Angelus no more... Malevolence is Now!

[Supe robot gangster #1]

Maybe even a rule similar to master of the legion? So only X amounts of greater daemons per whatever points (I think it’s 1 per 2k for astartes?). More importantly I think is if they are going the generic route what options will they have? Surely not generic HQ daemon, generic troop daemons etc.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'm not sure where the post has gone, but I made a post a while back over how demons work. From what I can remember (according to Playtesters, but take salt by the bathload)

 

Daemons are not the same Daemons you know in 40k. They might use the models, but they exist much as they do in the HH rulebook, with the edition of Primarch level Daemon Lords and Big Bad Behemoth Super Heavy Daemons.

 

You do not have a Chaos God per se you follow, but you have a Dominion, which works like a Legiones Astartes; all models with X Rule get X rule, but there are no differences between a Lesser Daemon of not!Slaanesh and Lesser Daemon of not!Khorne other than what the Dominion provides. If you really want you could have not!Tzeentch, but model Bloodletters to throw Skulls or Fire. This is to represent the true horror of the Chaos Gods, increasing Daemon variety through modular rules rather than conceptualizing a concept for 4 different chaos gods, doing the same thing, but not having one better than the other.

 

Daemons no longer use Deep Strike deploy, but can pregame deploy post enemy deployment via Warp Rift, (choose 3 points out of enemy terroritory, scatter, can deploy wholly within 12" of that point. So not!Deep Strike deploy. Daemons get weaker as the battle goes on. but are stronger early game to prevent gunlines from killing them instantly (swing of +1 to -1 say). Lesser Daemons have an alround statbuff (think S4/T4) Daemons summoned into play do not benefit from this.

[Elzender]

That sounds nice, a narrative Zone mortalis game with marines fending a daemonic infestation off their ship could be a really interesting game!

[bluntblade]

I'd love to see some "character" Greater Daemons or Daemon Princes like the Ragged Knight.

[rendingon1+]

What is Ragged Knight?

[bluntblade]

Basically a Bloodthirster, but born of a particular conflict - the Albigensian Crusade. To be clear though, I don't expect it to pop up in the Heresy.

[b1soul]

I don't think the Ragged Knight is a Bloodthirster...or am I wrong?

[bluntblade]

I was only referring to its apparent power levels. I may have overestimated.

[rendingon1+]

Ah I See, thanks. What book is he in?

[Sandlemad]

Ah I See, thanks. What book is he in?

 

Shows up in Talon of Horus. It's a good reminder that daemons are chaotic and few will fit neatly into the classes used in the tabletop game. I think ADB referred to him somewhere as something like a very strong herald of khorne or a lesser bloodthirster, if you had to make the comparison.

 

That sounds like a pretty fascinating approach FW is taking with this. Keeps some of the 'new and horrifying' feeling the legions' first encounters with daemons had in the books. Love the variety too, offers as much potential as the Militia list for converters to go to town. Dunno how easy it will be to balance though.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

Ah I See, thanks. What book is he in?

Shows up in Talon of Horus. It's a good reminder that daemons are chaotic and few will fit neatly into the classes used in the tabletop game. I think ADB referred to him somewhere as something like a very strong herald of khorne or a lesser bloodthirster, if you had to make the comparison.

 

That sounds like a pretty fascinating approach FW is taking with this. Keeps some of the 'new and horrifying' feeling the legions' first encounters with daemons had in the books. Love the variety too, offers as much potential as the Militia list for converters to go to town. Dunno how easy it will be to balance though.

Let's hope they don't :cuss that up like the army list of Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, Talons of the Emperor or Mechanicum. :/

[rendingon1+]

 

 

Ah I See, thanks. What book is he in?

Shows up in Talon of Horus. It's a good reminder that daemons are chaotic and few will fit neatly into the classes used in the tabletop game. I think ADB referred to him somewhere as something like a very strong herald of khorne or a lesser bloodthirster, if you had to make the comparison.

 

That sounds like a pretty fascinating approach FW is taking with this. Keeps some of the 'new and horrifying' feeling the legions' first encounters with daemons had in the books. Love the variety too, offers as much potential as the Militia list for converters to go to town. Dunno how easy it will be to balance though.

Hah, interesting. Might finally read that book. I Just hope it doesn't come with "bad crusaders killed a ton of innocent, good people and boom we have a deamon"?

