Thoughts on Female Space Marines (Ashes of Prospero)

[Race Bannon]

=][= Let's cool the fingers before we commit thought to the Internet. =][=

 

My turn.

 

Clocks moved, Primarchs returned, new marines, rewritten histories, and by the holy Emperor ... Squats ... are coming back.

 

Man, bring female Space Marines just to close the circle.

[Callan]

Lord knows many years of godawful cheesecake female marine projects have built an instinctive dislike of the concept in me but really, there is no reason you couldnt have female space marines whatsoever. Especially with the Primaris release, i think that may have been a missed opportunity there. Still, no reason they cant just start popping in some female heads in marine kits going forward, i dont think the models would need any other mods to them tbh given the amount of armour they wear  

 

 

 

 

Like or hate the Primaris, Cawl made the Space Marines more like the Primarchs by installing more organs.  They are not an argument in favor of doing whatever you want with the Space Marines.

 

Just before your post, I repeated this point that I'd made an hour ago.

[Stark]

Like or hate the Primaris, Cawl made the Space Marines more like the Primarchs by installing more organs.  They are not an argument in favor of doing whatever you want with the Space Marines.

 

Even if female candidates for Space Marines were viable and accepted, how would you even know?  Implanting kids with glands that take over their endocrine system that regulates their development is the literal first physical step.  IF you could get the female body to respond properly - XX and XY hormone sets tend toward greater or lesser responses to certain hormones - then you would have a hyper-muscular 600lbs murder machine in a year that doesn't look a thing like a woman, because the hormones made her hyper-masculine.  Primary sex characteristics would not progress through puberty.  Secondary sex characteristics would more resemble male ones.

 

Primaris & Cawl do make an argument to do whatever GW wants to do. Again, because science (plot). I don't say it's a good argument.

 

Actually, I agree a genetically altered being (male or female) wouldn't need to be comparable for a human - killing machines are as killing machines do. 

 

If sex was a needed characteristic, I could see it following the reasoning from the new Blade Runner movie. The villain wants to give replicants the ability to have offspring because it is a quicker multiplier to create more replicants - presuming they can breed faster than manufacturing them. The same could be applied to space marines. As the selection process culls so many in order to create just a few space marines, imagine if a genetic breeding program could do it faster. Same indoctrinal mind-training etc applies.  

 

Or maybe a variation of the Primaris process could be used on Sisters of Battle, thus invigorating a new range of models. It's not impossible. 

[Atrus]

Females in combat roles has been an issue in modern real world. Some countries have opened their infantry positions to females and one country i know has had hundreds of female applicants et after several years i can count on one hand the amount of females that have successfully completed the required training. Theyre are treated no differently than the males and do everything they do.

Now if femarines were properly and decently introduced more than likely using a convenient creepy crawly borderline heretek, id be okay with it if they were done in limited numbers to reflect the imperfect process of it all.

 

This would be conditional on geedubs release of SoB line updates. If femarines were done before SoB, i personally would be absolutely outraged. Would think of flying to geedub hq and smashing some heads in with my SoB carry case. Wouldnt do it though as thats over the top reaction for a game.

 

If Femarines were i troduced as the new SoB line, i would be absolutely devestated and down right angry. The SoB are no more a space marine than an inquisitor in power armour is or a rogue trader who has scored some power armour is.

SoB are unmodified humans that kiss :cuss: because of grit and faith. They dont need modifications and is not part of their identity.

Marines identity is in their modifications. Sisters is in their unmodification like guard.

 

TL;DR Would be okay with femarines only if they came after SoB update and was introduced well.

Ultimately, i wouldnt really want it because thats just the lore and the lore is the lore.

[Callan]

 

Like or hate the Primaris, Cawl made the Space Marines more like the Primarchs by installing more organs.  They are not an argument in favor of doing whatever you want with the Space Marines.

 

Even if female candidates for Space Marines were viable and accepted, how would you even know?  Implanting kids with glands that take over their endocrine system that regulates their development is the literal first physical step.  IF you could get the female body to respond properly - XX and XY hormone sets tend toward greater or lesser responses to certain hormones - then you would have a hyper-muscular 600lbs murder machine in a year that doesn't look a thing like a woman, because the hormones made her hyper-masculine.  Primary sex characteristics would not progress through puberty.  Secondary sex characteristics would more resemble male ones.

 

Primaris & Cawl do make an argument to do whatever GW wants to do. Again, because science (plot). I don't say it's a good argument.

 

Actually, I agree a genetically altered being (male or female) wouldn't need to be comparable for a human - killing machines are as killing machines do. 

 

If sex was a needed characteristic, I could see it following the reasoning from the new Blade Runner movie. The villain wants to give replicants the ability to have offspring because it is a quicker multiplier to have more replicants - presuming they can breed faster than manufacturing them. The same could be applied to space marines. As the selection process culls so many inn order to create just a few space marines, imagine if a genetic breeding program could do it faster. Same indoctrinal mind-training etc applies.  

