witch is a title as good as another for this sort of work. Could it have been another? Yes but still it doesn’t imply that the wolves are better, just that they do certain jobs more than other legions. Different legions get different nick names so why not the wolves 

 

Why the wolves? Well, big E made them with this role in mind, and I think b1soul put it nicely with:
“You don't want to use builders as destroyers. They will turn against you or lose faith in your vision.

You don't want destroyers who enjoy their job so much they start taking it upon themselves to inflict destruction at their own whim and not your command.

That leaves us with the Wolves as the Emp's loyal destroyers”

 

I shall also be interesting to read Wolfsbane wish, according to spoilers, touch on many of this subjects.

 

Different BL authors have taken different spins on the wolves, but is Dan Abnett who really first defined the legion in 30k.
I personal love the culture Dan paints in POB. As an Nordic archeologist I can really appreciate how much he got right describing a made up barbarian losely Viking society, their culture and believes and how that is carried along to the legion. Later authors have not really contradicted this picture rather than nuance it in different ways, like ADBs secret names in “Howl of the Hearthworld”. 

 

I don´t think that everybody was prepared to how different the wolves was described compared to other legions and the reaction was that many took different to mean better (my bold). That’s the root of the misunderstanding of the book. Nowhere does Dan Abnett write or imply that the sixth are better than the other legions. There is of course some boasting but not more than any other legion does in any other novel since every legion thought that theirs was the best. Take for example another favorite Legion of mine, The Thousand Sons. In almost every novel from their perspective they think that they are better than any other legion and in some novels they really are supermarines+++. What other legionaries can lift and fly a storm eagle with just his mind? Was there an outcry over this power level? 

 

One great example in PoB that exemplifies the misunderstanding is an oft quoted passage:

"The 6th Legion has a reputation." said Bear.

"All the Legions Astartes have reputations," replied Hawser.

"Not like ours," said Ogvai "We are known for our ferocity. We are thought to be feral and undisciplined. Even brother Legions consider us to be wild and bestial."

"And you're not ?" asked Hawser.

"If we need to be," said Ogvai. "but if that was our natural state, we'd all be dead by now."

He leaned down towards Hawser like a parent addressing a child.

"It takes a vast amount of self control to be this dangerous" he said.

Does Bear say that they are better than the other legions? Let’s se 

 

He say that the 6th have a different reputation than the other legions. Check, in numerous novels the other legions describe the wolves as especially barbaric, ferocious and bestial, more so than the other barbaric legions like WS and LW. Nothing implies better, just different.

 

The second part is that this picture of bestial and undisciplined is somewhat a facade. If they just were a slavering barbarian horde they would not be an effective fighting force. Bear also says that it takes a lot of self-control to be as dangerous that they are. That the wolves are more than barbarians and they put on an act against others are well established. Many authors have touched on this in different novels. That it takes a lot of self-control to be as dangerous as an astartes is a no brainier and just points back to that they are not just an undisciplined barbarian horde charging into the enemies’ guns. Nothing here describes the wolves as better than other, just that they are not just the barbarians other think they are.

 

Again, later writers have actually not retconned anything in PoB what I know, rather than expand, nuance or spin on it.

 

 

There are many interesting aspect why the wolves changes and some of the big reasons that Russ brings up in Wolf King is that their embracing of their legion profile have made them inflexible and set in their way, they self-isolated them to other legions and that hurt them when they needed friend and Russ got a vision from big E that he had misunderstood his purpose and it was the Emperor´s creations he was made to protect, not the Emperor himself. I do hope later novels expand on this change since it gives another depth to the legion and later chapter. 

 

 

Edited sinse i don´t spel well

Edited February 6, 2018 by Huggtand

[b1soul]

@ Baluc

 

Well, I disagree with you there.

 

If the SW exhibited Wolf-like conditional loyalty (obey the strongest power), I think they would have gone Chaos some time after the Heresy

[Huggtand]

To explain the strong loyalty of the SW one can´t just factor in that they have some wolf-DNA in the mix or draw to much comparison between the animal and the human. A sixth legion astartes is still a human (more or less ). We are as much a result of our genes as our environment. How much of each is up in the air.

 

So the SW is mostly conditioned to the Fenrisian culture. The first thing Russ did was to put the legion through a grinder until everybody Terran and Fenrisian adapted themselves to the desired culture. Before this Inferno tells us that there was an culture of an "strongest rule" so we know this wasn't the desired culture Russ wanted.  

 

What we can see of the Fenrisian culture there seems to be an made up viking culture where your word and your personal loyalty is one of the most important aspect. I think that that in conjuncture with an reinforcement from tailored DNA is why SW was so loyal. They had sworn their service to Russ and the Allfather and in that culture you rather die than break that oath.

 

It was a time since I read “Howl of the Hearthworld” but I think it touched on this in the beginning.

