Upside down bolter on the grey hunter upgrade pack 2

[Spinsanity]

While I can understand the dislike, it's not like all they did was flip the CAD design upside down.

Look at the Grey Slayers' guns: FW's closeup
And at the "original" Phobos pattern bolters: FW's closeup
Or even the plastic Phobos pattern bolters: GW's closeup

There's a peg on each of the sights, but they are not aligned on the two models (on the GS guns, the peg is closer to the tip of the sight)
The barrels are clearly not one and the same either (it's one long cylinder on the GS gun, whereas there's an indent on the Phobos)

Sure, they are very similar, but no, they're not identical. It WAS designed that way from the ground up. Was it a good idea? Considering the #InternetConsensus represents every single gamers' POV , apparently not...

[1ncarnadine]

They didn't "just" flip a muzzle upside down. Has anyone closely compared it to the Phobos pistol and boltgun? The new Wolf boltgun looks similar, but none of the details or proportions match entirely to the Phobos weapons. The whole thing was either designed from scratch or very significantly altered. 

 

edit: Spinsanity beat me to it above^

Edited February 7, 2018 by LetsYouDown

[Huggtand]

No one have said that they are identical to the Phobos. I can see that they have tweaked the design a little bit (significantly altered is a bit much). But  it's still the design elements of a bolter, iron sight, bayonet lug upside down

 

 

 

I just think it looks goofy to have the front of a bolter flipped 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Huggtand

[Marshal Rohr]

It was designed from scratch. It was an intentional choice. People claiming otherwise have no evidence or way to prove that this was a mistake and forge World themselves have said it was intentional.

[ephrael]

It looks like a combination grip/integral laser sight to me. I kind of like them.

[Jackalwolf]

I know personally and like most guys in the studio, and I’m quite the fanboy, but really can’t spin myself to be positive. I truly hope the sculptor hasn’t quit cause he had good ideas and what I want to reiterate is:

 

- Part as a base SW have one of the more rabid fan bases

- Make them wait for 4 years from the point in which they expected their release

- Release outstanding miniatures for all other legions

- Don’t put your best team on it or at least put a vet sculptor to oversee closely the project

- Showcase 7 months before release some miniatures that rise questions about their quality

- Do nothing and put them for sale 7 months later (praetor withdrawal excluded)

 

This has nothing to do with the sculptor and it’s just poor management. I would never put anyone but the best member of my team in such a hot seat and even then he’d have all my support.

 

The SW release has shown that FW is spread too thin with specialist games and 40k requiring more time of their top sculptors. Growing pains of a company growing from small to medium.

 

What’s unquestionable is this release was sub par with the HH standard. There were obvious mistakes unseen in any other release, questionable design choices and fur plenty of hobbyists (myself included) can do better with green stuff.

 

What I want to avoid is blaming the sculptor, he’s got talent and if he had someone behind him paying attention and bouncing back ideas from could have done an amazing job. FW answer to the inverted bolters mail ‘it was a designer choce’ really seems to point to a very siloed way of working where one individual has almost full control on a whole product line. That’s poor team setup, even the best can’t do it alone and need feedback.

 

Protect better your employees if the sculptor is really having issues with the backlash cause he’s not the one to blame at all.

[Luna707]

I know personally and like most guys in the studio, and I’m quite the fanboy, but really can’t spin myself to be positive. I truly hope the sculptor hasn’t quit cause he had good ideas and what I want to reiterate is:

 

- Part as a base SW have one of the more rabid fan bases

- Make them wait for 4 years from the point in which they expected their release

- Release outstanding miniatures for all other legions

- Don’t put your best team on it or at least put a vet sculptor to oversee closely the project

- Showcase 7 months before release some miniatures that rise questions about their quality

- Do nothing and put them for sale 7 months later (praetor withdrawal excluded)

 

This has nothing to do with the sculptor and it’s just poor management. I would never put anyone but the best member of my team in such a hot seat and even then he’d have all my support.

 

The SW release has shown that FW is spread too thin with specialist games and 40k requiring more time of their top sculptors. Growing pains of a company growing from small to medium.

 

What’s unquestionable is this release was sub par with the HH standard. There were obvious mistakes unseen in any other release, questionable design choices and fur plenty of hobbyists (myself included) can do better with green stuff.

