Thoughts on Female Space Marines (Ashes of Prospero)

[Wargamer]

 

The problem is that Space Marines have cultivated a masculine image, an image that has been around for a good while. They are and have been a brotherhood of warriors, the dynamics between space marines are unique to them in a way that I think it would be awkward to insert female Space Marines into the mix. 

 

 

Imperial Guard and Inquisitors are a different breed though. They don't have the whole brotherhood of warriors vibe to them or not to the extent that introducing female characters would be awkward. The Gaunts Ghosts series is an example of how female guard characters can be inserted and inserted well. True it lost the vibe of a surviving brotherhood fighting to keep the spirit of their world alive but the guard are human, it became a collection of lost souls fighting just to live another day. Space Marines are not human characters, their doubts and fears are not the same as the doubts and fears of a normal human. Their motivations are not the same as a humans. They have a code of honor that they follow without question to an extent that no normal human could. 

 

So the point to this whole ramble is that the Space Marines have a unique image that just doesn't mesh with the concept of female Space Marines. 

 

Space Marines didn't cultivate a masculine image any more than Guard did. For the longest time every member of every Imperial fighting force was male by default. Yet nobody batted an eyelid when the ultra-masculine Stormtroopers got female members, nor the ultra-masculine Catachans got female members.

 

It's a bollocks argument. You might as well be arguing the existence of Catachan models somehow threatens your Cadian collection.

[Yodhrin]

Except it's not inclusion for the sake of inclusion. Your argument against female marines by comparing to "brothers of silence" or "brothers of battle" is disingenuous.

 

Space Marines are essentially a race - there's a million of them, spread across a thousand Chapters. There's a thousand different takes on them, with a thousand different cultures and doctrines and beliefs.

 

There is ONE order of the Silent Sisterhood. There is ONE order of the Adepta Sororitas. These are organisations that fill a very narrow niche.

 

Marines are more fairly compared to the Guard. Why do we need Female Guard if the whole point of them is to be gun fodder, not romantic characters? Because it adds to the setting for people who enjoy certain tropes and themes. People who add female characters don't do so for some political statement or for shipping fantasies - some of us just think our Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor looks cooler as a Gothic female.

 

Now who's being disingenuous. Space Marines are a subfaction of the Imperium of Mankind, just like Sisters. They are divided into sub-subfactions, so are the Sisters. They're an elite power-armoured military force, so are the Sisters. The idea that the first is "its own race" and the other is just a narrow niche group is nonsense - that may be how the sales figures shake out in reality(whatever the reasons for that are, another debate entirely), but it is *not* supported by the background.

 

What tropes and themes, exactly, other than romantic or (as I argue, superficial)political ones, do female Marines provide that aren't already provided by Sisters?

[Triszin]

 

Except it's not inclusion for the sake of inclusion. Your argument against female marines by comparing to "brothers of silence" or "brothers of battle" is disingenuous.

 

Space Marines are essentially a race - there's a million of them, spread across a thousand Chapters. There's a thousand different takes on them, with a thousand different cultures and doctrines and beliefs.

 

There is ONE order of the Silent Sisterhood. There is ONE order of the Adepta Sororitas. These are organisations that fill a very narrow niche.

 

Marines are more fairly compared to the Guard. Why do we need Female Guard if the whole point of them is to be gun fodder, not romantic characters? Because it adds to the setting for people who enjoy certain tropes and themes. People who add female characters don't do so for some political statement or for shipping fantasies - some of us just think our Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor looks cooler as a Gothic female.

 

Now who's being disingenuous. Space Marines are a subfaction of the Imperium of Mankind, just like Sisters. They are divided into sub-subfactions, so are the Sisters. They're an elite power-armoured military force, so are the Sisters. The idea that the first is "its own race" and the other is just a narrow niche group is nonsense - that may be how the sales figures shake out in reality(whatever the reasons for that are, another debate entirely), but it is *not* supported by the background.

 

What tropes and themes, exactly, other than romantic or (as I argue, superficial)political ones, do female Marines provide that aren't already provided by Sisters?

 

the only thing I would say is; Non sexualized armor.