[Baluc]

@ Baluc

 

Well, I disagree with you there.

 

If the SW exhibited Wolf-like conditional loyalty (obey the strongest power), I think they would have gone Chaos some time after the Heresy

 

Why do you think that? Chaos allegiance is about worship, and cult like membership which is a mockery of true brotherhood, its about the secrecy and limited love. That is anathema to the loyalty of brothers which is about honesty and openness, or to an Alpha which is fundamentally about trust. The Alpha isn't just the strongest that is a simplistic view of the Alpha. He is also the smartest, strongest, luckiest, most experienced, but also bares the greatest responsibility as the leader. The Chaos Gods aren't leaders, and they carry no responsibility. Part of being loyal is the choice to be loyal that is what makes it a valuable idea. There is no loyalty to the Chaos gods, once you are theirs there is no alternative. 

[Karack Blackstone]

To explain the strong loyalty of the SW one can´t just factor in that they have some wolf-DNA in the mix or draw to much comparison between the animal and the human. A sixth legion astartes is still a human (more or less ). We are as much a result of our genes as our environment. How much of each is up in the air.

 

So the SW is mostly conditioned to the Fenrisian culture. The first thing Russ did was to put the legion through a grinder until everybody Terran and Fenrisian adapted themselves to the desired culture. Before this Inferno tells us that there was an culture of an "strongest rule" so we know this wasn't the desired culture Russ wanted.  

 

What we can see of the Fenrisian culture there seems to be an made up viking culture where your word and your personal loyalty is one of the most important aspect. I think that that in conjuncture with an reinforcement from tailored DNA is why SW was so loyal. They had sworn their service to Russ and the Allfather and in that culture you rather die than break that oath.

 

It was a time since I read “Howl of the Hearthworld” but I think it touched on this in the beginning.

 

I do want to point out that, when one does not have time to think, when one's innate, inner instincts, intuitions, and personal trust of this input from within oneself is only better informed by one that has been taught to communicate internally, for a Wolf, with their inner wolf.

 

When you have been partially gene-altered into a living murder machine of a weapon, quite literally, and the need to have and rely on predatory information to stay alive is the only way to see one through, being part wolf is not something I would deem a problem at that point in time.

[Jackalwolf]

Read most of this and great stuff guys. Couple of thoughts:

 

- No doubt that they were the Executioners until the heresy blew and they lost a key differential to them: being the only legion willing to cross any line and that line in particular.

 

- I think that role is partly by design of the Emperor (trefoil means clearly these three legions had an additional purpose besides the GC, Fenris was a planet tailor made to be a death world and how it is).

 

- This discussion is impossible and has never been had with any other legion which clearly makes the VIth the only candidate.

 

- Capability wise there are some other legions who could have done the role, in my opinion: WE if Angron was not broken, SoH but it was more important to lead the GC.

 

- I really enjoy how polarising we are, it is amazing how in fandom the theme of them being hated by most legions repeats.

 

- Loyalty topic: not the most loyal, at least on par with Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Salamanders. But they were the only legion that loyal and that savage to fit the role.

 

- Russ duels vs Angron: Sorry but thinking Angron won is naive, even Lorgar calls him out after he himself explains the story. Also Laurie Goulding, BL editor at the time said in black and white Russ came out on top but saw he had been an arse and his whole point of a lesson had been for naught so he lost the game anyway.

 

- Russ duel vs Lion: Stalemate for days and Russ stopping to laugh and being punched while laughing in an unexpected way by the Lion when Russ was being amicable is how it's always been told.

 

- Russ duel vs Horus: Not written yet but Horus is definitely stronger and again the wolves failed to realise they had lost their edge of being the only ones ready to kill other Astartes which has been key to the continued battering they've had since Prospero.

 

Finally, I don't mind since PB the wolves have always been on the losing side of conflicts. Again I think it reflects on how all legions are now Executioners and they took too long to pick up on it, making Russ eventually realise they must reinvent themselves.

 

Also, and again in words of Laurie Goulding, despite all the harshes and trials, the attrition and defeat, the VI endured and managed to be one of the most prominent legions during the Scouring so it's not all bad.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Grieux

[Kasper_Hawser]

Read most of this and great stuff guys. Couple of thoughts:

 

- No doubt that they were the Executioners until the heresy blew and they lost a key differential to them: being the only legion willing to cross any line and that line in particular.

 

- I think that role is partly by design of the Emperor (trefoil means clearly these three legions had an additional purpose besides the GC, Fenris was a planet tailor made to be a death world and how it is).

 

- This discussion is impossible and has never been had with any other legion which clearly makes the VIth the only candidate.

 

- Capability wise there are some other legions who could have done the role, in my opinion: WE if Angron was not broken, SoH but it was more important to lead the GC.

