What was Russ/SW role before and after the Heresy?

[TheRealMcCagh]

How can they be dehumanizing the Emperor if he was never human to begin with? He's a 40,000 year old extremely powerful psyker who has set out to conquer and subjugate the galaxy. Nothing about the Emperor has ever been sunshine and rainbows. He had the Primarchs for what? A couple centuries? He's like 38,000 years old at the point, 200 years is an insignificant amount of time to him. He needs to save humanity, if a couple Primarchs need to die for that to be realized? So be it. A few billion/trillion/quadrillion humans? Easily sacrificed for humanity in general, You can't even put a number on saving all humans who will ever exist. Are we supposed to actually relate to a being like that?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Well, the Master of Mankind throws out the alternative theory, that the Emperor might not be what he claims to be. One character (albeit incredibly biased) accuses the Emperor of potentially being just a Dark Age construct gone awry, escaped from whatever lab created it, and now free to act as it so chooses. The Emperor is an incredibly ancient being, born in what became Anatolia, but that's just what the Emperor tells us (in-universe, at least). Of course the horrific Frankenstein's monster abomination created through science Man was not meant to know would hide his origins.

 

Still, we're getting a bit off-topic here, I think.

[bluntblade]

I thought Ollianus gave the lie to that theory.

[Lord_Caerolion]

When did he meet the Emperor, again? My memory is a little hazy today.

[bluntblade]

Not sure, but I thought he met Him well before He was the Emperor.

[Scribe]

Either WW1, or with Jason and the Argonaughts, but I may be mixing that up with one of Abnetts other abominations...

[Jackalwolf]

I do recall being one of the world wars too.

[Huggtand]

I know John Grammaticus met the Emperor once at the Triumph at Pash (Legion) but I don't remember if Ollianus met him.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Huggtand

[Baluc]

I'm pretty sure its with Jason. 

[Lord_Caerolion]

That was other lifetimes that Ollanius has lived, they weren't times he met the Emperor, I thought. Ollanius fought at WW I, and was apparently one of the Argonauts, but he didn't meet the Emperor during those escapades. Grammaticus met the Emperor at a Triumph, but that was post-Dark Age.

[Majorbookworm]

Its a bit of a logical stretch to claim that the traits exhibited by the Legions as a result of them becoming based on and immersed in the cultures of their Primarchs foundling worlds was due the Emperors design, and that they were engineered for purposes suited to traits they acquired later over the span of centuries.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Its a bit of a logical stretch to claim that the traits exhibited by the Legions as a result of them becoming based on and immersed in the cultures of their Primarchs foundling worlds was due the Emperors design, and that they were engineered for purposes suited to traits they acquired later over the span of centuries.

 

LOL, virtually everything we discuss here is a huge logical stretch, especially since GW made the dehumanizing factor so we can't even try to envision what would the Emperor do due to our simple mortal minds. 

 

But yeah, I REALLY doubt the Emperor could foresee everything, including how the rediscovered primarchs end up on which planet and which culture. If he did, then like Tzeetch, his own "just as planned" plots are biting him in his yellow (not golden), behind.

[bluntblade]

Scars implies that the Chaos gods or some other "fates" deliberately matched Primarch to planet.

[Kinstryfe]

I absolutely adore this thread. It's speculative leaps based on the best guesses of the meaning of stories written to retroactively fill in details for even older stories to try to discern what the hypothetical secret intentions were of a man who is written to be an effective god, but may or may not be what he claims to be according to said fictional sources. I love this stuff.

So what do we actually know? What actual facts are we working with? If I have it right, in no particular order we know that...

 

-The Emperor created the Space Wolves with some purpose beyond the scope of a typical Astartes Legion, as part of the "trefoil". So they very likely had some other trait or role beyond that of 17 other Legions.

-The VIth were more aggressive before being reunited with Russ, and more restrained afterwards.

-Russ was the 2nd Primarch to be reunited with The Emperor, and faced antagonism from Horus as a result.