 

It would also show how desperate some marine chapters are that they are no longer looking at one gender, and they are trying every available option since the galaxy ripped itself in half. adding to the desperate grim nature of 40k

[Wargamer]

You cannot compare Marines to Sisters anymore than you can compare Marines to the Mordian Iron Guard. The former has broad rules but a great deal of flexibility in application - the latter has a well-defined and rigidly enforced motif.

 

Sisters are always Nuns with Guns, but Space Marines can be Monks with Guns, Crusaders in Space, Romans in Space, Mongols in Space, Space Vikings, stealthy bastards, heavily mutated monsters, technologically advanced future-men, backwards looking techno-barbarians and anything else in between.

 

Or to put it another way - there is no flavour of Custodes that are NOT the Emperor's personal guard. They might guard his throne, his dungeons, his palace or his ruined works, but they are all his guard. There are no Adeptus Custodes pulling humanitarian duties on the Eastern Fringe.

 

This is why Marines are a "race", but Sisters, Custodians and the like are not.

[Ishagu]

There are far more Sisters of Battle, with multiple sub factions of different Sisterhoods, then there are Space Marines.

 

Please convince me that diluting their great lore so I can have Brothers of Battle is a good idea.

 

*Edit*

 

You can totally, 100% compare them lol. Both wear power armour and are equipped with bolters.

Guard are far more different and separate from either.

[Terrified Templar]

 

 

The problem is that Space Marines have cultivated a masculine image, an image that has been around for a good while. They are and have been a brotherhood of warriors, the dynamics between space marines are unique to them in a way that I think it would be awkward to insert female Space Marines into the mix. 

 

 

Imperial Guard and Inquisitors are a different breed though. They don't have the whole brotherhood of warriors vibe to them or not to the extent that introducing female characters would be awkward. The Gaunts Ghosts series is an example of how female guard characters can be inserted and inserted well. True it lost the vibe of a surviving brotherhood fighting to keep the spirit of their world alive but the guard are human, it became a collection of lost souls fighting just to live another day. Space Marines are not human characters, their doubts and fears are not the same as the doubts and fears of a normal human. Their motivations are not the same as a humans. They have a code of honor that they follow without question to an extent that no normal human could. 

 

So the point to this whole ramble is that the Space Marines have a unique image that just doesn't mesh with the concept of female Space Marines. 

 

Space Marines didn't cultivate a masculine image any more than Guard did. For the longest time every member of every Imperial fighting force was male by default. Yet nobody batted an eyelid when the ultra-masculine Stormtroopers got female members, nor the ultra-masculine Catachans got female members.

 

It's a bollocks argument. You might as well be arguing the existence of Catachan models somehow threatens your Cadian collection.

 

I disagree, the only Space Marines that ever appeared in the lore and miniatures are men, and not only that but heavily modified and augmented men. Space knights, space romans, space monks, these are all themes that carry with them a uniquely masculine connotation to them. Could you imagine a female member in Squad Grimaldus in Helsreach? How about a female member of the Mournival in the Horus trilogy? Space marines have a unique image to them that the Guard and Inquisition just don't have.

 

Nobody batted an eye when females entered the Imperial Fighting force cause there was no lore against it, as others have pointed out the lore is specific on saying that only men can become space marines. True every member of the Imperial Guard was male for a long time but they were human, Space Marines as I have already said are not human, by becoming Space Marines they lose that humanity. Females characters appeared but they were not Space Marine, they were human (yeah and xenos but that's not relevant right now). What does this mean? It means they can be integrated into the Imperial Guard because the ultra masculine stormtroopers and Catachans are human as well. They are normal (40k normal) human beings. Space Marines are not.

 

Could a separate chapter exist of purely female space marines? If yes then that begs other questions. Who was their Primarch? The concept of the Emperor and his Primarchs, his sons, are pretty well set in stone. Even the lost Primarchs are considered to be lost sons. And again the question would be why now? Why are there now female space marines? 

[Wargamer]

 

I disagree, the only Space Marines that ever appeared in the lore and miniatures are men, and not only that but heavily modified and augmented men. Space knights, space romans, space monks, these are all themes that carry with them a uniquely masculine connotation to them. Could you imagine a female member in Squad Grimaldus in Helsreach? How about a female member of the Mournival in the Horus trilogy? Space marines have a unique image to them that the Guard and Inquisition just don't have.