 

I too hope they gave much thought for that list. For now it sounds really interesting and customisable.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

 

Ah I See, thanks. What book is he in?

Shows up in Talon of Horus. It's a good reminder that daemons are chaotic and few will fit neatly into the classes used in the tabletop game. I think ADB referred to him somewhere as something like a very strong herald of khorne or a lesser bloodthirster, if you had to make the comparison.

 

That sounds like a pretty fascinating approach FW is taking with this. Keeps some of the 'new and horrifying' feeling the legions' first encounters with daemons had in the books. Love the variety too, offers as much potential as the Militia list for converters to go to town. Dunno how easy it will be to balance though.

Hah, interesting. Might finally read that book. I Just hope it doesn't come with "bad crusaders killed a ton of innocent, good people and boom we have a deamon"?

 

I too hope they gave much thought for that list. For now it sounds really interesting and customisable.

Indeed it does.

Very interesting and I fancied for a long time now playing a Daemon army. Those stinky Nurgle miniatures look just plain awesome.

[Master Sheol]

What is this thing about the demons in HH?

They act different cause SM never Met them before and don't know the differenze between khorne and Nurgle now?

Khorne Will take your skull noatter of you know his name or not

 

Why FW has to write those silly things?

[Sandlemad]

What is this thing about the demons in HH?

They act different cause SM never Met them before and don't know the differenze between khorne and Nurgle now?

Khorne Will take your skull noatter of you know his name or not

 

Why FW has to write those silly things?

 

Based on other reports from FW's discussions it's partially because they want to get across that during the heresy the chaos gods were moving in lockstep, with a unity you don't see since.

 

Partially, yeah, it's a thematic choice to reflect the BL books. Daemons are new to the imperium so BL took the out-of-universe choice to make them more horrific and less obviously categorised than their 40k tabletop equivalents. This resulted in a much more varied and interesting style of daemonic creature than just... working off the same handful of plastic kits and thinking it represents every permutation of daemon.Think of Samus. Think of the different bizarre forms you have in Know No Fear. It's tricky to pick any one daemon and go 'eh, that's kind of a fiend? No, a bloodletter. No, hang on...'. FW is following up that approach and handing modellers a good opportunity to do something cool, just as they did with the militia.

 

I feel it's a lot more interesting. "Here's four great gods of divine power, of infinite variety and chaos and... their daemons always look and act in these dozen or so prescribed ways". It opens up the playing field to a lot more conversions. More room for weird horrors. It makes them a very distinct sort of force to mechanicum, legions or the army. Apparently they'll have their own set of mission objectives too, to represent that these are weird incomprehensible nightmare creatures who have no interest in the conventional manner of war.

 

From the sounds of it, you could still run a bog-standard brass and blood force of Khorne daemons but then you could use the same set of rules - provenances and customisations in the same fashion as the militia rules - to represent a feverish and aggressive force of Nurgle daemons. Or something much weirder and less comprehensible that wouldn't work in 40k.

 

Will this actually work in competitive play? Eh. Not sure. Still glad they're making the effort, rather than taking the easy route and doing a straight port of the daemons codex.

[Gorgoff]

What is this thing about the demons in HH?

They act different cause SM never Met them before and don't know the differenze between khorne and Nurgle now?

Khorne Will take your skull noatter of you know his name or not

 

Why FW has to write those silly things?

Because Chaos is not something you can squeez into a box. Chaos is change and Chaos is diversity.

After all that's why it is called chaos. ;)

 

I like the new style.

[Master Sheol]

 

What is this thing about the demons in HH?

They act different cause SM never Met them before and don't know the differenze between khorne and Nurgle now?

Khorne Will take your skull noatter of you know his name or not

 

Why FW has to write those silly things?

Because Chaos is not something you can squeez into a box. Chaos is change and Chaos is diversity.

After all that's why it is called chaos. ;)

 

I like the new style.

So Ka'Banda Will cast spells cause Sanguinius and the BA don't know what Khorne is so he Can do It :D

It's like the Looney Tunes that walk into air cause they don't know what Gravity is so they can't bè attracted to the ground by It :D

[Beren]

No, because Ka'banda represents a very specific demon. The army list should be capable of representing both demons such as Ka'banda and Bloodletters, by attributes if not by name, which have pre-cataloged qualities as well as those that do not fit under the standard classifications.

