HH 49: Wolfsbane

[mc warhammer]

“word of mouth” has changed significantly post internet days...

[Fang_Guard23]

So this sounds like the cause of Russ' coma in Weregeld . . .

 

has yet to be revealed?

They're likely going to do a short story to explain how Russ ended up in that coma.

[Guest]

 

Primaris plot holes

 

"Plot hole" isn't shorthand for "thing I didn't like".

Plot holes as in "how did Cawl get Fenrisians initiates?" "Why did Cawl not help the numerous other times. If he was waiting for Roboute was he just going to stand by durin an imperium ending event?" "Can normal Marines be upgraded to Primaris or not?

[m_r_parker]

I’ll be the first t admit, I don’t like giving too much away when I do reviews of things that haven’t officially released. I don’t think it’s fair for those of us with early access to ruin all the good bits and surprises for everyone else who hasn’t got the opportunity to buy it. Nor do I think it fair on the author to see that happen to their work. In my eye there still needs to be something left so then when people do get to read it there are still surprises. Which is why I’ve left the greater part of the middle of the novel undiscussed on the forum.

 

As for the ending, well others have touched upon it and a lot are speculating, so I’ll throw in my 2 pennies...

 

I initially didn’t read it that Russ was taking the place of Sanguinius at the Siege. Even by the final chapter of the novel Horus’ physical wounds had healed, and no doubt his armour will be repaired en-route to Beta Garmon. The damage Russ has done is to make Horus remember who he was prior to Davin, and see what has truly happened to him. At first I thought this was a greater revelation that Horus had been possessed Fulgrim-style, and that the true Horus was being kept at bay by the Daemon now inhabiting his body. But it’s not that, even if it does read like that. It does set up the final battle between Horus and the Emperor, and if I’m predicting this as it’s going to be written, mirrors more the Lion and Luther at Calliban’s end.

Sanguinius will still have his day, where he denies the temptations of Horus, puts a chunk in his armour that the Emperor can exploit, and be murdered to give the Emperor resolution enough that Horus has gone too far to be redeemed. I can also see that the battle will eventually swing towards Horus having the upper hand, but the revelation that Gungnir has wrought upon him will once again show it’s face and force Horus to see what he’s about to do. In that instant Horus will be unable to kill the Emperor, and the Emperor will take that instant to end the Heresy by obliterating Horus totally. Now that I’m writing it, the Emperor destroying Horus so utterly feels like a mercy kill, as the spirit / soul of Horus wouldn’t enter the warp where the Chaos gods can inflict eternal punishment for failure. Hmmm

This all parallels the battle between Lion and Luther, where Luther has the influence of Chaos removes from him and he sees what he is about to do and can’t, and the Lion uses that opportunity. Chaos denied yet again.

 

But there’s are just my thoughts on such things, and shouldn’t be read as anything more than that.

[mactire]

I'm wondering now if they do away with the "guardsman" that Horus kills that convinces the Emperor to erase him. What if Sangy actually curbstomps, a now mentally weakened, Horus, who then kills him with Demonic powers, thus making the Emperor destroy him with his own physic powers. This would make Sangiunus death worthy and also keep the BA fans happy, as he would then surely be the No1. melee monster he is hinted at being.

[Guest Triszin]

I'm wondering now if they do away with the "guardsman" that Horus kills that convinces the Emperor to erase him. What if Sangy actually curbstomps, a now mentally weakened, Horus, who then kills him with Demonic powers, thus making the Emperor destroy him with his own physic powers. This would make Sangiunus death worthy and also keep the BA fans happy, as he would then surely be the No1. melee monster he is hinted at being.

were all wrong, for when Horus broke the angel, and his father lay in disbelief unable to act. A simple human, charges Horus and kills him.

[karden00]

It’s not a simple human. Ollanius Pius was pet of the Militarum (or would it be more correct to say Ultramar Auxilia?)

But he is a perpetual that has some small repor with the Big E.

we’ve known since KNF that this aspect of the story will indeed be played out.