 

 

Considering one of the supporting characters in that novel was the first female Stormtrooper I ever encountered in 40K lore... yes.

[Ishagu]

There is a great theme to Marines that is lost on people. The Emperor and his Sons, the Primarchs, and in turn their sons - the Astartes.

For all their glory and splendour, their legacy is unending war and mysery for the Imperium. This is very much a male centered irony.

 

Marines have been explicitly described as male, specifically so.

All other general forces have only been described as human, no prior limitations in setting or lore.

 

For anyone to say that having female marines is not a big change to the setting is an indication of limited understanding and knowledge of it.

 

Also, why aren't the same people arguing for Brothers of Battle!?

[Wargamer]

Because you've been given the reason, so just read that post again.

 

Sisters are Nuns with Guns and nothing else - same as Custodians are "The Emperor's Bodyguards" and nothing else.

 

Marines are a broad faction with whatever flavour you like - same as Guard.

[Kastor Krieg]

> Also, why aren't the same people arguing for Brothers of Battle!? 

You can't really be asking this in good faith. 

 

[Yodhrin]

 

 

Except it's not inclusion for the sake of inclusion. Your argument against female marines by comparing to "brothers of silence" or "brothers of battle" is disingenuous.

 

Space Marines are essentially a race - there's a million of them, spread across a thousand Chapters. There's a thousand different takes on them, with a thousand different cultures and doctrines and beliefs.

 

There is ONE order of the Silent Sisterhood. There is ONE order of the Adepta Sororitas. These are organisations that fill a very narrow niche.

 

Marines are more fairly compared to the Guard. Why do we need Female Guard if the whole point of them is to be gun fodder, not romantic characters? Because it adds to the setting for people who enjoy certain tropes and themes. People who add female characters don't do so for some political statement or for shipping fantasies - some of us just think our Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor looks cooler as a Gothic female.

 

Now who's being disingenuous. Space Marines are a subfaction of the Imperium of Mankind, just like Sisters. They are divided into sub-subfactions, so are the Sisters. They're an elite power-armoured military force, so are the Sisters. The idea that the first is "its own race" and the other is just a narrow niche group is nonsense - that may be how the sales figures shake out in reality(whatever the reasons for that are, another debate entirely), but it is *not* supported by the background.

 

What tropes and themes, exactly, other than romantic or (as I argue, superficial)political ones, do female Marines provide that aren't already provided by Sisters?

 

the only thing I would say is; Non sexualized armor.

 

It would also show how desperate some marine chapters are that they are no longer looking at one gender, and they are trying every available option since the galaxy ripped itself in half. adding to the desperate grim nature of 40k

 

 

Sisters are not sexualised. Oh I know a lot of people will be angrily shouting "WHUT?!?" at that, but they aren't. They are overtly female, yes, but they're no more sexualised than a miniature of a male Landsnechkt with a ludicrously oversized codpiece is sexualised. In the same way that the latter is a statement of "I R big man with big willy phear my combat prowess", the former is a statement of "sod off, you don't need a willy to kick ass".

 

The latter argument might have worked, had they not already "fixed" the desperation with Primaris(ie, the solution they created the problem to enable in the first place).

 

You cannot compare Marines to Sisters anymore than you can compare Marines to the Mordian Iron Guard. The former has broad rules but a great deal of flexibility in application - the latter has a well-defined and rigidly enforced motif.

 

Sisters are always Nuns with Guns, but Space Marines can be Monks with Guns, Crusaders in Space, Romans in Space, Mongols in Space, Space Vikings, stealthy bastards, heavily mutated monsters, technologically advanced future-men, backwards looking techno-barbarians and anything else in between.

 

Or to put it another way - there is no flavour of Custodes that are NOT the Emperor's personal guard. They might guard his throne, his dungeons, his palace or his ruined works, but they are all his guard. There are no Adeptus Custodes pulling humanitarian duties on the Eastern Fringe.

 

This is why Marines are a "race", but Sisters, Custodians and the like are not.