 

- I really enjoy how polarising we are, it is amazing how in fandom the theme of them being hated by most legions repeats.

 

- Loyalty topic: not the most loyal, at least on par with Imperial Fists, Blood Angels and Salamanders. But they were the only legion that loyal and that savage to fit the role.

 

- Russ duels vs Angron: Sorry but thinking Angron won is naive, even Lorgar calls him out after he himself explains the story. Also Laurie Goulding, BL editor at the time said in black and white Russ came out on top but saw he had been an arse and his whole point of a lesson had been for naught so he lost the game anyway.

 

- Russ duel vs Lion: Stalemate for days and Russ stopping to laugh and being punched while laughing in an unexpected way by the Lion when Russ was being amicable is how it's always been told.

 

- Russ duel vs Horus: Not written yet but Horus is definitely stronger and again the wolves failed to realise they had lost their edge of being the only ones ready to kill other Astartes which has been key to the continued battering they've had since Prospero.

 

Finally, I don't mind since PB the wolves have always been on the losing side of conflicts. Again I think it reflects on how all legions are now Executioners and they took too long to pick up on it, making Russ eventually realise they must reinvent themselves.

 

Also, and again in words of Laurie Goulding, despite all the harshes and trials, the attrition and defeat, the VI endured and managed to be one of the most prominent legions during the Scouring so it's not all bad.

 

Your arguments are somewhat reassuring, unfortunately for me, it means the Space Wolves lost their awesomeness for the rest of the Heresy, and could only reinvent themselves AFTER the heresy. Not sure Wolfsbane is about, but since we all know Horus made it to Terra, whatever Leman Russ tried wasn't enough to make any meaningful difference.

 

Also the spear looks ridiculous. sigh,.....

[Lord_Caerolion]

To be fair though, that was always the case. It had always been that the Wolves were essentially crippled after Prospero, with their losses during both that and the Scouring so much that they only created one Successor Chapter during the Second Founding. It's basically what happened with a whole bunch of the loyal Legions. The Iron Hands essentially fragmented, the Salamanders limped back to their home world and almost sat the rest of the Heresy out, the Raven Guard came back only through tech-heresy (at least before Deliverance Lost entirely destroyed the character arc of Corax), Ultramarines got stuck in Ultramar, Dark Angels too, and the Siege of Terra was basically the major engagement of the other Legions.

 

The Heresy utterly changed all the Legions from what they were before. It shook the Imperium to the core. To argue that a Legion should make it through being awesome the whole way is missing the point. Even the Ultramarines, the only Chapter/Legion you could accuse of such, were fundamentally transformed by the ordeal, have now been said to have created a heretical Imperium Secundus, and almost plunged the galaxy into civil war a second time by trying to enforce Guillimans pet project on how the Legions should be broken apart and the entire Imperium reorganised.

[Scribe]

- Russ duels vs Angron: Sorry but thinking Angron won is naive, even Lorgar calls him out after he himself explains the story. Also Laurie Goulding, BL editor at the time said in black and white Russ came out on top but saw he had been an arse and his whole point of a lesson had been for naught so he lost the game anyway.

 

Citation, required.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

- Russ duels vs Angron: Sorry but thinking Angron won is naive, even Lorgar calls him out after he himself explains the story. Also Laurie Goulding, BL editor at the time said in black and white Russ came out on top but saw he had been an arse and his whole point of a lesson had been for naught so he lost the game anyway.

 

Citation, required.

 

 

Citation already given in page 5 of this suggestion long ago, regarding the reply by Laurie Golding. I could give you the page number of the novel Betrayer where Lorgar basically called Angron an idiot, but I don't have the novel with me right now.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/328781-weregeld-what-happened-to-russ-spoilers/page-11?do=findComment&comment=4599310

[b1soul]

Angron won the personal duel but lost the tactical battle, which was more important. ..

 

This is from ADB on this forum. It's not just Angron lost on all levels.

[Jackalwolf]

You can read Laurie's quote on the first expedition forums, lore section. He also calls Russ out for being too rash and preempts Angron was at an all time power low due to the nails so he never says Russ is stronger than Angron. Angron was 10 years away from dying!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Hope I don't come across as an Angron basher, i'm very well aware of the Butcher Nails basically giving him little choice (I think) on what he becomes in mind, body and soul. I do feel a great amount of pity and empathy for him, even as he was being tranformed into a daemon prince of Khorne.

 

In the end though, just as I can't run away from Russ being an arrogant (if well meaning) pomp at times, I also cannot run away from the fact that Angron either encouraged or at the bare minimum allowed the butcher nails to degrade his legions knowing fully well the effect on his own mind. Although even that, I can blame on the stupid World Eaters themselves including the swell guy, from taking the nails.

 

Either way, the World Eaters and Angron dug their own holes, not even my Emperor bashing arguments can negate that.