Kelborn Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 The Horus clone does count as a Primarch, right? He was killed by "regular" Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5009778 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 i’d say abaddon is an exceptional astartes. as exceptional as they come Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5009785 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Still...piss-poor showing for a primarch, but the Horus clone was probably lacking somehow Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5009803 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Still...piss-poor showing for a primarch, "and that is when we started to die" was it though? we don't know what mental state horus II was in, but with his faded memories, it's reasonable to assume he wasn't in full control of his faculties. even so, he slaughtered his way through the proto black legion ranks, causing them to break. magazine after magazine was emptied into him, khayon threw all his magic at the clone and he was still too strong. faster than nefertari. more powerful than gyre. everything indicated they would have been wiped out if not for abaddon. and then horus II was killed by his own weapon in a moment of vulnerability. he was practically about to give abs a hug, it was a sucker punch of sorts. in any case, there should be some level of vulnerability to the primarchs, otherwise a handful of astartes would never have believed they could trap and restrain fulgrim in the relfection crack'd. but the Horus clone was probably lacking somehow that's pretty common conjecture on the interwebs...but there's no real proof of it afaik i mean, maybe? but the descriptions i've heard of fulgrim II indicate he was everything pre heresy fulgrim was. enchanting. its why the III legion are so drawn to him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5009901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 I'd hardly say that. The clone went up against Justaerin, Rubricae, a powerful sorcerer, his daemon, a Dark Eldar thingy, a couple of WE Devastators and more, and showed little sign of flagging before Abaddon ended it. And that end was delivered with a uniquely deadly power claw in the gut and three storm bolter volleys into the wound. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5009902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 About the Horus clone being inferior...yes, we don't know for sure either way. But the original Horus was created by the Emperor. The clone was created by Fabius. It's not easy to replicate the Emperor's work without flaw. That's why the idea that the clone was inferior has weight Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProsperoStands Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 The Horus clone lacked one crucial thing, the soul. Horus II was not the same as Horus the first due to the simple fact that he was lacking the soul of the original Horus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefragable Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Must resist commenting on "how many Astartes does it take to screw in a lightbulb kill a Primarch.... Must resist commenting on how to kill a Primarch... Must resist commenting... Must resist... Resistance is futile. So... A couple thoughts on this matter: -watch packs A squad or two (so like…20x Astartes max) of Space Wolves were sent to watch each Primarch for any signs of trouble around the time of Prospero. Whether they were actually meant to ever harm a single hair on the Primarchs heads or were more symbolic is debatable, but there is something to think about. -Alpha Legion attempt on Guilliman As others have noted, this happened in Unremembered Empire. Again, whether this was like a 0.000001% chance of success or a 20% chance of success is open for interpretation, but the fact that it happened….and Guilliman had to recover from it (put on lite duty more than bed-ridden coma or anything) at all shows that it’s within the realm of possibility for x # of Astartes to kill a Primarch. -Night of the Wolf In that flashback from Betrayer Angron beats Russ 1-1, but is surrounded by Space Wolves ready to blow him away should Russ give the order (or get dead). We don’t have exact figures, but the very nature of it again suggests that it’s within the realm of possibility. -Aircraft vs Primarchs In Vengeful Spirit, a couple of Legion air assets (Fire Raptors or Stormbirds, can’t remember) manage to ambush Horus and Mortarion and open up on them (how do you hide Fire Raptors in the middle of an occupied city? CREEEEEEED Meduson is one of the coolest characters in the HH series, that’s how) with all their dakka. Both Horus and even the mighty Mortarion limp around for a period time as they recover -Titans vs Primarchs --Again in Betrayer , Angron is stepped up by a Warhound (Reiver? Can’t remember the class) Titan and survives (and in fact pushes the foot back!), while Lorgar gets hit head-on by a Titan-grade macro-plasma cannon, but manages to get some level of kine shield off just in time. Both Angron and Lorgar have to recover from their wounds (including Lorgar’s face being melted off), but “recover” is entirely subjective based on their personalities --in one of the Forgeworld books (someone else will have to cite the exact one), Sanguinius rips the head off an Eldar psy-Titan, but is hit by the psychic assault of another one and needs time to recover as the blow “would have felled any other creature.” So there we have some examples of what it takes to hurt a Primarch with something other than another Primarch. Someone more interested than I can certainly find some baselines and compare the damage stats of a Titan macro plasma to the humble boltgun and extrapolate how many shots it would take to fell a Primarch. TL; DR: I think the comparative stats from Forgeworld for each Primarch are probably actually decent guidelines to just how strong a Primarch is. They can still be felled by bolters, but it will take x number of them actually hitting/wounding/going through armor and FNP etc… Likewise, just as Astartes are to mortal humans, so are Primarchs to Astartes: they are a step up in every way, but not invincible. Yes Astartes are bigger/stronger/faster than normal humans, but where a lot of their true upgrades come from are in terms of endurance and recovery capabilities. An Astartes clots way faster and repairs tissue way faster and requires less sleep than a normal human. Does that mean a bullet will bounce off an Astartes skull? Realistically, no, but it means that an Astartes will heal from said bullet way faster than a normal human (provided the point-of-no-return damage to the brain has not been caused). Take that same concept and magnify by Primarch scale. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010176 Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Wow, this really deviated from topic... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 That always happens with pre-release books, from my experience. Heck, folks can write dozens of pages over books that aren't written yet, or were only just pitched as a thing that exists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Indeed. This topic can be returned to once the book is out. Accordingly, expect less leeway here in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/344025-hh-49-wolfsbane/page/9/#findComment-5010217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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