HH 49: Wolfsbane

[SchultzChaos]

This book is becoming what The Last Jedi was for me. I don't feel like buying this anymore. It would need like so much context to make it work in a narrative stand point.

What have Horus been doing after Molech? He has gone through literal hell, something no other primarch has done, to imbue himself with the very essence of godhood. And still he can be swayed by Russ? And how the retreat is described doesn't merge with the starting point in Weregeld! The Wolves are dying in the beginning of that story! Russ is on the threshold of death! What happened?!

 

This whole story would make a lot of more sense to me if they had put the Russ vs Horus duel before Molech. Then it would be another step in Horus damnation, where he can't subdue his brother Russ with his speeches nor in strength, and only finds solace in imbuing his being (corrupting it) with the god power of chaos. It would make it more of a tragedy and give another piece in Russ' arc! He let Horus live, but as a result Horus returns completly fallen to the Dark Gods. Think about the remorse that would eat at the Wolfking as he tries to make everything right, only to turn up at Terra and everything is over. 

[Kelborn]

I see your point but the old lore is still viable.

 

DAs, UMs, SWs and the Shattered Legions are still out there. Most of them are still trying to find their way back to Terra. Their return is still a threat to Horus, right?

 

Does he know that the UMs and DAs are distracted? Are they still distracted? Are they on their way back home? I doubt that Horus is aware of their current state.

 

So him dropping his shields because of him running out of time is still viable, imho.

 

Even after the events of Wolfsbane, the Wolves would never rest. They would hurry back to Terra. Same with DAs and UMs. Having 2 1/2 (1/2 being the depleted Wolves) in your back is still quite of a pressure.

[TheRealMcCagh]

I mean, didnt Russ/everyone on Terra know Horus was coming for them there??? Why the heck did he leave his brothers and the most well defended fortress in the galaxy?

 

 

I can't fault Russ too much for that one, it's not exactly what the Space Wolves were used to and Russ is one of the more impulsive Primarchs. Corax coming and going makes sense. Getting worked up over one persons review seems a little premature, and then making projections for the endgame based off that even more so. Guy Haley has done a real good job so far in my opinion, so I'm hesitant to jump to any conclusions about it being a Leman Russ puff piece. 

 

The wounding from Russ could just be a wake up call to Horus that he isn't as powerful as he thought, so he gives in further to Chaos and is full on demonic by the time he reaches Terra and Sanguinius.

[Charlo]

I've not read the thread spoilers yet.

 

But my god I am tempted.

 

I don't want to wait until May for the Audio ><

[Runefyre]

I'm fortunate to have just been able to order a pre-release copy today, should arrive next Tuesday. I'm so darned impatient!

[Sete]

I've not read the thread spoilers yet.

 

But my god I am tempted.

 

I don't want to wait until May for the Audio ><

Do et. Do et nao. :D

 

My advice is wait.

I read the spoilers cause I won't buy the book.

[Omega-soul]

 

I don't want to wait until May for the Audio ><

I second Sete, better wait. At least you'll have to wait for Final battle for 2 month less.

And you will crave to see how it ends.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Read the spoilers then buy the book

 

The enjoyment (for me) isn’t the ending but the journey getting there. Spoilers have never been an issue of mine

[Indefragable]

When it comes to spoilers...if it’s a book I know I am going to read at some point, I lay off to preserve my own take. If it’s something I am on the fence about, I read them to see if it increases or decreases my interest.

[DarkChaplain]

I personally really don’t like the direction now that Russ was supposedly on Terra and then left. I always liked the old lore that was the Lion and the Wolf were making all possible speed for Terra, and that scared Horus to death enough that he lowered his shields to make the Emperor come to him.

 

I mean, didnt Russ/everyone on Terra know Horus was coming for them there??? Why the heck did he leave his brothers and the most well defended fortress in the galaxy?

 

Just smacks of changing well established and interesting lore for the purposes of making a book with Horus vs Russ on the cover...