 

Or maybe a variation of the Primaris process could be used on Sisters of Battle, thus invigorating a new range of models. It's not impossible. 

 

My personal theory of the Primaris' creation is actually compatible with the possibility of making it so rejection-proof and variance-tolerant that XX chromosomes could still work, now that I think of it.

 

Doesn't mean there would be a difference, because even if we allowed that, those little girls would grow up to be hyper-masculine dudes.  Skip putting lady-heads on.

 

Also, if GW does announce that, it's basically saying "We do not intend to go forward with the Sisters of Battle as its own distinct faction.  They're Space Marines now."

[Stark]

Doesn't mean there would be a difference, because even if we allowed that, those little girls would grow up to be hyper-masculine dudes.  Skip putting lady-heads on.

Also, if GW does announce that, it's basically saying "We do not intend to go forward with the Sisters of Battle as its own distinct faction.  They're Space Marines now."

 

 

If space marines were more androgynous in facial appearance, I would agree. They should look less then human. Killing machines, but not quite human.

As it is, space wolves can have bearded heads, so there can still be lady heads. Armor changes aren't needed, a uniform is a uniform. 

Yea, it would suck if they dissed a whole faction without incorporating or updating them somehow. 

 

Note to self: consider using all helmeted-heads - potential lore-changing problems solved!  

[TheOneTrueZon]

 

This is all starting to sound like Martin Luther and his letters to the Pope. 
 

What do you mean when you say this? Are you dreaming in the throes of a fever or are you laboring under a madness?

 

From Explanations of the Ninety-Five Theses, pg. 184 of Luther's Works, Vol. 31

 

http://ergofabulous.org/luther/?

 

Because this thread is going to get locked surely in the coming hours, as someone who runs female Black Templars, I fully expect GW to never, ever endorse or write in lore that will support Female Space Marines. 

 

But that will never, ever stop me from converting them. I make this game my own, and we all have our banners to bear. 

[Kinstryfe]

Keeping in mind that everything I say is strictly opinion...

 

I think there are two problems with introducing female Astartes. Keep in mind, I don't think that them existing is one of those problems. I think the problems are:

 

1. Thirty years of backstory have stated that it's a male-only procedure. There are plenty of ways to change this going forward, but I think that's the problem. It would only change it /going forward/. They would have to be very, very careful with how they addressed it, but it creates some possibly very offensive real world results. "I stopped playing 40k! I only play 30k now cuz they let women be space marines!" would be one of the least offensive. This is one odd situation where I think there's actually a debate to be had on whether giving some people a reason to be even less inclusive in the hobby may outweigh the benefit of attempting to change the story to fit. There's also the mindset of "historical" armies. How many heresy armies do we see? Unless the story became "we have always had female Marines", it would create unnecessary friction in the community. However, even if introducing female Marines is proven successful...

 

2) Visually Astartes armies are usually not armies of Space Marines, they are armies of Power Armour. Unless your army is mostly bare headed, gender isn't really represented. (Heck, my Ultras use 2 unhelmed models, and that's because they're Space Hulk Terminators and I didn't want to mess with the sculpts). This means that if they want Space Marines to represent as visually female, they fall into the trap of boob armour, having to overly sexualize the models just to get the gender across. Look at other female ranges GW have done and there's good indication that this is what would happen. Reaching out to be more inclusive should be about more than just New Power Armour For Her MkXI Armor, and that's a problem I don't believe they're ready to overcome.

 

To be honest, I do feel that female representation in the game and hobby is very important, but I think that Space Marines are not necessarily the easiest, or even most rewarding place to start. Warhammer is very much about excesses in theme. Blood Angels aren't just better trained in close combat, they're raging nutters. Space Wolves wear wolf helms and wolftail amulets while riding their thunderwolves, while wulfen howl in the distance like wet...well, leopards actually, but the rest is pretty wolfy. The knee jerk reaction then is to go all in on a solution. Guard regiments made entirely of amazonians, special all women chapters of Space Marines. Sisters of Battle, because their uteruses are a convenient loophole for the church. And while these aren't bad, per se, in a male dominated industry they tend to go from "inclusive representation" to "male fantasy" pretty quick. Interestingly, the Eldar ranges are at least better than average at addressing this, though they still fall prey to the boob armour problem. Their plastic kits tend to include parts for troops of both genders, so you can actually make an army that looks inclusive just from stock parts. Though, honestly, a Cadian with rebreather may as well be of either gender in full kit. Maybe GW just needs to be a little more conscience of what they write in the fluff, and be more mindful of writing a variety of characters. Add some new models that look like actual female soldiers, and not what they fantasize female soldiers as looking like, and they may be able to get some of the market share they're looking for?

[Callan]

 

Doesn't mean there would be a difference, because even if we allowed that, those little girls would grow up to be hyper-masculine dudes.  Skip putting lady-heads on.

Also, if GW does announce that, it's basically saying "We do not intend to go forward with the Sisters of Battle as its own distinct faction.  They're Space Marines now."

