What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[Jackalwolf]

I love Angron, he'd have been the Primarch I'd like the most without nails. Freedom and loyalty are his true persona.

[b1soul]

Then you'd like Dornian Heresy Angron

[Scribe]

Angron won the personal duel but lost the tactical battle, which was more important. ..

 

This is from ADB on this forum. It's not just Angron lost on all levels.

This, was always the correct reading.

[Jackalwolf]

Really don't want to turn this topic into night of the wolf 2.0 so I agree but consider the following at least:

- Russ could have killed Angron at any point without waiting for duel to end

- If we agree the intention of Russ as most accept was to teach a lesson we must assume he wasn't trying to kill Angron in the duel

- Angron was definitely trying to kill Russ because he's Angron

- Hence Russ was fighting controlled against a literal beast that was holding no punches

 

Overall not saying that Russ let himself lose but anyone who's had real and sparring fights knows it's very different to go all out or not, and no Primarch has a chance to win against Angron without going all out.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I don't think any of those points are particularly true. But Night of the Wolf has been done to death. Then dug up and done some more. Then done again before tossing it back in. I'll just say both Primarchs are losers and the entire thing was pointless. (From an in universe perspective I mean, from a reader view point it was great)

[Jackalwolf]

Yep I shouldn't have brought it up. To summarise in topic thoughts:

 

- Before heresy SW were Executioners, the only legion combining loyalty and savagery plus they had the benefit of having the second Primarch.

- During Heresy the Wolves find suddenly all legions are Executioners and take a beating since they lost their key edge: now everyone was ready and used to the unthinkable.

- After and at the end of the Heresy Russ realises he needs to reinvent his legion and does so turning it again to prominence.

[Scribe]

And I think, if you guys believe Angron lost anything, you don't understand Angron. ;)

 

That's not to say the Space Wolves couldn't have killed him they (not Russ) could have.

 

But that's not the point, to Angron.

[Huggtand]

Please, instead of turning this topic into a new "Night of the Wolf" endless discussion  , open a new thread for that.

[Guest]

Please, instead of turning this topic into a new "Night of the Wolf" endless discussion :wallbash: , open a new thread for that.

Don't tempt me. About to call a mod to lock it down. Think we hit a pretty hard yes they are executioner answer.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I still wonder about the "guarding the imperium" thingie that Russ heard supposedly from the Emperor during one of his dreams. Because it seems like an Imperial Fist thing to do, the wolves of the time, and even the wolves now, are hardly good defenders of humanity, at least not to the extent of the Salamanders.

 

For now, according to my 40K understanding, I'm still envisioning them as guard dogs, even if they don't know it and still want to be executioners.

[Guest]

The Imperium is the humans now. The Emperor's goal wasn't to simply have him rule, he could have done that 1000AD. His goal was to get humans to live in the webway away from the warp and the chaos God's. Thus saving humanity from the fate of being tortured by the chaos God's.

 

The wolves have taken a more friendly approach to humans but they have lost their way especially without a Primarch, like most legions. Even Guilliman who attempted to make sure his sons were ready if he died. When he came back he even went "you took this whole codex thing way to far."

[Baluc]

And I think, if you guys believe Angron lost anything, you don't understand Angron.

 

That's not to say the Space Wolves couldn't have killed him they (not Russ) could have.

 

But that's not the point, to Angron.

 

As an "unbiased" third party what Angron thinks or believes is pretty irrelevant to the truth. Some people see a lunar eclipse and see evidence of god, other people see the a moon in front of the sun.

 

We have a more complete pov than each individual taking part in the encounter, and thus can make a more complete judgement of events. What you are suggesting is giving Haig a profession pass because he really did believe he could punch through the lines if he just punched a little harder, and a little longer with an infantry assault. Belief is not a component of conventional truth only facts are.

 

As to the original topic. I'm pretty much in the camp that 1. The plans for the legions were much more loosely defined than people are portraying. 2. That he kept a few legions secret in the case of internal enemies. and 3. Those plans went out the window as soon as he started finding Primarchs, and the reality of waging across a galaxy set in. 

 

However, I think it is interesting to look at the inherent traits when contrasted against other Astartes in close proximity. In Leman Russ, it is interesting to see the difference in attitude between the Dark Angels and the SW. The SW hate Dulan, not in the modern term of extreme dislike. But, true historical hate. To the DA this empire is just another empire that rejected the Imperium no more special than any of the other hundreds the Lion has destroyed. That is an interesting difference, and its not something pre-heresy I've noticed in any legions. Raw hatred for human enemies. Sometimes you see it against Orks or Eldar, or some other Xenos. But, hatred for non-aligned Humans, I can't think of an instance.

 

Was that propensity for hatred gene-bred in? I don't see it in Fenrisian culture other than the hatred of maleficarium, but that can naturally be extended to any psyker or mutant, not pure strain human. 

[Huggtand]

I still wonder about the "guarding the imperium" thingie that Russ heard supposedly from the Emperor during one of his dreams. Because it seems like an Imperial Fist thing to do, the wolves of the time, and even the wolves now, are hardly good defenders of humanity, at least not to the extent of the Salamanders.