 

That entire thing is explained in Wolfsbane and even in Vengeful Spirit. Russ wants to be out there, fighting instead of waiting and potentially prevent Horus from reaching Terra in the first place. His Legion isn't one for defensive fights behind walls.

 

Besides, Leman Russ: The Great Wolf also basically ends with Russ and the Lion arriving on Terra, just having found out about the endgame of the Siege, and it breaks them. Russ has the added baggage of having left once, not just not being fast enough. He was arrogant enough to believe he could've done enough to blunt Horus, and as a result failed his father. That's a harder pill to swallow.

[Marshal Loss]

I guess they could have it that Sanguinius manages to not "open a chink in the armour", but manages to destroy Worldbreaker, or hamstrings him or something like that.

 

Worldbreaker is still intact and used by the Horus-clone in the Talon of Horus (not to mention all the art of him fighting the Emperor while he still has both his weapons), so I don't think that's particularly viable.

[Roomsky]

I personally really don’t like the direction now that Russ was supposedly on Terra and then left. I always liked the old lore that was the Lion and the Wolf were making all possible speed for Terra, and that scared Horus to death enough that he lowered his shields to make the Emperor come to him.

 

I mean, didnt Russ/everyone on Terra know Horus was coming for them there??? Why the heck did he leave his brothers and the most well defended fortress in the galaxy?

 

Just smacks of changing well established and interesting lore for the purposes of making a book with Horus vs Russ on the cover...

 

Horus was scared of the Ultras, n`est-ce pas?

 

As DC mentioned, Russ being back on Terra was established as far back as Vengeful Spirit, and Primarchs leaving Terra to take the fight to Horus was around as far as Deliverance Lost. On top of that, the "they made all speed for Terra, but were too late" line doesn't work anymore now that the war lasts 7 years. It only worked when Horus' timeline went Leaving Isstvaan V -> Terra, which is of course no longer the case.

 

I've no particular allegiance to the old lore for the series (and "old lore" is about as ill-defined as possible, considering the new changes every edition), the codex entries worked best for codices, and much of the series works best for a series of novels. 

 

On the topic of Sanguinius v Horus, Sangy cracking Horus' armor is only a recent addition in the grand scheme anyway, and frankly I've never liked it. I prefer the older interaction of:

 

"Join me Sanguinius."

"No."

http://pm1.narvii.com/6541/8131248485efcf8f5a3654464616f5fca2b53e6b_hq.jpg

 

Now, of course I'm not immediately on board for Russ damaging Horus either, but as DC is fond of pointing out, I should wait to actually read the book for proper context. And so I shall, and I remain stoked for this release, if for nothing else more Guy Haley Sons of Horus.

[AceofAllTradez]

I guess they could have it that Sanguinius manages to not "open a chink in the armour", but manages to destroy Worldbreaker, or hamstrings him or something like that. Russ stabs Horus? Cool story bro, now let Sanguinius show you how you cripple the Arch-Traitor.

 

And that's after breaking the back of a Bloodthirster across his knee, because while Ferrus Manus may have silver hands, Sanguinius is entirely made of pure METAL!

No one truly cripples the arch-traitor other than The Master of Mankind himself. Not Sanguinius not Russ.

[Guest]

 

I guess they could have it that Sanguinius manages to not "open a chink in the armour", but manages to destroy Worldbreaker, or hamstrings him or something like that. Russ stabs Horus? Cool story bro, now let Sanguinius show you how you cripple the Arch-Traitor.

 

And that's after breaking the back of a Bloodthirster across his knee, because while Ferrus Manus may have silver hands, Sanguinius is entirely made of pure METAL!

 

No one truly cripples the arch-traitor other than The Master of Mankind himself. Not Sanguinius not Russ.

He's just fanboying, thinking his Primarch is better than all others, is all.

 

Sangy and Russ were both near the top as melee monsters, but Russ had the spear the Emperor gave him something Sangy didn't have. So Russ has a step up on Sangy. We have been told repeatedly that the story is being changed and to expect that change.