[Master Sheol]

No, because Ka'banda represents a very specific demon. The army list should be capable of representing both demons such as Ka'banda and Bloodletters, by attributes if not by name, which have pre-cataloged qualities as well as those that do not fit under the standard classifications.

So they are deamons of khorne without being deamons of khorne

Nothing stops them to use spells then cause a less rigid interpretation of Khorne May see spells like another weapon and according to Khorne It doesn't matter how the Blood flows, the thing is that It must keep flowing

[Elzender]

Master Sheol, as with most things in both 30K and 40K, adhering to the fluff and the narrative of the Universe is up to the players, the game system just provide the tools to do so. This is actually one of the most prevalent issues in warhammer games, the fact that list optimization and fluff adherence are usually hard to reconcile. Yes, a person could take "Not Khorne" daemons with psychic powers, and it would be up to him/her to come up with a fluff justification if they want to do so. While I haven't played in years, when I finally get to have a functional 30K army I would like to play games with a narrative behind them, even if me and the opposing player make it up right before the game starts. If they want to do a "weird" mix, as long as they have a a curious idea or a fluff justification, it will probably get my OK.

 

Moreover, as other frater have said, these rules are to represent the shifting, unpredictable and confusing nature of Chaos and the lack of knowledge on the Imperial part. In 40K, the Imperial forces have had ten thousand years of daemon incursions, and are able to recognize patterns and themes in the daemons to classify them. However, it is quite possibly not that easy, and the miniatures are just a standarization of the daemons appareance, not necessarily a precise, faithful (pun not intended) representation. Probably not all bloodletters have exactly the same appareance and characteristics, and there may be other lesser known varieties of daemons aligned to each God, and these rules allow the players to represent them. If somebody wants to represent a known, established daemon of a specific God, he/she just has to choose the adequate options to represent them. If somebody wants a ferocious daemon that charges to combat using aggressive, short-range warpfires or conjured weapons, they could do it (if such thing is actually possible by the rules), and it might be a Tzeentch or Slaanesh daemon, or even just a Warp creation.

 

We still don't know if there will be limitations in the mixing of units with different Dominions, and we don't know if there will be obvious equivalents for the four Chaos Gods, but I guess if somebody wanted they could still represent more or less accurately the 40K depictions.

[Gorgoff]

Just think of the abominations the Dark Angels face. Wasn't any of the known subtypes of Daemons. Instead they where only... things.

That is what I hope for.

FW should walk unknown pathes with that so we have to rediscover what Chaos is all about just like the Legions have to.

Having said that I must add that they should give us the option (!) of playing them the old fashioned way (Bloodletters and stuff like that).

[Lord_Caerolion]

The background has always seemed to feature a wider variety of Daemons than just what is shown in the tabletop, or at least a less uniform look. Just look at the novel Emperors Gift, with the lamprey/angel/statue things that appear at the beginning, and other daemons being described as visible only in part, because the human mind can't really comprehend what they are, so we know something's there, but only "see" a flurry of blades, or get an impression of scaled skin, etc. That doesn't exactly translate onto the tabletop (or the argument could be made that the daemon models represent daemons that have possessed a host to incarnate, twisting them into their "natural" form, rather than the "pure" daemons that would be able to freely enter the Materium due to the Ruinstorm).

[Gorgoff]

IF I'll make a Daemon army (and that is a big if, hence the capital letters) I'd go for a lot of third party miniatures to emphasize the variety of Chaos mixed with some GW models.

[Hesh Kadesh]

What is this thing about the demons in HH?

They act different cause SM never Met them before and don't know the differenze between khorne and Nurgle now?

Khorne Will take your skull noatter of you know his name or not

 

Why FW has to write those silly things?

I think the complaint is that the Demons in WH40K are neatly packaged into "these are the hit hard guys, these are the ranged guys, these are the tanky guys, these are the flanking guys", when in reality they were anything but - there are stories of brutally effective Tzeentch Melee Demons who can see every move you are about to make already. An Bloodthirster with a bracket of Exploding Javelins is still dealing a huge amount of damage. Why doesn't Nurgle have "28 days later" style fast zombie demons? Why is a Demon of pleasure not morbidly obese and incredibly slow? So much for "Chaos".

 

Why GW has to write those silly things?

[b1soul]

So we'll be getting Malevolence in the first half of 2019 if we're lucky?