Angelus no more... Malevolence is Now!

[Laughingman]

Anybody actually know what a Calibanite blade or Terranic Greatsword are supposed to actually represent? I assume Calibanite blades are supposed to be a variety of blades (powered or unpowered?) fashioned on pre imperial Caliban, but it was never clear what they looked like, I assumed they could take many forms, same goes for Terran great swords, that I assume represent a variety of swords built by Terran forge masters before unity. it was unclear what they looked like... 

 

In terms of the "lack of AP2 at initiative" for dark angels  I assumed it had in game mechanic reasons (aka avoiding the AP2 arms race). Still would have preferred super-rending 5+ power swords sister of silence have over the +1 strength...

[Robbienw]

 

 

 

Claims that the Dark Angels didn't do much in the heresy are ridiculous

 

They actually fought against the Sons of Horus at Diamat before Istavaan 5, so I think they were the first loyalists who didn't come from traitor legions to fight the traitors.

 

They then fought the Night Lords for around 2 years at Thramas, finally breaking and scattering the Night Lords as an effective large force, destroying about 1/4 of their force in doing so, and capturing several members of their senior leadership.

 

After this, the half of the main force left under Corswains command then fought against the Death Guard under the command of Typhus for some time, against whom they were winning according to the end of Angels of Caliban.

 

The other half of the main force under the Lion went to Macragge and were trapped in Imperium Secundus for several years, but during which time they engaged and destroyed Word Bearer and World Eater forces, and the Lion defeated and captured Kurze, removing him from participating in the rest of the heresy.

 

The force under the Lion then went on to break out of the ruinstorm with the Ultramarines and the Blood Angels.

 

After that the Dark Angels preceded to attack and destroy the traitor homeworlds of Chemos and Barbarus.

 

Then at some point after that they united with the space wolves and headed for Terra, forcing horus to confront the emperor early.

 

Added to that, there was a large independent Dark Angels force which saved Leman Russ and the Space Wolves from being *utterly wiped out* by the Alpha Legion at Alaxxes. There were smaller Dark Angels forces involved the Battle for Tallarn and in other engagements in the Heresy as detailed in some of the Heresy black books as well.

 

So no, the Dark Angles didn't do 'not exactly much' during the heresy.

All of which got added later into the series of both the Forge World and Black Library books. Before that, as I'd said, the Dark Angels didn't do much for the bulk of the war. As such, when Forge World drew up their initial plans for the order in which to do the Legions, the Dark Angels would have been less urgent to get released, compared to the Traitor Legions, the Istvaan forces (which included the Imperial Fists given their importance to the defence of the Imperium), Ultramarines (for Calth), and the Space Wolves.

Well yes, I'm not disagreeing with any of that, just taking issue with your incorrect claim that the dark angels didn't do exactly much during the heresy.

 

Some legions had small amounts of fluff on their actions in the heresy. But that has changed over the last decade or so with all the heresy stuff coming out and the fluff being added to.

 

I'm not saying it's wrong that FW put any of these legions last in the release priority order.

 

Obviously someone has to be last. Waiting is a bit annoying, bit as long as the Dark Angels don't get terrible models like the space wolves have, then I will be happy

Well when Black Library first started, and Forge World began their own thing, the Dark Angels entire contribution to the Horus Heresy was "arrive late with the Space Wolves, then get their home planet blown up".

And, as I said in my post you replied to, and was obvious from my first post, I'm not disagreeing with that.

[rendingon1+]

Actually, in the old fluff (IA) very few of the Legions had any meaningful battles except of Istvaan or Terra, more or less. DA arc is terrible (like some others Legions) and it is a fact that for a moment they seem to be lacking in any meaningfull engagements. IS failure does not count of course. Unless FW will do Thramas epic which they shall. And by epic I mean they give it importance and credibility. 