 

What I want to avoid is blaming the sculptor, he’s got talent and if he had someone behind him paying attention and bouncing back ideas from could have done an amazing job. FW answer to the inverted bolters mail ‘it was a designer choce’ really seems to point to a very siloed way of working where one individual has almost full control on a whole product line. That’s poor team setup, even the best can’t do it alone and need feedback.

 

Protect better your employees if the sculptor is really having issues with the backlash cause he’s not the one to blame at all.

 

I believe there is some truth to this. It definitely appears as though this is a result of growing pains coupled with the global change within GW in its entirety. GW is an entirely different company than it was five years ago and such a transformation is not going to arrive with zero downsides. Unfortunately the brunt of it fell on the quality of the Wolf line (and the Thousand Sons to an extent, apparently that Praetor was supposed to be a Skhmet originally until they ran out of time and had to produce a bland upgrade kit instead), however these miniatures seem to be a speed bump instead of the new norm. The preview of the Lernaean terminator shows a clear return to the kind of quality instilled by the first legion specific units and what we have come to expect from Forgeworld. That certainly restores my confidence in the future, I am happy I'm not a Wolf though, they certainly got the short end of the stick.

 

I don't believe it was the sculptors fault either, it definitely seems to be a culmination of many things that were outside his control. 

[Brofist]

How are Space Wolf players going to fix all their existing bolt weapons to match their grey slayer kits?

[Fafnir Rann]

I agree that a lot of the SW stuff has been sub par, particularly considering the prices forge world are charging, but I've also got to say that I'm not a massive fan of the current painting style they're using at the moment, especially on faces

Everything has a weird, over stylised quality to it which I think does the sculpts no favours

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

How are Space Wolf players going to fix all their existing bolt weapons to match their grey slayer kits?

 

easy, not buy any of waste of resin kits.

I'll scour the web for the few parts of this kit I want, but the vast majority of this is getting a hard pass.

[Guest]

The artists definitely has talent. I look at the other (non bolt gun) grey slayers kit and go "that matches the art! Even the controversial wood handle is from the artwork!" So it's obvious he has talent. It almost feels like the sculptor was rushed and bad QA/management for the rest. I will be picking up a shield and axe Grey Slayers kit but the bolter, termies, praetor can just be forgotten imo.

 

It's disappointing the sculptor left as it as apparent it isn't all on him. If he was a novice he should have had a senior helping. If he was a senior he should have been given time and proper feedback.

[Laughingman]

#Boltpistolgate.... If they want to charge a premium prices, they have to deliver a premium product. This is clearly neither...

[DuskRaider]

It was designed from scratch. It was an intentional choice. People claiming otherwise have no evidence or way to prove that this was a mistake and forge World themselves have said it was intentional.

 

Sure, an intentionally poor choice. It's literally the front sight on the bottom and the bayonet lug on the top. If that's intentional, then I'm actually glad to hear the sculptor quit because they either didn't understand basic design or just didn't care. Forge World QA has been on a serious decline for about a year now and the Space Wolves line has definitely suffered due to it. The line looks horrible and this is coming from a guy who despises Space Wolves and a many of their rabid fans. That we have tutorials on B&C which give instructions on how to make more realistic fur than the actual company can do is telling, not to mention the myriad of errors and omissions seen in the Index books, which required not only various FAQs but are still missing rules and in any case were handled so poorly in the Chapter Approved by GW that it's all moot since most of the models are too expensive to even be playable in most games.

[StruManChu]

Just going to drop this probably unpopular viewpoint in here and run away from all the angry...

 

These upgrade kits sold out before pretty much anything else at the Weekender, including Dorn/Valdor et al. That's despite the weird looking pistols, which I'd say most people I spoke to noticed, because they had enormous banners showing the bits. I definitely noticed, and I ordered some after they'd sold out, because the kits are cool, and if the pistols really end up bothering me I know how to fix them. They also had a few of the Praetors for sale, which also sold out. You know, that model that's been almost universally panned? There were about 60 or so of them out on Saturday morning, and they were gone by lunch. Interestingly, the few I picked up all had proper grips on their Bolters. Who would have thought?

 

The only thing I saw that had any stock left at the end of the Weekender was the Varagyr, but at £60, it's a much higher price point, but I'd still say they had more redeeming qualities than the Praetor did.