 

So you're creating an entirely artificial distinction because it suits your argument. By the standards you create here, Tau are not a race. Neither are Necrons. There is no flavour of Tau that aren't just Tau in different coloured armour. No flavour of Necron that aren't just Necrons with a different subfaction name.

 

Further, it's a distinction that's completely divorced from the actual fluff, because there are probably Sisters performing humanitarian duties(for proper, God-Emperor fearing humans) on the Eastern Fringe, and everywhere else in the galaxy - the Orders Hospitaller. There are also Sisters engaging in linguistic research for the Ordo Xenos or cataloguing the various High and Low Gothic dialects around the galaxy - the Orders Diagolous. There are Sisters instructing the young scions of the noble houses, acting as executors of the nobility's estates and guardians of their histories and genealogies, and as advisors to their rulers - the Orders Famulous. There are even Sisters who dedicate their whole purpose to bodyguarding Missionaries, or acting as artefact hunters and guardians on behalf of the Ecclesiarchy. And, yes, there are the many, many Orders Militant.

 

Lets be 1000% real here - the reason there are monk-Marines and wolfie-Marines and angry-Marines and sinister-Marines and crusader-Marines etc etc is that GW wanted to sell more Marines than they already did and so enhanced the previously minor differences in character between Chapters to the point of Flanderisation. Some of us can remember when Blood Angels were Marines with a single special unit and one special rule, when Space Wolves were just Marines with different names, and when just about every other Chapter mentioned was basic, bog-standard Codex-compliant differently-coloured-Ultramarines. If they'd devoted the same amount of resources to Sisters(and I'm glad, so glad they did not) they would have a dozen different archetypes of Order Militant as well.

[Wargamer]

The fact that alien races don't get fleshed out with the same flexibility and variety of Marines and Guard isn't a rebuttal of my argument. Besides, it's made pretty damn clear that every other race either has females, or is a race where ideas of male and female simply do not apply (but I've seen various ideas of Necrons who were female when they were alive...).

[Melete]

I think at the end of the day, we can all rest assured that Games Workshop would never make large, retroactive, and world-changing alterations to the lore of the game.

[Ishagu]

> Also, why aren't the same people arguing for Brothers of Battle!?

 

You can't really be asking this in good faith.

 

Why not? We seem to be ignoring past lore and the setting for the sake of inclusion.

 

I want Brothers of Battle and Brothers of Silence!

[Terrified Templar]

 

 

I disagree, the only Space Marines that ever appeared in the lore and miniatures are men, and not only that but heavily modified and augmented men. Space knights, space romans, space monks, these are all themes that carry with them a uniquely masculine connotation to them. Could you imagine a female member in Squad Grimaldus in Helsreach? How about a female member of the Mournival in the Horus trilogy? Space marines have a unique image to them that the Guard and Inquisition just don't have.

 

 

Considering one of the supporting characters in that novel was the first female Stormtrooper I ever encountered in 40K lore... yes.

 

That is not what I meant, I was asking if you could imagine say Primus or Cador as a female, the stormtrooper is not a member of Squad Grimaldus and might I add has little to no interaction with Grimaldus and his knights.  

[Ishagu]

I feel small minorities with a lot of time on their hands have propagated this terrible idea out of misguided inclusion politics.

[Yodhrin]

The fact that alien races don't get fleshed out with the same flexibility and variety of Marines and Guard isn't a rebuttal of my argument. Besides, it's made pretty damn clear that every other race either has females, or is a race where ideas of male and female simply do not apply (but I've seen various ideas of Necrons who were female when they were alive...).

 

Dayum son, I gotta get me some of these rocket-powered goalposts, they move so fast you can barely see them.

 

The fact that less popular(not unpopular, before any Xenos fans get uppity) factions don't get fleshed out with the same flexibility and variety as Marines and Guard isn't a rebuttal of your argument. Except for Sisters, who are different because...? You can't just assert something, and you don't get to run away from your own logic the moment it's turned around on you. Address the points, substantively, or concede them.

[Triszin]

Sisters are not sexualised. Oh I know a lot of people will be angrily shouting "WHUT?!?" at that, but they aren't. They are overtly female, yes, but they're no more sexualised than a miniature of a male Landsnechkt with a ludicrously oversized codpiece is sexualised. In the same way that the latter is a statement of "I R big man with big willy phear my combat prowess", the former is a statement of "sod off, you don't need a willy to kick ass".