[Nova_Dew]

While i can see why DA players would be upset about being pushed back (again) look on the bright side, unless they are going to do a major addition to other legions you are pretty much only sharing a book with one other faction or a book practically to your selves (Updates to prior legions take up little space, and the DM might just be an update to standard mechanicus lists) 

BA/WS/Deamons that's 3 unique factions in one book, 1 is a complete list from scratch. BA/WS are rumoured to be having 1-2 less unique units (not counting Characters) than all the other legions at launch (most had 2-3 unique units at launch, both are rumoured to only have 1 each), most other units in the book will likely be updates for everyone like the Destroyer Squads.

 

The WS/BA players seem more interesting in wondering what they will get over what they're not getting and i'm sure most DA players are the same.

 

IF WS/BA get updates and additional units it will be at Terra and how many years will that be?

[Marshal Rohr]

Only the legions who aren’t getting revisited as main characters in a black book got all their units in one go, right? 1KSons, Ultras, and Wolves? Almost every other legion still just has two unique units.

[Dantay VI]

Wolves are also in malevolence I thought

[Marshal Rohr]

I doubt they will get new special units since they have three already. That’s normally the MO. Once you get your three that’s it.

[m_r_parker]

I doubt they will get new special units since they have three already. That’s normally the MO. Once you get your three that’s it.

 

Not true - FW have stated over the past couple of years (specifically in HH Weekender Seminars) that each of the Legions will get revisited over time and their lists will change. They will get new units, new characters and potentially new Rites of War - we just don't know how much of each they will get. We haven't really had that yet, but with the last remaining Legions getting their introductory rules & lists we'll start to see some of the older Legions get their first wave of updates. 

 

This is to show how each of the Legions develop over the course of the Heresy, with the traitor Legions being the prime examples of how these forces will change. 

 

Not only from a narrative viewpoint does this make sense, but from a business one too. By developing the Legions over the course of the book series there's additional models that can be produced and sold, as well as selling the mainline Black Books that they are represented in. 

[carlisimo]

My guess for the Space Wolves is that they'll get cleaned-up rules, rules for a special character (Gunn?), and color plates and models for units introduced in Inferno (Deathsworn and their "Priest" consul types). Alpha Legion get color plates and models for Lernaeans and a primarch model, and finally some information (maybe rules) about Omegon and the split within the legion. More would be great, but I think those are reasonable expectations.

 

In Angelus, I think we all expect the Night Lords to get Atramentar Terminators. That'd bring them up to three special units, right? I don't think FW is going to declare any legion 'complete' after 3 special units, but it'd be nice to get everyone up to that level first.

 

The Blood Angels and White Scars will probably get 2-3 special units but not models for all of them, the way things have been going. That's fine, they're still due for more Black Book action well before Terra. I'm surprised by how limited the scope of Malevolence was said to be - they seemed to be saying it would be only Signus for the BA, and only Chondax for the WS. That leaves the BA's Imperium Secundus arc for later. I think it'd be crazy not to do the Second Battle of Prospero for the WS (where the warrior lodges try to turn the legion to Horus's side and they fight each other) because so little happened at Chondax. Either way, that leaves the next four years (fighting alone behind enemy lines before finding a way to Terra, often against an increasingly chaotic IIIrd legion) for a future book.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I doubt they will get new special units since they have three already. That’s normally the MO. Once you get your three that’s it.

Not true - FW have stated over the past couple of years (specifically in HH Weekender Seminars) that each of the Legions will get revisited over time and their lists will change. They will get new units, new characters and potentially new Rites of War - we just don't know how much of each they will get. We haven't really had that yet, but with the last remaining Legions getting their introductory rules & lists we'll start to see some of the older Legions get their first wave of updates.

 

This is to show how each of the Legions develop over the course of the Heresy, with the traitor Legions being the prime examples of how these forces will change.

 

Not only from a narrative viewpoint does this make sense, but from a business one too. By developing the Legions over the course of the book series there's additional models that can be produced and sold, as well as selling the mainline Black Books that they are represented in.