 

Obviously the feedback on the Space Wolf kits is overwhelmingly not positive, and I don't think anyone's arguing against that. However, realistically, the stuff seems to be selling when it's made available, and selling quickly. If you guys who aren't fans want to vote with your wallets, by all means do so, but you may be fighting an uphill battle. Equally, if the wallet vote carries, and they pull some or all of the kits that have been recently completed, any replacement kits for the Wolves will probably go to the back of a long queue of other stuff, which will take a good while to get through, especially if another of their sculptors has resigned because of the bad feedback they received. 

 

Also, the axe handles are supposed to be Kraken/Monster bone. Not wood. Expand your minds! :D

 

And now, I flee this thread. 

[LukeTheButcher]

If it looks like a duck and quakes like a duck....

 

Even if it was an intentional design choice, it looks liek an error and so is perceived to be an error. No matter how you spin it, I am struggling to understand why taking a very recognisable weapon design and 'tweaking' it is considered a good plan. If you want to make a new design, make a new design - to do otherwise is either lazy, or as it is percieved, an error.

 

So, either bad judgement call or bad QA.

 

Eitherway.... this is not good following the prior SW releases as it add's more weight to the negativity of the SW fans towards FW. If they had a history of this, it would be more understandable, but FW is being stung by its own (usually) very high and exacting standards. If this is a sign of 'rushing' or beding in new staff, I would prefer them not to rush products out and let the new staff practice on more generic models to keep the showpiece Legion specific models to the quality expected.

 

 

 - Just saw the post above. My recolection is that there where still a load of SW Praetors available at the end of Sunday. Not contracdicting per say, just a different perspective based on my experiences of the event. Equally, I looked but never noticed the bolt pistols. Because, if I have two seperate upgrades, 1 with cool shield and the other with bolt pistols.... I am looking at the cool, unique, SW shields over generic Bolt Pistols everytime. The inspipid choice of loadout put me off long before the issue with the bolt pistols was even raised.

Edited February 8, 2018 by LukeTheButcher

[Jackalwolf]

We are after all extreme fanboys. No-one else would take the time or have the interest to write about this otherwise.

 

I will probably but the Varagyr and do some heavy conversions (change arms for normal catphractii, remove heads so I can have 10, cut all loincloth and sculpt myself or use the Russian guy pelts) since I really like the torsos and legs, plus appreciate a lot the bigger Primaris scale.

 

I guess a junkie will even buy a subpar batch of drugs :)

[Huggtand]

Just going to drop this probably unpopular viewpoint in here and run away from all the angry...

 

These upgrade kits sold out before pretty much anything else at the Weekender, including Dorn/Valdor et al. That's despite the weird looking pistols, which I'd say most people I spoke to noticed, because they had enormous banners showing the bits. I definitely noticed, and I ordered some after they'd sold out, because the kits are cool, and if the pistols really end up bothering me I know how to fix them. They also had a few of the Praetors for sale, which also sold out. You know, that model that's been almost universally panned? There were about 60 or so of them out on Saturday morning, and they were gone by lunch. Interestingly, the few I picked up all had proper grips on their Bolters. Who would have thought?

 

The only thing I saw that had any stock left at the end of the Weekender was the Varagyr, but at £60, it's a much higher price point, but I'd still say they had more redeeming qualities than the Praetor did.

 

Obviously the feedback on the Space Wolf kits is overwhelmingly not positive, and I don't think anyone's arguing against that. However, realistically, the stuff seems to be selling when it's made available, and selling quickly. If you guys who aren't fans want to vote with your wallets, by all means do so, but you may be fighting an uphill battle. Equally, if the wallet vote carries, and they pull some or all of the kits that have been recently completed, any replacement kits for the Wolves will probably go to the back of a long queue of other stuff, which will take a good while to get through, especially if another of their sculptors has resigned because of the bad feedback they received. 

 

Also, the axe handles are supposed to be Kraken/Monster bone. Not wood. Expand your minds!

 

And now, I flee this thread. 

 

You don´t have to run away  even if we are many space wolves fans most don´t bite (so much) 

 

As I and many have said there are many things that actually are good in the latest SW range. I just bought a Varagyr legs-torso on eBay since that part of them (except for the fur and gorget) are good. I like the upgrade packs overall (heads mostly ok, shields, axes and shoulder pads really good, bolter goofy). The Praetor had the right feeling but to many small things that where not ok, so the hole suffered.

 

Its just that after stunning ranges like TS or Custodes, or for that part ongoing ranges like Necromunda, there was a certain expectation on the models that was not for-filled in the SW range for different reason.