-While not uncorruptible, the VIth's unique Canis Helix makes them more resistant to the corruptions of Chaos than other Astartes (source: used by Bile to counteract hugely high rates of degradation in the post-fall Emperor's Children.).

-Either the 2nd or 11th Primarch was discovered following Russ, meaning that depending on the timeline of their tragedy it is possible that the VIth may have been one of the few Primarch-led Astartes Legions available to sanction another Legion.

-The Wolves took part in the Rangdan Xenocides, specifically making note that they could be trusted to do whatever needed to be done, showing a willingness to follow orders to their absolute conclusion.

 

I'd say that if we assume that A) There was a single Legion tasked with the job of killing another Legion if it needed to be done and B) That The Emperor would have wanted to send a Primarch-led force for this task and C) This was required at some point, that the Vylka is a serious contender for this role. If either tragedy happened early enough, there would have been few other united Legions able to respond to the task. If a Primarch was not needed, the argument becomes muddier. Arguments could be made for the Dark Angels being given the task, as they were notably as willing to go as far as the wolves were. Likewise the War Hounds had already proven themselves while culling the Thunder Warriors, and would likely have been just as effective in that role against fellow Astartes. It could also be speculated that the Alpha Legion could be the actual "executioners". Given the fact that secrecy was demanded, as evidenced by the failed legions being purged from Imperial history, the XXth could have been utilized to undertake the task in utmost secrecy.

If we must assume a special role for the Wolves though, few come to mind that suit them. Executioners certainly fits with their skill set, or possibly a less harsh role as a sort of interlegionary "internal affairs" department. Their use of sending Watch Packs to monitor other legions would go along with this. So too would Russ deciding to take it upon himself to try and set another Primarch on a course correction, sometimes without even being asked. The Vylka could have been intended to simply be the Astartes human resources department, making sure that everyone stayed on task and didn't get into too much trouble. Alternatively, given their extra resistance to Chaos (they tend to wolf out instead of randomly mutating) it is possible that the wolves could have been Grey Knights alpha prototype, being able to sightly more effectively fight an enemy that The Emperor didn't want to let anyone know about. These two could even go together, if The Emperor was concerned about the taint of Chaos corrupting his legions, planning on the Wolves being there canary in all the legions' coal mines, so to speak.

[bluntblade]

The watch packs were created at Malcador's request. The Wolves weren't thrilled about the idea.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I absolutely adore this thread. It's speculative leaps based on the best guesses of the meaning of stories written to retroactively fill in details for even older stories to try to discern what the hypothetical secret intentions were of a man who is written to be an effective god, but may or may not be what he claims to be according to said fictional sources. I love this stuff.

So what do we actually know? What actual facts are we working with? If I have it right, in no particular order we know that...

 

-The Emperor created the Space Wolves with some purpose beyond the scope of a typical Astartes Legion, as part of the "trefoil". So they very likely had some other trait or role beyond that of 17 other Legions.

-The VIth were more aggressive before being reunited with Russ, and more restrained afterwards.

-Russ was the 2nd Primarch to be reunited with The Emperor, and faced antagonism from Horus as a result.

-While not uncorruptible, the VIth's unique Canis Helix makes them more resistant to the corruptions of Chaos than other Astartes (source: used by Bile to counteract hugely high rates of degradation in the post-fall Emperor's Children.).

-Either the 2nd or 11th Primarch was discovered following Russ, meaning that depending on the timeline of their tragedy it is possible that the VIth may have been one of the few Primarch-led Astartes Legions available to sanction another Legion.

-The Wolves took part in the Rangdan Xenocides, specifically making note that they could be trusted to do whatever needed to be done, showing a willingness to follow orders to their absolute conclusion.

 

I'd say that if we assume that A) There was a single Legion tasked with the job of killing another Legion if it needed to be done and That The Emperor would have wanted to send a Primarch-led force for this task and C) This was required at some point, that the Vylka is a serious contender for this role. If either tragedy happened early enough, there would have been few other united Legions able to respond to the task. If a Primarch was not needed, the argument becomes muddier. Arguments could be made for the Dark Angels being given the task, as they were notably as willing to go as far as the wolves were. Likewise the War Hounds had already proven themselves while culling the Thunder Warriors, and would likely have been just as effective in that role against fellow Astartes. It could also be speculated that the Alpha Legion could be the actual "executioners". Given the fact that secrecy was demanded, as evidenced by the failed legions being purged from Imperial history, the XXth could have been utilized to undertake the task in utmost secrecy.