Yeah, we will see if that holds up.

[Dantay VI]

I really hope its not Gunn. His story ends at Alaaxes doing a death or glory run at one of the big Alpha Legion ships

 

I would prefer it to be Kva who is divided, the caster of runes who catches the DA spy or Bjorn, leading ship borne actions

 

I reckon this will be about Alaaxes, as it would tie WS/SW/AL together quite nicely BA are at Signus fighting daemons SW have a watch pack there also

 

This would be a really nice lead in to the DA book off the back of Alaaxes.... Plus Thramas

[Nova_Dew]

Only the legions who aren’t getting revisited as main characters in a black book got all their units in one go, right? 1KSons, Ultras, and Wolves? Almost every other legion still just has two unique units.

I did mis count, most got 1 special unit in their first outing in a black book, serves me right about counting units in the red book not going through the black books my bad

 

Wolves haven't got the Wolfen yet, Ultra's and DA still have Imperium Secundus if that happens in a black book, 1K sons i dont know if they will be covered again, maybe some/all are at Terra if not already there by canon, i can see some of all legions being there so it doesn't upset any of the player base and means they can make and sell new unit's and characters for everyone or maybe imperial army update to include a mortal, palace/Terran Army units :/

[Marshal Loss]

Alan Bligh said at my first Weekender that when they were designing the Legions, they came up with around 5 special units per force and about the same number of characters, and then distilled it down from there into the 2-3 we see for each Legion currently (I had been asking about the chances of seeing Luperci). It was never said there was any intention to do 5 per Legion, but there's definitely room for more in the future as they likely already have these things worked out, contingent on what battles are covered in coming books. All bets are off until we see a Legion go beyond 3 special units however.

 

 

Wolves haven't got the Wolfen yet, Ultra's and DA still have Imperium Secundus if that happens in a black book, 1K sons i dont know if they will be covered again, maybe some/all are at Terra if not already there by canon, i can see some of all legions being there so it doesn't upset any of the player base and means they can make and sell new unit's and characters for everyone or maybe imperial army update to include a mortal, palace/Terran Army units :/

 

They said Thousand Sons aren't likely to appear until right near the end, if not Terra then close to it, and Imperium Secundus won't be a book, but the Shadow Crusade (World Eaters + Word Bearers ravaging Ultramar) will be.

[Charlo]

Interesting that Secondus won't be s book, but I suppose that pretty much IS the shadow crusade. You just have Curze running around too on a few planets.

 

Shadow crusade book with Daemon Angron though... And Argel Tal... Ooft

[rendingon1+]

At least FW HH will be clean of IS taint lol. Great news :-)

[Theredknight]

Interesting that Secondus won't be s book, but I suppose that pretty much IS the shadow crusade. You just have Curze running around too on a few planets.

 

Shadow crusade book with Daemon Angron though... And Argel Tal... Ooft

Where did fulgrim get his ‘transformation’ angel exterminatus? You see that could all be rolled into one, IW guys and EC further devolved into what we know now as the pleasure living chaps.

[Charlo]

 

Interesting that Secondus won't be s book, but I suppose that pretty much IS the shadow crusade. You just have Curze running around too on a few planets.

 

Shadow crusade book with Daemon Angron though... And Argel Tal... Ooft

Where did fulgrim get his ‘transformation’ angel exterminatus? You see that could all be rolled into one, IW guys and EC further devolved into what we know now as the pleasure living chaps.

Pretty much the same time as the Shadow Crusade kicks off, as well as Thramas also happening.

 

Unsure how good a story it makes in the black books though as it's really just the EC betraying the IW and some shattered legions are there with Eldar Wraiths too...

[Indefragable]

Ok DA, where’s that Grim Resolve at? I can gripe with the best of them...but yikes.

 

Something to consider about Thramas:

As far as I can tell, DA are the only Legion in the Heresy to defeat another Legion mano-e-mano. I mean, it’s pretty much the full (non-left on Caliban) I Legion vs the ful XIII Legion, right? And the DA come out with a sound victory.