 

Catachan are overtly musculatured therefore sexualized, if you were comparing SoB to Cat's then I understand your arguement. But to say sisters are not sexualized is ridiculous. If there was one unit of SoB that resembled the current line then it would be like the catachan, an offshoot. But when the only models you can get are practically the same? ehh

 

 

 

 

I feel small minorities with a lot of time on their hands have propagated this terrible idea out of misguided inclusion politics.

 

Inclusion politics havent been touched here...

 

I purposefully keep politics off of war hammer sights

[Yodhrin]

 

Sisters are not sexualised. Oh I know a lot of people will be angrily shouting "WHUT?!?" at that, but they aren't. They are overtly female, yes, but they're no more sexualised than a miniature of a male Landsnechkt with a ludicrously oversized codpiece is sexualised. In the same way that the latter is a statement of "I R big man with big willy phear my combat prowess", the former is a statement of "sod off, you don't need a willy to kick ass".

 

Catachan are overtly musculatured therefore sexualized, if you were comparing SoB to Cat's then I understand your arguement. But to say sisters are not sexualized is ridiculous. If there was one unit of SoB that resembled the current line then it would be like the catachan, an offshoot. But when the only models you can get are practically the same? ehh

 

 

 

 

I feel small minorities with a lot of time on their hands have propagated this terrible idea out of misguided inclusion politics.

 

Inclusion politics havent been touched here...

 

I purposefully keep politics off of war hammer sights

 

 

I don't get your point. Having the characteristics of one sex or another, even to an exaggerated degree, is not sexualisation. 

[Ishagu]

Sisters aren't sexy by the way. They display the female form but not in an inviting or arousing manner.

 

Some of the male models on the other hand are pretty homo erotic, in a silly cartoon way lol

 

Remember guys, Sexual distinction does not equate to over sexualisation.

[Triszin]

Have any of you done character studies, or design studies on how to draw, show gender?

 

These are pretty basic things you pick up in the first year of any design college.

 

-----

 

off topic

--------

 

The reality of SoB design more than likely boils down to how to make a design and have it be identifiable as a female in 28mm scale in the 80 when the technology for miniatures was in its infancy0

as a result you have to over exaggerate features to make models recognizable. Faces are hard, especially attempting to differentiate faces of the opposite gender, especially at that scale, thats why all the models have long hair, but if hte models only had long hair then what would be the difference between a male figure with long hair to a passerby? not much, therefore you have to exaggerate the other features of the female model, thats more than likly why SoB are BDSM leather clad inspired, high heels, breast plates that show curvature, thigh high boots and armor.

 

Well technology has advanced quite a bit, the Escher models have shown how far GW has come, and frankly I hope GW step it up with the next generation of SoB models. With the advancement of tech you can model proportions better, and make faces more feminine, more identifiable.

 

SoB originaly design was more than likely heavily influenced by the technology available.

 

-----------

 

on topic

------------

 

after cawl and his alterations, creations of Primaris, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a splash of hints that maybe female marines are possible.

 

and maybe GW will merge the idea of a female marine with future sisters release, modernize the armor of the SoB as the modernized the vehicles and equipment of the spacemarines.

[Commander Dawnstar]

Soon we'll have people asking for distinct Female Necron models or Orks.

 

Not to go a little off-topic, but I definitely would like to see a female special character for the Necrons in the future. We have big-name individuals out there like Xun'bakyr and have seen one-off characters like Valnyr, Shaudukar and Phaerakh Nazkhel from Devourer who certainly still think of themselves as female, so I really don't see what the problem would be with having a distinct female Necron even if her model wasn't distinctly female - if you get what I mean.

[Karack Blackstone]

Thanks all, for keeping this thread civil, thus far; please, by all means, keep it up.

 

I do not see a reason to include women into the Astartes ranks, if all it proves to be is inclusion only driven change.