[bluntblade]

I wonder if Cawl will be involved in the Wolf Brothers disaster

[Brother Captain Kezef]

 

Upon closer inspection, they really screwed up Russ's face....

 

But I'm quite interested to see how the novel turns out, and I'm genuinely hopeful that Russ will get a good showing.

 

 

How about this from the internal artwork, something a little different...

 

 

 

So now we know what happened to Russ! He joined a metal band and sings power ballads

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

 

Upon closer inspection, they really screwed up Russ's face....

 

But I'm quite interested to see how the novel turns out, and I'm genuinely hopeful that Russ will get a good showing.

 

 

How about this from the internal artwork, something a little different...

 

 

 

So now we know what happened to Russ! He joined a metal band and sings power ballads

 

 

I'd buy that album

[b1soul]

November Rain on Fenris

[Scribe]

It’s not a simple human. Ollanius Pius was pet of the Militarum (or would it be more correct to say Ultramar Auxilia?)

But he is a perpetual that has some small repor with the Big E.

we’ve known since KNF that this aspect of the story will indeed be played out.

Dan ruined that arc too. There is honestly little that I like of his in the HH...

[Ascanius]

 

Plot holes as in "how did Cawl get Fenrisians initiates?" "Why did Cawl not help the numerous other times. If he was waiting for Roboute was he just going to stand by durin an imperium ending event?" "Can normal Marines be upgraded to Primaris or not?

 

1) I don't really understand why this is a question. While it's true that the Space Wolves chapter is idiosyncratic and largely isolated from the rest of the Imperium, they're not entirely separatist. Iron Priests still travel to Mars for initiation into the tech-mysteries of the Omnissiah, for instance, so it's not crazy talk to suggest that they and the Wolf Priests would also cooperate with the Primaris project. Russ didn't want to turn his Legion into a chapter initially, but he agreed in the end. It's not difficult to imagine that he would also have agreed to release some of his chapter's candidates to Cawl's project, even if it was only a one-time thing.

 

2a) He was following explicit orders - and Guilliman's detail-oriented enough to word it specifically enough to give Cawl no room to use his own judgement, if that's what he intended.

 

2b) It's also specifically mentioned that Cawl's mind has been fragmented and restored from backup and partitioned off many, many times over the past 10,000 years, so he may have deliberately encrypted all information related to the Primaris project with a trigger that wouldn't activate until Guilliman returned. It may even have been in Guilliman's orders that he do so.

 

3) That's not a plot hole, it's just an open question. They mentioned it was possible on a livestream that I watched back when 8th Edition was happening, but the Twitch archive doesn't go back that far.

 

A plot hole is something like, "If people in The Matrix need an operator to jack them in, monitor their presence, and set up an exit for them, how does Cypher get in and out for his restaurant meeting with Agent Smith without anyone knowing about it?" It's a gap in the course of events that can't easily be explained.

 

(The Wachowskis say the scene where Neo finds him working on the computers alone is when Cypher's setting up an automated system to give him an exit, but obviously it's not clear from any other part of the movie that this is even possible.)

[nagashnee]

 

1)  Russ didn't want to turn his Legion into a chapter initially, but he agreed in the end. 

 

 

Umm, when did this happen? To my knowledge space wolves have never followed the codex, nor have they kept to legal levels ( be it marines or fleets) as set out by the chapter system? They were just never able to reach crusade level ( on the ground at least) again for numerous good reasons. 

[Jareddm]

 

 

1)  Russ didn't want to turn his Legion into a chapter initially, but he agreed in the end. 

 

 

Umm, when did this happen? To my knowledge space wolves have never followed the codex, nor have they kept to legal levels ( be it marines or fleets) as set out by the chapter system? They were just never able to reach crusade level ( on the ground at least) again for numerous good reasons. 

 

The (short) existence of the Wolf Brothers chapter?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

1)  Russ didn't want to turn his Legion into a chapter initially, but he agreed in the end. 