 

Prospero was Wolves + Titans + custodes + Sisters of Silence + other hanger-ons vs Thousand Sons.

 

Istvaan was basically a [REDACTED].

 

And everything else was either ultimately a fighting withdrawal of some sort or 2v1’s etc...

 

Thramas was a full-on campaign by both sides where one side achieved battlefield/space superiority through inflicting casualties on the opponent and achieving strategic objectives while simoultaneously denying the enemy their own. #textbookvictory

 

The DA are a unique force. Between a pretty disctint Primarch, their legacy as the First, and their internal organization, there is a LOT to unpack with them, and that’s before you even get to stuff like Caliban. I know it sucks having things pushed back sucks, but I, for one, am pleased that they seem to want to do it right rather than rushing them.

 

Ok, I’m sick of talking about Dark Angels. Let’s focus on what IS going to be in there.

 

When I first heard Angelus was going to be BA/WS/DA, i was overjoyed because those are the power armored forces I play...in that exact order. Now we’re down to BA and WS and I am pumped to see what they do. Cautious, b/c this is the first work after Alan Bligh (no pressure!), but excited.

 

I really want to see what makes each of these forces unique and am VERY excited for the Exemplar Battle for each of them.

 

Of course...rules for the Khan and...and...and...Sanguinius <swoon>

[Huggtand]

Something to consider about Thramas:

As far as I can tell, DA are the only Legion in the Beresy to defeat another Legion mano-e-mano. I mean, it’s pretty much the full (non-left on Caliban) I Legion vs the ful XIII Legion, right? And the DA come out with a sound victory.

 

 

Mano-e-mano and demon engine 

 

 

Friendly jabb aside, DA is one of the more interesting Legions in HH and I'm really looking forward to read more about them, especially about the early years before Caliban. 

[bluntblade]

Hopefully a Thramas Crusade campaign would serve both the DA and NL well.

[Marshal Loss]

Thramas was a full-on campaign by both sides where one side achieved battlefield/space superiority through inflicting casualties on the opponent and achieving strategic objectives while simoultaneously denying the enemy their own. #textbookvictory

 

Thramas was anything but a textbook victory - without Tuchulcha, they (the Dark Angels) were likely going to be stuck there indefinitely. Not taking anything away from their win, which was comprehensive, but it wasn't just a simple Legion on Legion contest.

 

When I first heard Angelus was going to be BA/WS/DA, i was overjoyed because those are the power armored forces I play...in that exact order. Now we’re down to BA and WS and I am pumped to see what they do. Cautious, b/c this is the first work after Alan Bligh (no pressure!), but excited.

 

You might be confusing Angelus with Retribution, as the White Scars were never going to be in Angelus, which was originally envisaged as an homage to the old Angels of Death book.

 

Hopefully a Thramas Crusade campaign would serve both the DA and NL well.

 

One word: Atramentar.

[bluntblade]

But also I want to see how the Night Lords kept that cat and mouse game up for two years.

[Marshal Loss]

They're fighting over an entire sub-sector, so it's a big space over which to feud. Some worlds were loyal to Horus, others to the Emperor, and many of these worlds were launching their own actions against worlds that supported the opposite side. Add to that the two Legions splitting their forces up to try to take and re-take worlds (both Savage Weapons & Prince of Crows mention as much), and it's easy enough to explain why the Dark Angels were not able to bring the Night Lords to the battlefield en masse. The Dark Angels not possessing an active Librarius - and the Thramas sector bordering the Nostramo sector, so the Night Lords probably had a home-field advantage - presumably also had an impact.

[bluntblade]

Wasn't aware that Thramas was close to Nostramo

[Forward Assist]

Am I wrong in thinking that the significance of the Thramas Crusade were the three 'Triplex' forge worlds, of which only Triplex Phall survived the Heresy?