Whirlwinds

[Captain Idaho]

Let's talk about Whirlwinds and now to get the best out of them.

 

Whether you play competitive or narrative play I want to know what you think of this unit?

 

I'm building a list that uses multiple S7 Damage 2/3 platforms (2 Whirlwinds and a Predator) to hit people at range. Funnsies.

 

I still use a Devastator squad and Venerable Dreadnought with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launcher in support of course.

 

I lean towards the Vengeance Launchers not just because of my own army build but because Damage 2 is amazing. What do people think about the Castellen launcher though?

 

I believe if you have a Lieutenant and Techmarine hiding at the back you'll be able to boost killing power and survivability of the artillery.

 

Lastly and somewhat marginally is the Stratagem and Land Speeders... is it any good?

[Kierdale]

I’m keep to hear people’s opinions on this too as I’ve always liked Whirlwinds.

[golfdeltafoxtrot]

I've been pondering this recently. I'm considering including a Whirlwind (+/- a Land Speeder for the Stratagem) for some long range fire support in my Raven Guard. I haven't played in a long time, but I think I remember hearing that Whirlwinds performed poorly in previous editions.

 

I like the idea of a Land Speeder camping out to act as forward fire control for a Whirlwind hidden in a building or ruin, bringing fiery death down from nowhere.

 

Does that sound effective, or useless? Help a new guy out.

[Charlo]

Indirect fire is quality and whirlwinds are rather cheap and unique for what they bring.

 

The stratagem is pretty nice too, letting your Speeders play point man and guaranteeing the number of hits you roll is awesome, instead of the average 2/3 of what you roll.

[derLumpi]

I will try the Scorpius from FW. He can shoot twice if he remained stationary. Paired with a LS for the stratagem this should remove some wounds from the enemy. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Well the Scorpius isn't really the point of discussion here but I'm sure if that thing hit automatically it'll ruin someone's day.

 

Anyway... being just over 100pts is fairly cheap for a 2D3 shot, S7 weapon that ignores Line of Sight issues so it's hard to pass up. It even hurts vehicles in a pinch but I'd rather be hitting heavy infantry with it.

 

Primaris would hate the thing. Adeptus Mechanicus wouldn't much like it either.

 

It feels like a weapons platform that is designed to hurt models with decent invulnerable saves. Consider Mortarion (extreme example) or Blightlord Terminators - the modest AP isn't such a disadvantage against such models when they have amazing invulnerable saves.

 

A 50-50 save isn't something to rely upon when you are hitting and wounding with multiple shots. 2D3 shots averages 4 but we all know a time when we roll 5 or 6. That hurts and the potential of it can really gut a unit.

 

Not so good at horde clearance but then that's what Bolters and Vanguard are for :)

[Prot]

I've run both variants... I think they're both decent.. fun units. I used to run the Strat but the problem is the speeder. Man people hate those things... I tried running them cheap, and I tried running them with the missiles. They actually are decent gunships but just die too easily and are a wicked candidate for Firstblood, or Kill something with Fly.

[MeltaRange]

I still can't see the argument for the Scopius being eligible for Datalink Telemetry.  The stratagem mentions "Whirlwind" not "WHIRLWIND" which means it's referring to the datasheet name, not the keyword.  Has this been FAQ'ed, or do people just point to that post by GW on the community page?

 

I use Whirlwinds because I like indirect fire, and I think they are a great choice for being deployed on the board in armies that use a lot of infantry and/or reserves because it sort of bones the opponent's anti-tank if they can't see any tanks to shoot at.  And even if they can see them, it's not a huge loss to remove a 100 point model.

[Captain Idaho]

Conversely, I actually like the saturation a Whirlwind or 2 adds to an army for relatively cheap.

[Melete]

How are people finding Whirlwinds compared to Thunderfire Cannons? They serve a similar enough role, but I think I prefer the TFC thanks to its stratagem shutting down a lot of annoying units.

[Firepower]

I feel like the Whirlwind has potential to hurt nastier units with the Vengeance Launcher than a Thunderfire can.  Conversely, I think the Thunderfire Stratagem is very good, while the Whirlwind one...well, it's not that the Stratagem is bad, it's that I think Landspeeders are overpriced (again), you have to get the Speeder uncomfortably close to the target, and in general I dislike Stratagems that require you to take multiple units.  The Whirlwind's range is superior, but 60" for the Thunderfire won't leave much out of range to begin with.  The Thunderfire also comes packaged with a Techmarine, which has its boons (parking other tanks alongside him) and banes (upping the overall price of the Thunderfire).