 

For now, according to my 40K understanding, I'm still envisioning them as guard dogs, even if they don't know it and still want to be executioners.

 

Guarding the thing that the Emperor created I think is a united humanity under the Imperium of man, strong enough to survive in a hostile galaxy. The point for Russ revelation was not that they alone was to protect the Empire but that Russ had misunderstood his role as he had interped his role before the Heresy to protect the Emperor not his creation.

 

The wolves are one of the few chapters that stands up for the common man and several times has comes to blow with the inquisition when protecting populations against needless extermination. That's the journey they go through after the Heresy. The Salamanders are indeed another chapter that takes this role.

 

I personally still believes in the old canon that the Emperor's plan for humanity was to become so strong psycers that they could resist the dangers to them. The webway was a means to keep together the Empire without the perils of the warp or reliance of navigators or astropaths.  

[Huggtand]

 

However, I think it is interesting to look at the inherent traits when contrasted against other Astartes in close proximity. In Leman Russ, it is interesting to see the difference in attitude between the Dark Angels and the SW. The SW hate Dulan, not in the modern term of extreme dislike. But, true historical hate. To the DA this empire is just another empire that rejected the Imperium no more special than any of the other hundreds the Lion has destroyed. That is an interesting difference, and its not something pre-heresy I've noticed in any legions. Raw hatred for human enemies. Sometimes you see it against Orks or Eldar, or some other Xenos. But, hatred for non-aligned Humans, I can't think of an instance.

 

Was that propensity for hatred gene-bred in? I don't see it in Fenrisian culture other than the hatred of maleficarium, but that can naturally be extended to any psyker or mutant, not pure strain human. 

 

 

I really don't see anywhere that the wolves hate their enemies. Even in the Dulan campaign Russ never says that he hates them. He feels that the wolves are the Emperors vengeance and sanction against traitors and is very passionate about it. In dulan especially since he has sworn to kill the king personally. 

 

In PoB they are quite easy going about their enemies. The only exceptions is psykers but that is more a mistrust or fear than hatred. Of course on an individual level there are more variations. Take for example the passionate distrust against anything touch by maleficarium of Ogvai contrasted with the more cool attitude of Wyrdmake and Bear.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Huggtand

[Baluc]

 

 

However, I think it is interesting to look at the inherent traits when contrasted against other Astartes in close proximity. In Leman Russ, it is interesting to see the difference in attitude between the Dark Angels and the SW. The SW hate Dulan, not in the modern term of extreme dislike. But, true historical hate. To the DA this empire is just another empire that rejected the Imperium no more special than any of the other hundreds the Lion has destroyed. That is an interesting difference, and its not something pre-heresy I've noticed in any legions. Raw hatred for human enemies. Sometimes you see it against Orks or Eldar, or some other Xenos. But, hatred for non-aligned Humans, I can't think of an instance.

 

Was that propensity for hatred gene-bred in? I don't see it in Fenrisian culture other than the hatred of maleficarium, but that can naturally be extended to any psyker or mutant, not pure strain human. 

 

 

I really don't see anywhere that the wolves hate their enemies. Even in the Dulan campaign Russ never says that he hates them. He feels that the wolves are the Emperors vengeance and sanction against traitors and is very passionate about it. In dulan especially since he has sworn to kill the king personally. 

 

In PoB they are quite easy going about their enemies. The only exceptions is psykers but that is more a mistrust or fear than hatred. Of course on an individual level there are more variations. Take for example the passionate distrust against anything touch by maleficarium of Ogvai contrasted with the more cool attitude of Wyrdmake and Bear.

 

I first noticed it in Leman Russ, the Tyrant is a special case as there is political pressure as well. But it is more obvious when you see them and other Astartes fighting together the intent is notably different. Hatred isn't really ever "said" but look at the way he describes destroying the Empire and the Tyrant, its personal in a way that you don't see other Legions behaving. Obviously most of the SW action in the fluff is against traitor Astartes so it doesn't come across frequently. 

[Scribe]

 

And I think, if you guys believe Angron lost anything, you don't understand Angron.

 

That's not to say the Space Wolves couldn't have killed him they (not Russ) could have.

 

But that's not the point, to Angron.

 

As an "unbiased" third party what Angron thinks or believes is pretty irrelevant to the truth. Some people see a lunar eclipse and see evidence of god, other people see the a moon in front of the sun.

 

We have a more complete pov than each individual taking part in the encounter, and thus can make a more complete judgement of events. What you are suggesting is giving Haig a profession pass because he really did believe he could punch through the lines if he just punched a little harder, and a little longer with an infantry assault. Belief is not a component of conventional truth only facts are.

 

 

And this still misses the point.

 

What was the point (in Russ' eyes) of the Night of the Wolf? To show that the World Eaters were broken? To show that Angron had lost control of the Legion? To show that the Legion didnt care about Angron?

 

Angron would have agreed with every single one of those points.

 

Why do you think any of that is relevant to Angron in the slightest?