[bluntblade]

Are people seriously supposing that Horus won't have a hole in his armour repaired in the time before the Siege, let alone its end?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

I guess they could have it that Sanguinius manages to not "open a chink in the armour", but manages to destroy Worldbreaker, or hamstrings him or something like that. Russ stabs Horus? Cool story bro, now let Sanguinius show you how you cripple the Arch-Traitor.

 

And that's after breaking the back of a Bloodthirster across his knee, because while Ferrus Manus may have silver hands, Sanguinius is entirely made of pure METAL!

No one truly cripples the arch-traitor other than The Master of Mankind himself. Not Sanguinius not Russ.

 

 

Which, as the canon stands, would not have been possible without the fight with Sanguinius. I may be fan-boying a bit, but to be honest, Sanguinius is actually middle-of-the-pack for my favourite Primarchs. They're all pretty awesome.

Sure, they've said the canon will be changing, but as the responses in this thread show, if they remove Sanguinius' role on Horus' flagship, to have given it to Russ now, without having Sanguinius do anything else awesome to make up for it, the fanbase reaction is not exactly going to be positive.

[DarkChaplain]

Sure, I'm fully on board with people being upset over Sanguinius' role being neutered and handed off to others. However, we have not seen that happen yet. The final confrontation may be years out just yet at the current publishing schedule and statements about the Siege being tackled from all angles of the wider scope and not just rushing to the Vengeful Spirit. We still have the entire Siege left for Sanguinius, for plot developments, for adding context to these things.

 

Sanguinius won't be left out in the cold. His role may change somewhat, or it may not, we don't know as of yet. The editors and authors involved probably do and are preparing years in advance. Any hole that may open up in the long run will invariably be filled with something else that will hopefully fit more smoothly into the ongoing narrative.

 

And this isn't the first time something about the final showdown changed throughout the series, and even before then. Ollanius the Pious became a Perpetual from being a mere guardsman in old fluff. Instead of sacrificing his life for the Emperor he loved and worshipped as a god, he disdains him and his role, clinging on to some remnant of old christianity.

 

There is so much of the Heresy still left to be told and spun over the coming years, over the course of the Siege of Terra, that there's really no point crying over it just yet, because as of now, all we have is a twist and resulting assumptions.

 

 

Also, since I'm still mad over Star Wars under Disney, I wouldn't compare Wolfsbane to The Last Jedi by any means. Wolfsbane doesn't try its hardest to subvert expectations. If anything, it answers a lot of questions, characterizes Russ extremely well and ties some things together. I haven't read the thing yet, but from the spoilers I am hugely excited to dig in and get all the info out of it. Russ and the Wolves have received basically pure praise so far for how they are showcased.

The Last Jedi, damn that movie, took the wind out of the sails of a lot of mysteries, classic characters and blatantly told the audience that all that has come before needs to be wiped clean, all while adding stupid preachy sideplots about capitalism and animal abuse while having the heroes achieve nothing of value. It told the audience that things they cared about were utterly irrelevant and they were stupid for getting excited about seeing more of the big bad, finding out more about the cast and that the characters they've grown up with did jack all of value and existed just to be killed off.

 

I don't see the same with Wolfsbane. It adds and moves things around, but it doesn't actually take away. It looks to me like it plays on the very character traits and flaws we've known about all along and adds more context to them, both by explaining them from a different angle and by making them relevant in the ongoing narrative instead of having the Wolves be out of the picture entirely since Alaxxes.

 

Heck, can you imagine the uproar on this very forum had BL instead not done anything with the Wolves anymore for the rest of the series? Or, maybe worse, added a book about them attacking random traitor worlds or fleets far off from the Sol system, which would inevitably be declared as filler and had people complain about the series never reaching Terra? Which, I might add, people still do across the web, mostly those who haven't touched a novel since Battle for the Abyss or thereabouts....