 

In short, it feels like the Vengeance Whirlwind is built to hurt things, while the Thunderfire is built to harass things.  I would take the Thunderfire over the Castellan launcher, partly for the -1 AP, but mostly because 4D3 shots is a better buffer against disappointing shooting than 2D6.

[RandomMarine]

still can't see the argument for the Scopius being eligible for Datalink Telemetry. The stratagem mentions "Whirlwind" not "WHIRLWIND" which means it's referring to the datasheet name, not the keyword. Has this been FAQ'ed, or do people just point to that post by GW on the community page?

 

The biggest hint is forge world selling a bundle called Data link telemetry containing 2 Scorpius and the fw landspeeder

[MeltaRange]

The biggest hint is forge world selling a bundle called Data link telemetry containing 2 Scorpius and the fw landspeeder

 

That's reaching at best.  Normally I'm very lax on this kind of thing but the rules are pretty clear here IMO. (same with Killshot not affecting Baal Preds)

 

The stratagem is pretty cool though.  It removes the penalty from being on lower damage tiers completely so a Whirlwind on 1 wound is auto hitting rather than on 5+!

[Captain Idaho]

The best use of a Land Speeder in this case would likely be Heavy Flamers who want to get close anyway.

 

Shame they can't move and advance then fire like Blight Drones.

[Race Bannon]

Naw man, double HB.  LEAD FARMING!

Edited March 1, 2018 by Race Bannon
Derp

[Aothaine]

I've been thinking about building a scout list that uses the whirlwinds as support. It works better with Blood Angels but it can be okay with other chapters as well. Blood Angels +1 to wound for melee scouts is pretty darn good. Though I could really see the benefit of 10-man Bolter scouts using the Ultramarines withdraw and fire tactic while whirlwinds rain death on the enemy. In fact... I almost want to build it. 

 

So you run the following:

 

HQ

Rhino Primaris

Rhino Primaris

Captain or Librarian? Not sure what the best combo here would be but you want the relic for the 3+ invuln and extra deny and the ability to regen command points

 

Troops

Scout Squad (10-man) Bolters (Four squads of these)

Scout Squad (5-man) Camo-Cloaks Bolterx4 Missile Launcher in Land Speeder Storms

 

Fast Attack

Scout Bikes (6-man) Two squads

Land Speeder Squadron (3 land speeders) One with  Multi-melta x2 Two with Heavy Bolter x2

 

Heavy Support

Whirlwind x3

 

Again not sure about points but, if possible, add another detachment of scouts and a few more whirlwinds or possibly three Tri-Las predators. That would be super tasty! 

[Captain Idaho]

What sort of munitions are the Whirlwinds using? I presume Vengeance?

 

My problem with longer ranged Land Speeders for the Stratagem is they have to be within 12" of the target. Hence my preference for Heavy Flamers.

 

(I've actually got a 2nd edition Land Speeder that is missing the bottom that connects to the base but I might see about what I can do to add it to my force. Because it's cool)

[MeltaRange]

Given how horrible the Scout models look compared to primaris or even regular marines, it should would be tough for me personally to stomach making an army like that!  But that's a topic for another day.

 

Keep in mind you can only affect just one whirlwind per turn with the datalink strat.  So, it's not really a tactic worth building your army around.  If it were me, I'd stick to 1-2 whirlwinds and 1-2 speeders armed with heavy flamers and heavy bolters.  I would datalink whatever whirlwind was more injured.  Certainly would be nice against armies like Alaitoc that spam Hemlocks.

[Aothaine]

Given how horrible the Scout models look compared to primaris or even regular marines, it should would be tough for me personally to stomach making an army like that!  But that's a topic for another day.

 

Keep in mind you can only affect just one whirlwind per turn with the datalink strat.  So, it's not really a tactic worth building your army around.  If it were me, I'd stick to 1-2 whirlwinds and 1-2 speeders armed with heavy flamers and heavy bolters.  I would datalink whatever whirlwind was more injured.  Certainly would be nice against armies like Alaitoc that spam Hemlocks.