[b1soul]

Russ thought he could convince Angron to remove the Nails from his legion...yeah

[Kasper_Hawser]

Russ thought he could convince Angron to remove the Nails from his legion...yeah

 

If anyone could, Russ is as good as any Primarch to convince him. Frankly, i don't think even Fulgrim, arguably the most diplomatic of the bunch could do it. If we can agree on anything, I think its that NOBODY can tell Angron anything other than point and kill.

 

@ Baluc - I don't think the hatred is obvious in the Leman Russ novel. As Huggtand mentioned, Russ was more concern about getting the job done then any personal insult the Tyrant might have said. Unfortunately, the Great Wolf was also distracted by two other things that ultimately went badly for the legion in both reputation and performance during campaign.

 

 

1) The emergence of the Wulfen in mature Astartes which the idiot wolf lord tried to keep secret from his primarch. Oh God I want to wring Jorin's neck. They going AWOL to find captured wulfen caused the delay which resulted in Lion teleporting in.

2) The political scenario as mentioned by Hugtand, where Russ found himself having to justify his Legion's usefulness, which further put the Wolf King into an arena which he was ill suited for and needed results

3) The usual inter-legion and primarch tensions which further exacerbated as the 1st Legion is the high performance efficiency version. Its like comparing your middle child and asking him to stand and be like his perfect elder brother. What sibling let alone legion likes that?

 

[Scribe]

Russ thought he could convince Angron to remove the Nails from his legion...yeah

I...don't even know that it's that. Was Russ just testing himself against another Alpha? Maybe.

 

The concept of reasoning with Angron would reflect a staggering level of ignorance.

 

Either way, the point still stands that what Angron thinks, values, and views as the truths of the universe are probably as alien to the majority of the Primarchs, as the Khan's views.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Scribe, please do not straight up state your argument and then instantly denounce anyone who disagrees with you as ignorant, especially when many of us happen to give Angron more credit than is his due on reasoning.

 

Reasoning with Angron has been done before. Lorgar did it during the Shadow Crusade. Horus did it for a number of years when he was Warmaster. Maybe not to the point of Angron making any changes to his character or legion, but Angron isn't stupid. He wants to kill and take heads and if the Warmaster can point him in the right direction for maximum carnage, than all the better.

 

Nevertheless, I think we can all agree that Russ shouldn't have been the one to make the attempt to reach out to Angron. But I refuse.... excuse me, I think it highly unlikely that Russ did it out of a misguided sense of superiority or arrogance. To quote 1d4 chan's rather poignant character analysis of Russ, he wasn't a d i  ck because he was a d ic k, he was a di c k because somebody needed to keep his brothers in line, whether it is Magnus, Angron or the Lion. I can't put it eloquently, you can read here and decide for yourself if you agree with the analysis.

 

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Leman_Russ#Russ_and_his_Brothers

 

One thing we know Leman's role DEFINITELY ISN'T: COUNSELOR or the one who organises family reunions. He's like a giant rottweiler, friendly to those he knows or respects as alpha, fierce to those who don't fall under his protection.

[Guest]

Alright Night of the Wolf is finished. Enough debate about Angron and Russ. If you want to continue the debate go make another thread so you can beat the dead horses fossilized bones.

[Withershadow]

Before, doing questionable stuff the Emperor did not want questioned. After, not much due to how depleted they were, but I imagine various scouring activities until Russ spotted a fire hydrant in the Eye, and just HAD to go to it. Or whatever that whole story is.

 

The greatest irony of the whole 30K theme of “wolves do what needs be done, with no equivocation or feelings” is that that is basically the angle of the Inquisition in 40K, bringing the actions of the Wolves after Armageddon in stark contrast to their 30K behavior.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Withershadow

[Withershadow]

Double post Edited February 14, 2018 by Withershadow

[Jackalwolf]

Before, doing questionable stuff the Emperor did not want questioned. After, not much due to how depleted they were, but I imagine various scouring activities until Russ spotted a fire hydrant in the Eye, and just HAD to go to it. Or whatever that whole story is.

 

The greatest irony of the whole 30K theme of “wolves do what needs be done, with no equivocation or feelings” is that that is basically the angle of the Inquisition in 40K, bringing the actions of the Wolves after Armageddon in stark contrast to their 30K behavior.

Dang never thought about it that way. Actually it makes so much more sense for Russ to disappear in the Eye of Terror to allow the legion to change without his long shadow linking them to the past since he clearly knew they needed to change.

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Before, doing questionable stuff the Emperor did not want questioned. After, not much due to how depleted they were, but I imagine various scouring activities until Russ spotted a fire hydrant in the Eye, and just HAD to go to it. Or whatever that whole story is.

 

The greatest irony of the whole 30K theme of “wolves do what needs be done, with no equivocation or feelings” is that that is basically the angle of the Inquisition in 40K, bringing the actions of the Wolves after Armageddon in stark contrast to their 30K behavior.

Dang never thought about it that way. Actually it makes so much more sense for Russ to disappear in the Eye of Terror to allow the legion to change without his long shadow linking them to the past since he clearly knew they needed to change.

 

 

Hooboy this irony is coming to bite me in my furry behind.