 

I know that I may be in the minority in my opinions but there do seems to be a negative reaction on these models all over the internet not only from SW fanboys.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Huggtand

[RedFurioso]

So Rob really left FW or is it just a rumor? Who can confirm this?

[Marshal Rohr]

FW hasn’t had in house sculptors exclusively doing their work for a while. Most of their team are art students spread throughout Europe or people with other gigs too. You can find and follow all of them on IG and see a few of them advertising Skype lessons for sculpting. Some even take commissions.

[Lord Marshal]

The artists definitely has talent. I look at the other (non bolt gun) grey slayers kit and go "that matches the art! Even the controversial wood handle is from the artwork!" So it's obvious he has talent. It almost feels like the sculptor was rushed and bad QA/management for the rest. I will be picking up a shield and axe Grey Slayers kit but the bolter, termies, praetor can just be forgotten imo.

 

It's disappointing the sculptor left as it as apparent it isn't all on him. If he was a novice he should have had a senior helping. If he was a senior he should have been given time and proper feedback.

 

Yep.

 

I've worked with some great artists who can do pretty dire work compared to the detailed descriptions/references given to them... all up until it's pointed out, then they go back to the (literal?) drawing board, fixed and corrected it - usual several times - and whoosh eventually we get something back that's stellar and a great display of their skills whilst also being fitting of what was the original intention. There's a reason QA exists and I think people would be surprised just how much can be missed by even the best pros until a second, third, forth or fifth set of eyes points them out.

 

Like a few others here have said, it's more than likely bad management than the sculptor being poor. The range seemingly being rushed doesn't necessarily mean the sculptor himself rushed his work per say, just that somebody higher up signed off on them wwaaayy too early. Considering how quickly stuff like the lack of grip on the Praetor bolter was corrected that's probably the case here.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Lord Marshal

[Spinsanity]

If there's anything this thread here shows, it's that Space Wolf players do sound way more vocal than other Legions'.

 

Remember the IW chests? There were complaints, but nothing anywhere nearly as bad as what we're seeing now. People just decided not to bother and moved on. And these players had to wait way longer for their own terminators than the wolves players had to. And guess what, they still don't have IronHavok models either.

 

So yeah, I get it, the VI Legion players feel like they got the short stick. They're not the only ones who got disappointing releases, though, they just are the ones complaining the loudest.

[Leif Bearclaw]

That's not a legit comparison though. Nobody's pretending that there haven't been weird kits, or long waits for certain kits (although personally, I would've much rather waited as long as IW did for the Siege Tyrants, and got models of similar quality, rather than the sub-3rd party quality Varangyr). For the Wolves, it's not just one torso kit, but rather the vast majority of the range (somewhat ironically, the torso kit was one of the only kits well received). It's also the current releases, so of course there's going to be more active conversation than older kits.

 

So stop trying to spin this as 'awful whiny Wolves fans aren't happy'. It's not just Wolves fans (seemingly one of the larger sub-fandoms in the first place). In this thread, and others, it's not hard to find people who aren't Wolf fans commenting on the poor quality of these releases, and expressing sympathy for the Wolf fans who've waited for so long, only to get such a poor release. Whichever way you slice it, this has been one of the most negatively received FW ranges I've ever seen, and that's on FW, not the fans.

[Spinsanity]

So, the SW fanbase complained massively for an extended period of time that their kits were taking too long to come, and when they finally arrive, they started complaining the kits were released too quickly.

 

Is that what I should understand?

[rendingon1+]

Well to be fair IW upgrades, hit or miss as they were are not really necessaryfor IW as they belong to hm... universal Legions if you know wht I mean. Nothing in fluff really screams Iron Warriors except for some additional armour plating or targeters.

SW ARE special and always were no matter what people who dislike Wolves think.

As for these bolt pistols - shrug. Mayby they look weird but let's be serious, it's really nothing that can't be handled with a knife glue and 5 minutes to spare.

[LukeTheButcher]

Spinsanity,

 

I think you might be mistaking Volume (loudness of complaints) vs Volume (Sheer numbers of complaints).

 

Only question you need to ask is this. Are those complaints valid? And the answer is yes.

 

Then it just comes down to how FW as a company want to adress or ignore. Communication is key to manage expectations and this simply hasn't occured. So the expectation (using 1K Sons as a reasonable comparable release) has been a high quality product in line with the themes and flavour as set out in Inferno.

 

Not sure why you feel the need to belittle the SW fanbase's legitimate concerns about the products for their faction.