 

 

Umm, when did this happen? To my knowledge space wolves have never followed the codex, nor have they kept to legal levels ( be it marines or fleets) as set out by the chapter system? They were just never able to reach crusade level ( on the ground at least) again for numerous good reasons. 

 

 

The fact that it's officially designated as a Chapter, at least, rather than being called a Legion? :p

 

Russ followed the Codex in that he roughly acknowledges its existence, and he agrees not to become a full Legion anymore, so in that regard they're "Chapters", but that's really about it.

[Kelborn]

 

 

 

 

1) Russ didn't want to turn his Legion into a chapter initially, but he agreed in the end.

 

Umm, when did this happen? To my knowledge space wolves have never followed the codex, nor have they kept to legal levels ( be it marines or fleets) as set out by the chapter system? They were just never able to reach crusade level ( on the ground at least) again for numerous good reasons.

Have a look on the Codex Astartes fluff.

 

Half of the Primarchs welcomed it, the other half didn't. In the end, they all agreed on it to a certain degree.

 

Sallies are not entirely adherent, as well.

[Guest]

As much as I would like to discuss Primaris Marines this isn't the right place.

 

Is there any other discussion about the book? Seems like most of us drew our own conclusion and are stuck to it. I am sure Sanguinius is going to get his fair share of being the focus, but I see nothing wrong with another Primarch able to hurt a Horus. If a SM can hurt a Daemon Primarch then a Primarch can hurt Horus. Having Russ being a small part leading up to Sangy vs Horus and eventually Emperor killing Horus seems alright.

 

I am waiting for the book to see why Russ left. He knew he couldn't defeat Horus, so why go? Was Russ being dumb, was it a means to something else. Also what does the were wolf dining room mean.

[Ascanius]

Yes, other people have it right; my point is that Russ agreed to the idea of chapters in the end, and although the Space Wolves are not Codex-compliant they're also not trying to be a Legion anymore.

[Moonreaper666]

The beginning of Corax leaves things purposefully vague, but it's very explicit in the description of Russ's wounds... he's a total mess so it's highly likely that he's been mentally assaulted as badly as he has been physically.

 

In terms of who and how... for me it has to be Horus and only Horus.

 

We've seen a Primarch vs demon boosted Astartes, Corax made short work of Lorgar's Gal Vorbak pigs in The First Heretic.

We've seen a Primarch vs massed Astartes infantry & Armor, see Vulkan bulldozing through 400+ Iron Warriors and throwing tanks left, right & centre in Vulkan Lives.

We've seen a Primarch unarmed & un-armoured vs a surprise assassination attempt from the Alpha Legion, all dead in seconds, see Guilliman in The Unremembered Empire.

 

Personally i think there's virtually no non Primarch warrior in The Heresy that can remotely challenge another Primarch and survive.

 

If Sigismund drew swords with Fulgrim, he's dead.

If Abaddon drew swords with Alpharius (see magical Deliverence Lost scene!) he's dead.

If Khârn drew swords with Jaghatai he's dead.

If Lucius drew swords with Perturabo he's dead.

If Sharrowkyn drew swords with Curze he's dead.

 

All very simples to me. Obviously time will tell, but needless to say i think we're all looking forward to seeing how this one turns out!!

Hello! You all forgot about Kor Phaeron vs Guilliman!?!

 

A bunch of Alpha Legionnaires managed to defeat Grandpa Smurf!

 

Daemons and Titans can also defeat Primarchs as well!

[Ascanius]

 

Hello! You all forgot about Kor Phaeron vs Guilliman!?!

 

A bunch of Alpha Legionnaires managed to defeat Grandpa Smurf!

 

Daemons and Titans can also defeat Primarchs as well!

 

1) Warp Juice, but also Kor Phaeron lost because he's an idiot.

 

2) Uh, he killed the out of them even though they ambushed him out of armour?

 

3) Remains to be seen.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

The beginning of Corax leaves things purposefully vague, but it's very explicit in the description of Russ's wounds... he's a total mess so it's highly likely that he's been mentally assaulted as badly as he has been physically.