[grand_master85]

I always felt that Sanguinius' contribution wasn't creating a small chink of armour within Horus' armour for the Emperor to exploit. It was to show no matter how easy it was to acquiesce and fall to corruption and darkness that he stood strong to his ideals and his loyalty regardless of the fact he knew from his visions it would be his end. The Emperor seeing the body of Sanguinius was the push he needed to realise that Horus was truly irredeemable.

Also, if anyone thinks that Horus wouldn’t have had his armour repaired between this battle and the Siege? Well....

Here’s my thoughts with a couple of quotes from the tail end of the book:

With regards to Russ, I don't feel he is stepping on the BA's toes here with regards to old fluff. The spear itself seems to be of another function, being of the Emperor's own design. When Russ wounds Horus, it sort of temporarily splits his soul. For a brief moment, Russ sees his brother as he was, though this is quickly cast aside. However, this doesn't kill Horus. The Wolves see this as a failure of Russ in his task, but he sees otherwise, and I'm paraphrasing here;

"'Then all was for nought', said Bjorn.

'No, no it wasn't', Russ smiled. 'The spear tasted his soul, and I spoke with him. I spoke with him.'

'With who? With the traitor?'

'Not with the traitor. Not with him. I spoke...I spoke with my brother.'

There's a bit riiiight at the end of the book where Abaddon is addressing Horus, and Horus falters briefly. He sees a vision of himself, the loyal son, the favoured of the Emperor, on a huge battle field, fighting off an endless horde of daemons. This other Horus faces skyward and shouts something to him he can't hear.

"His face was twisted with anguish and hatred, and a tremor ran through the Warmaster's soul at the sight of this other self. So many deaths, he seemed to be saying, so much betrayal, so many oaths broken.

'So much blood', Horus whispered.

Abaddon stopped his gloating. 'My lord?'

Horus came back to himself suddenly. His eyes opened. Sweat trickled down into his eyes. he felt nauseous. Weakness he could never show, and he hid it deep within himself."

I guess it reminds me of that bit in 300 where Leonidas states 'even a God-king can bleed'. This seems enough to create a small glimmer of doubt within Horus. How this plays out for the rest of the Heresy and the Siege of Terra, I'm not sure. But even though his Sons don't see it, there is that weakness now nonetheless. Maybe it will come into play during his battle with the Emperor, when he sees the error of his ways and asks the Emperor to strike him down, lest he be taken again. I thought it was an interesting development anyways.

All I’ll say is, give Wolfsbane a chance; read it and all the comments from m_r_parler will be given context. IMO it’s a fine addition to the series, and it does a lot of good for the Vlka Fenryka.

[Indefragable]

@grand_master85

 

I agree as always that we won’t know the full story until the full story (completion of HH series) is upon us...

 

...however, you can definitely see just how distressing such potential changes can be.

 

I think many of use saw Sanguinius vs Horus as Luke vs Vader at the end of ROTJ: decent action, but also “I see the conflict in you” dialogue (but of course “Vader” wins in a grimdark setting...). So if Russ vs Horus was to be Obi-Wan vs Vader in A New Hope, then that’s fine since it’s a very different fight/setup. This sounds like it is/going to be 2x ROTJ-ending style fights which is what does not make sense*.

 

 

*as we do not yet have the rest of the series written/read

[nagashnee]

 

All I’ll say is, give Wolfsbane a chance; read it and all the comments from m_r_parler will be given context. IMO it’s a fine addition to the series, and it does a lot of good for the Vlka Fenryka.

 

I vehemently disagree with this line of thinking, early reviews, peer opinion, word of mouth, etc exists so i can spend my money in the way which i believe will maximise my enjoyment, once BL has my money its far too late to say oh this was a bad book. The HH series in particular is already guilty enough of bad/filler/miss marketed materials to not warrant blind faith. 