If we must assume a special role for the Wolves though, few come to mind that suit them. Executioners certainly fits with their skill set, or possibly a less harsh role as a sort of interlegionary "internal affairs" department. Their use of sending Watch Packs to monitor other legions would go along with this. So too would Russ deciding to take it upon himself to try and set another Primarch on a course correction, sometimes without even being asked. The Vylka could have been intended to simply be the Astartes human resources department, making sure that everyone stayed on task and didn't get into too much trouble. Alternatively, given their extra resistance to Chaos (they tend to wolf out instead of randomly mutating) it is possible that the wolves could have been Grey Knights alpha prototype, being able to sightly more effectively fight an enemy that The Emperor didn't want to let anyone know about. These two could even go together, if The Emperor was concerned about the taint of Chaos corrupting his legions, planning on the Wolves being there canary in all the legions' coal mines, so to speak.

 

Thank you for your analysis, which is to the point and unlike most of us, references back to black books of HH. LOL, first time I see the Space wolves being referred to as the Group Astartes HR department. Unfortunately, this has negative connotations as well due to nearly every HR department I ever had the misfortune of working with always mucked up their job as quality control for staff hiring, discipline, etc.

 

Makes sense I suppose if they used to provide commissar like roles to other legions. Just wish other legions afforded them the respect rather than disdain they deserved. Or for that matter, the other legions' fanbase.

[Sarto ripped claw]

My thought on this and it maybe coming late in the day is that, the Emperor chose roles for all his primarchs and these got messed about with due to chaoses involvements and separating them from the Emperor.

for instance and this hurts to say (lol) the lion would have been the leader the war master the first primarch sanguinious the ambassado bringing all together as he was adored by all..... except xeno scum Guilliman wuld be the administrator. And Russ, Russ would be the internal securiity doing all that was commanded of him. 

Someone earlier claimed drorn was more loyal cuz reuss did not follow orders. but klets ook at that, whose orders? the orders of Dorn telling russ to stay on Terra?? Well of course Russs did not listen he did not see his younger brother as his superior and righfully so. there were only 2 people Russ would obey the All father and maybe Malcador. You may argue he obeyed Horus but he did not simply go to prospero and burn it, he went and tried to talk to magnus, who petulantly sulked because he screwed up and got told off, Russ went and tried to reason with magnus to return his as requested by the Emperor but when Magnus would not listen he did as instructed by the war master appointed byt the Emperor.

Russ is definitely one of if not the most loyal primarchs he is one of two the Emperor never questions the loyalty of, him  along with the lion. He is also one of the dauntless few counted by guilliamna who lnows that russ can be trusted above all others dorn been another ferrus manus and i think jagatar.

 

Thats my thoughts i hope ppl are still readingh this thread

[b1soul]

I think the easiest explanation is Russ and his legion would neither resent nor enjoy that most taboo and heinous task of attacking a brother legion.

 

Resentment of such fratricide breeds rebellion. Enjoyment of such fratricide breeds corruption.

 

EDIT: Russ was the most stable genius among the primarchs

[Sarto ripped claw]

How can they be dehumanizing the Emperor if he was never human to begin with? He's a 40,000 year old extremely powerful psyker who has set out to conquer and subjugate the galaxy. Nothing about the Emperor has ever been sunshine and rainbows. He had the Primarchs for what? A couple centuries? He's like 38,000 years old at the point, 200 years is an insignificant amount of time to him. He needs to save humanity, if a couple Primarchs need to die for that to be realized? So be it. A few billion/trillion/quadrillion humans? Easily sacrificed for humanity in general, You can't even put a number on saving all humans who will ever exist. Are we supposed to actually relate to a being like that?

 

HERESEY!!!!!