 

In terms of who and how... for me it has to be Horus and only Horus.

 

We've seen a Primarch vs demon boosted Astartes, Corax made short work of Lorgar's Gal Vorbak pigs in The First Heretic.

We've seen a Primarch vs massed Astartes infantry & Armor, see Vulkan bulldozing through 400+ Iron Warriors and throwing tanks left, right & centre in Vulkan Lives.

We've seen a Primarch unarmed & un-armoured vs a surprise assassination attempt from the Alpha Legion, all dead in seconds, see Guilliman in The Unremembered Empire.

 

Personally i think there's virtually no non Primarch warrior in The Heresy that can remotely challenge another Primarch and survive.

 

If Sigismund drew swords with Fulgrim, he's dead.

If Abaddon drew swords with Alpharius (see magical Deliverence Lost scene!) he's dead.

If Khârn drew swords with Jaghatai he's dead.

If Lucius drew swords with Perturabo he's dead.

If Sharrowkyn drew swords with Curze he's dead.

 

All very simples to me. Obviously time will tell, but needless to say i think we're all looking forward to seeing how this one turns out!!

Hello! You all forgot about Kor Phaeron vs Guilliman!?!

 

A bunch of Alpha Legionnaires managed to defeat Grandpa Smurf!

 

Daemons and Titans can also defeat Primarchs as well!

 

 

Uh, not sure what book you read, but Guilliman manages to kill the Alpha Legion assassins? Also, nobody has ever argued that Titans shouldn't be able to defeat them? Also, the Alpha Legion scene is directly mentioned in the post you quoted?

Moonreaper, I know you like Chaos, but come on. It's pretty hard to argue that every time we've seen an armed and armoured Primarch in battle, a basic Astartes doesn't stand any chance, no matter how good they might be.

[MrDarth151]

 

Moonreaper, I know you like Chaos, but come on. It's pretty hard to argue that every time we've seen an armed and armoured Primarch in battle, a basic Astartes doesn't stand any chance, no matter how good they might be.

 

 

Which unfortunately kinda undermines the point Betrayer was trying to make...

 

 

I am waiting for the book to see why Russ left. He knew he couldn't defeat Horus, so why go? Was Russ being dumb, was it a means to something else. Also what does the were wolf dining room mean.

 

Doylist explanation would be that someone bizzarely decided that Russ should retreat to Terra, rather than Fenris after Alpha Legion kicked his legion in the nuts, even though it makes little sense, so he needed to go away so they didn't have to retcon the fact that only three legions were at Terra.

 

I don't expect the choice to make sense from military point of view. Black Library is kinda bad when it comes to that.

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

 

Moonreaper, I know you like Chaos, but come on. It's pretty hard to argue that every time we've seen an armed and armoured Primarch in battle, a basic Astartes doesn't stand any chance, no matter how good they might be.

 

 

Which unfortunately kinda undermines the point Betrayer was trying to make...

 

No, I didn't say Primarchs couldn't get killed by Astartes at all. I said a Primarch in a duel with an Astartes is never going to end well for the Astartes. A Primarch can most certainly be taken down by weight of fire, we know this from Guilliman almost getting killed by the assassins, from Vulkan being captured on Istvaan, and, as you say, from Betrayer.

 

Also, in regards to Russ retreating to Terra rather than Fenris, it does make more sense to go to Terra. After all, Horus isn't going after Fenris, and Terra is where the Space Wolf Legion was initially founded, so they've got enough genestock there to create at least a few recruits.

[b1soul]

@JH79

 

I think Astartes in sufficient numbers and with powerful weaponry could maim or kill a primarch.

 

1 on 1, no lone Astartes will pose a credible threat to a primarch...unless the primarch slips on a banana peel and stabs himself through the brain. Based on the FW rules, Sigismund would struggle against a custodes tribune, never mind a primarch.

 

However, Sigismund with 500 veterans would be a problem if they envelope a primarch cut off from his men.