 

The reason I see as a good, ground breaking, lore defining, and meaningful inclusion into the setting is more along the lines of having women tested, the ones able to pass are treated exactly the same as the men, and, they start up through the Chapter's ranks, from Initiate, to Aspirant, to Blood Claw, and on through the ranks, to use one example. Please, let's keep real world politics out of this current discussion; in the fiction of the Warhammer 40,000 setting, I would expect the equality mindset of the rest of the Imperium to apply here.

 

The Sisters of Battle need to come before this idea ever even truly enters GW's collective minds as a long-term concept; that typed, they do seem to be thinking outside the box. While the in-fluff setting might have been allowed to stagnate, has instead been attempted to be improved, for the sake of keeping the situation alive, vibrant and changing, to not kill their own intellectual property.

 

Sisters need far more help, first; the issue to me is, if FeMarines are more than a simple head swap, isn't that just going past the equality issue? This subject is delicate, and, yes, there are many way to do this thought, long term. The problem, as with everything worth doing, is if, how.

 

I personally think it is at the least worth investigating, long term; the result and the fluff, given the Primaris handling does not inspire great faith in me. That typed, maybe they are prepared to learn something should they consider this path, the subject of this thread.

 

Plastic Sisters, solid, force supporting fluff, and female Guard first; FeMarines, should it be done, must be done well, or else they will drive away their current customers.

 

 

Triszin, on 28 Feb 2018 - 4:09 PM, said:

    Have any of you done character studies, or design studies on how to draw, show gender?

    These are pretty basic things you pick up in the first year of any design college.

    -----

    off topic

    --------

    The reality of SoB design more than likely boils down to how to make a design and have it be identifiable as a female in 28mm scale in the 80 when the technology for miniatures was in its infancy0

    as a result you have to over exaggerate features to make models recognizable. Faces are hard, especially attempting to differentiate faces of the opposite gender, especially at that scale, thats why all the models have long hair, but if hte models only had long hair then what would be the difference between a male figure with long hair to a passerby? not much, therefore you have to exaggerate the other features of the female model, thats more than likly why SoB are BDSM leather clad inspired, high heels, breast plates that show curvature, thigh high boots and armor.

    Well technology has advanced quite a bit, the Escher models have shown how far GW has come, and frankly I hope GW step it up with the next generation of SoB models. With the advancement of tech you can model proportions better, and make faces more feminine, more identifiable.

    SoB originaly design was more than likely heavily influenced by the technology available.

    -----------

    on topic

    ------------

    after cawl and his alterations, creations of Primaris, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a splash of hints that maybe female marines are possible.

    and maybe GW will merge the idea of a female marine with future sisters release, modernize the armor of the SoB as the modernized the vehicles and equipment of the spacemarines.

 

Triz, thanks for this, I personally wanted to add, if a Sisters player is given the option to choose to have regular Sisters of Battle, or, given their personal inclination as a player, the chance to include headswap FeMarines, I wonder where this could go.

 

For those that need some perspective, if Sisters of Battle become exclusively FeMarines, isn't that the same as the Primaris models rendering all prior Marines models totally invalid, unless the rules change the basic Marine statline?

[Wargamer]

You can't just assert something, and you don't get to run away from your own logic the moment it's turned around on you. Address the points, substantively, or concede them.

My logic is consistent. Sisters have a rigid theme that cannot deviate from "Bolter :cuss " anymore than Banshees can deviate from "Space Elves with power swords who scream at people".

 

Marines are not bound by these limitations. And yes, popularity matters - the reason people care is because they actually play the armies they're talking about! Sisters are a failed range in part because of their limited appeal, just like how a majority of Guard players who asked for plastic Guard were disappointed with Catachans, but were far more welcoming of plastic Cadians.

 

I've no interest in male Sisters because being an all female force is central to their background, just as being all male is central to the Vostroyan Firstborn. However, there is a difference between saying that there shouldn't be female Vostroyans, and saying there shouldn't be female Guard.

 

You can justify any given Chapter not having female Marines, but the argument against the FACTION not having female members doesn't hold up.

[Ishagu]

Hold up. A big Sisters release might be around the corner and if they are anything like Celestine they'll look amazing.

 

Hate to break it to you, but the Astartes are an all male force, and that's central to the background. Battle Brothers after all. I have 30 books on my shelf that drill that lore into place.