 

This is not a free new sample with which to approach with a open mind, this is book 49 of series which has burned quite a few bridges with fans already. From a company trying to get me to buy books in several settings/timelines. 

 

Wolfsbane got it chance with early reviews ( note i am not judging it simply by statements on this site), and everything i have read so far tells me to borrow it of friends who still buy every single thing BL sticks the words Horus Heresy on. If proven wrong ( which i fully admit i might be) it can then be bought and join the books of the series which warrant it.

[Marshal Loss]

SPOILER

 

Please do this in future

 

 

[spoiler]Spoiler here[/spoiler]

[Scribe]

DarkChaplain, I would have been MORE than happy for Legions who had not been a major part of the Heresy a certain points canonically to not be soaking up ink.

 

Wolves.

Sons.

'Shattered' Legions, who probably got more ink than everyone....

 

Yeah, after Prospero, when the Wolves and Sons should have been broken (the point of it if we remember) I wouldn't need another Wolf book.

[Fang_Guard23]

I always felt that Sanguinius' contribution wasn't creating a small chink of armour within Horus' armour for the Emperor to exploit. It was to show no matter how easy it was to acquiesce and fall to corruption and darkness that he stood strong to his ideals and his loyalty regardless of the fact he knew from his visions it would be his end. The Emperor seeing the body of Sanguinius was the push he needed to realise that Horus was truly irredeemable.

 

Also, if anyone thinks that Horus wouldn’t have had his armour repaired between this battle and the Siege? Well....

 

Here’s my thoughts with a couple of quotes from the tail end of the book:

 

 

With regards to Russ, I don't feel he is stepping on the BA's toes here with regards to old fluff. The spear itself seems to be of another function, being of the Emperor's own design. When Russ wounds Horus, it sort of temporarily splits his soul. For a brief moment, Russ sees his brother as he was, though this is quickly cast aside. However, this doesn't kill Horus. The Wolves see this as a failure of Russ in his task, but he sees otherwise, and I'm paraphrasing here;

 

"'Then all was for nought', said Bjorn.

 

'No, no it wasn't', Russ smiled. 'The spear tasted his soul, and I spoke with him. I spoke with him.'

 

'With who? With the traitor?'

 

'Not with the traitor. Not with him. I spoke...I spoke with my brother.'

 

There's a bit riiiight at the end of the book where Abaddon is addressing Horus, and Horus falters briefly. He sees a vision of himself, the loyal son, the favoured of the Emperor, on a huge battle field, fighting off an endless horde of daemons. This other Horus faces skyward and shouts something to him he can't hear.

 

"His face was twisted with anguish and hatred, and a tremor ran through the Warmaster's soul at the sight of this other self. So many deaths, he seemed to be saying, so much betrayal, so many oaths broken.

 

'So much blood', Horus whispered.

 

Abaddon stopped his gloating. 'My lord?'

 

Horus came back to himself suddenly. His eyes opened. Sweat trickled down into his eyes. he felt nauseous. Weakness he could never show, and he hid it deep within himself."

 

I guess it reminds me of that bit in 300 where Leonidas states 'even a God-king can bleed'. This seems enough to create a small glimmer of doubt within Horus. How this plays out for the rest of the Heresy and the Siege of Terra, I'm not sure. But even though his Sons don't see it, there is that weakness now nonetheless. Maybe it will come into play during his battle with the Emperor, when he sees the error of his ways and asks the Emperor to strike him down, lest he be taken again. I thought it was an interesting development anyways.

 

 

All I’ll say is, give Wolfsbane a chance; read it and all the comments from m_r_parler will be given context. IMO it’s a fine addition to the series, and it does a lot of good for the Vlka Fenryka.

This kind of makes us understand why so many of the traitor legions and their primarchs dispise Horus, especially Abaddon.

[Ascanius]

Primaris plot holes

 

"Plot hole" isn't shorthand for "thing I didn't like".

[b1soul]

So this sounds like the cause of Russ' coma in Weregeld . . .

 

has yet to be revealed?