 

That is what the two primaris Rhinos are for. Gives the Whirlwinds +1 to hit so they are hitting on 2+ with a captain rerolling 1s. Pretty close to three auto hitting whirlwinds a turn.

[golfdeltafoxtrot]

Keep in mind you can only affect just one whirlwind per turn with the datalink strat. So, it's not really a tactic worth building your army around. If it were me, I'd stick to 1-2 whirlwinds and 1-2 speeders armed with heavy flamers and heavy bolters. I would datalink whatever whirlwind was more injured. Certainly would be nice against armies like Alaitoc that spam Hemlocks.

This sounds like a reasonable plan - a hidden Whirlwind or two in the back line, with a couple of barebones Speeders to spot for them, so that when they inevitably get blown out of the sky you’ve got redundancy and you haven’t sunk too many points into their fragile frames.

[Solrac]

Chucked the Castellan vs Vengeance into Mathhammer for funzies (and because I made a DA parking lot list with 4 Predators and 5 Whirlwinds lol)

Castellan vs Vengeance

Vs Guardsman
Castellan = 7 shots, 4.667 hits, 3.889 wounds, 2.593 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 2.667 hits, 2.222 wounds, 1.852 unsaved wounds

With re-roll 1s to hit and wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 5.444 hits, 5.293 wounds, 3.529 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.111 hits, 3.025 wounds, 2.521 unsaved wounds

With re-roll all to hit and 1s to wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 6.049 wounds, 4.033 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 3.457 wounds, 2.881 unsaved wounds

Vs MEQ
Castellan = 7 shots, 4.667 hits, 3.111 wounds, 1.037 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 2.667 hits, 1.778 wounds, 0.889 unsaved wounds

With re-roll 1s to hit and wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 5.444 hits, 4.235 wounds, 1.412 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.111 hits, 2.420 wounds, 1.210 unsaved wounds

With re-roll all to hit and 1s to wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 4.840 wounds, 1.613 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 2.765 wounds, 1.383 unsaved wounds

Ultra Whirlwinds with Guilliman
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 5.531 wounds, 1.844 unsaved wounds
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 3.160 wounds, 1.580 unsaved wounds

Vs TEQ
Castellan = 7 shots, 4.667 hits, 3.111 wounds, 0.519 unsaved wounds, 0.519 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 2.667 hits, 1.778 wounds, 0.593 unsaved wounds, 1.185 total damage

With re-roll 1s to hit and wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 5.444 hits, 4.235 wounds, 0.706 unsaved wounds, 0.706 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.111 hits, 2.420 wounds, 0.807 unsaved wounds, 1.613 total damage

With re-roll all to hit and 1s to wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 4.840 wounds, 0.807 unsaved wounds, 0.807 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 2.765 wounds, 0.922 unsaved wounds, 1.844 total damage

Ultra Whirlwinds with Guilliman
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 5.531 wounds, 0.922 unsaved wounds, 0.922 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 3.160 wounds, 1.053 unsaved wounds, 2.107 total damage

Vs Predator
Castellan = 7 shots, 4.667 hits, 1.556 wounds, 0.519 unsaved wounds, 0.519 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 2.667 hits, 1.333 wounds, 0.667 unsaved wounds, 1.333 total damage

With re-roll 1s to hit and wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 5.444 hits, 2.117 wounds, 0.706 unsaved wounds, 0.706 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.111 hits, 1.815 wounds, 0.907 unsaved wounds, 1.815 total damage

With re-roll all to hit and 1s to wound
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 2.420 wounds, 0.807 unsaved wounds, 0.807 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 2.074 wounds, 1.037 unsaved wounds, 2.074 total damage

Ultra Whirlwinds with Guilliman
Castellan = 7 shots, 6.222 hits, 3.457 wounds, 1.152 unsaved wounds, 1.152 total damage
Vengeance = 4 shots, 3.556 hits, 2.667 wounds, 1.333 unsaved wounds, 2.667 total damage

With no re-rolls they aren't that different. Obviously the Castellan excels at killing T3 because more average shots. On to the tougher stuff however they aren't that much different. If you are planning to take bulk Whirlwinds (4 or more) you are probably better off taking more of the cheaper Castellans than the Vengeance.

 

The one thing I dislike about the stratagem is that you have to use it and spend the CP before rolling the number of shots but I guess allowing you to use the stratagem after determining the number of shots might be a bit much.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Solrac