 

 

If space marines were more androgynous in facial appearance, I would agree. They should look less then human. Killing machines, but not quite human.

As it is, space wolves can have bearded heads, so there can still be lady heads. Armor changes aren't needed, a uniform is a uniform. 

Yea, it would suck if they dissed a whole faction without incorporating or updating them somehow. 

 

Note to self: consider using all helmeted-heads - potential lore-changing problems solved!  

 

If you fill an early-adolescent human being with massive amounts of growth hormones and androgens, they're going to have male secondary sex characteristics.  Not just beards, but face shape.  This isn't even a fantasy or sci-fi possibility.  It is a thing being done now.

[Stark]

If you fill an early-adolescent human being with massive amounts of growth hormones and androgens, they're going to have male secondary sex characteristics.  Not just beards, but face shape.  This isn't even a fantasy or sci-fi possibility.  It is a thing being done now.

 

That's only using 3K science. This is 40K science, right? What's a little thing like secondary sex characteristics? 

This is fantasy sci-fi. It's not reality. 37K years of probabilities shouldn't be dismissed with a simple wave of the hand.

[TiguriusX]

Female super soldiers are present in other games

 

Halo (male and female Spartans)

Battletech (male and female elementals)

 

When you use body augmentation to the degree space marines require the slight deviation in strength etc. between male and female is going to be minimal when yiu simply imagine what augmentation of the weakest potential candidate results in.

 

A "weak" space marine is still a super human

 

Lore quotes about the procedure not working are no longer a factor thanks to Cawl and his deus ex machina primaris experiments

 

Lore also said the success rate was low and it was addressed with hand wavium.

 

Finally, of all the space marine chapters a norse based one like the space wolves would recognize martial prowess regardless of gender. Shield maidens were a reality and women fought in norse culture. Historical Lagertha may be exaggerated in the show Vikings but things like that happened.

 

You had similar female warriors in britain where female celtic warriors were part of the forces giving the roman empire one of their greatest challengs.

 

Boudica was a major war leader.

 

When men were gone due to WWII in america women were thrust into factory roles and other jobs they had been banned from die to necessity.

 

This is the damn dark imperium and daemon primarchs are invading again. The imperium can use every able bodied warrior.

[Callan]

 

If you fill an early-adolescent human being with massive amounts of growth hormones and androgens, they're going to have male secondary sex characteristics.  Not just beards, but face shape.  This isn't even a fantasy or sci-fi possibility.  It is a thing being done now.

 

That's only using 3K science. This is 40K science, right? What's a little thing like secondary sex characteristics? 

This is fantasy sci-fi. It's not reality. 37K years of probabilities shouldn't be dismissed with a simple wave of the hand.

 

If I thought for a second that the Emperor would be at all interested in creating SexyMarines, I guess maybe he could include some sort of rebalancing effect... but BY THE THRONE, why would he?!  The process as we know it is designed to create a 600lbs slab of muscle, reinforced bone, and performance-enhancing organs.  This is the specific end result the Emperor desired in the creation of Space Marines.  Why would he create a prettier version?

[Callan]

Female super soldiers are present in other games

 

Halo (male and female Spartans)

Battletech (male and female elementals)

 

When you use body augmentation to the degree space marines require the slight deviation in strength etc. between male and female is going to be minimal when yiu simply imagine what augmentation of the weakest potential candidate results in.

 

A "weak" space marine is still a super human

 

Lore quotes about the procedure not working are no longer a factor thanks to Cawl and his deus ex machina primaris experiments

 

Lore also said the success rate was low and it was addressed with hand wavium.

 

Finally, of all the space marine chapters a norse based one like the space wolves would recognize martial prowess regardless of gender. Shield maidens were a reality and women fought in norse culture. Historical Lagertha may be exaggerated in the show Vikings but things like that happened.

 

You had similar female warriors in britain where female celtic warriors were part of the forces giving the roman empire one of their greatest challengs.

 

Boudica was a major war leader.

 

When men were gone due to WWII in america women were thrust into factory roles and other jobs they had been banned from die to necessity.

 

This is the damn dark imperium and daemon primarchs are invading again. The imperium can use every able bodied warrior.

You appear to be talking about the Imperial Guard.  In which case, I'm right there with you.  All-female Imperial Guard regiments are well-established.  The Sisters of Battle are pretty great too.

 

The Space Marines, specifically, are all male.  For biological reasons.  Even if the genetic limitations as explained to us were waived, the process as we know it would not create a super-woman.  It would create a super-transman.

[Stark]

Why would he create a prettier version?

 

Presentation? After 10K years on the Golden Throne, to paraphrase a quote from "Kill Bill":

"Because the Emperor's a very, very, very old man, and like all rotten bastards, when they become old, they get lonely."

[Callan]

 

Why would he create a prettier version?

 

Presentation? After 10K years on the Golden Throne, to paraphrase a quote from "Kill Bill":

"Because the Emperor's a very, very, very old man, and like all rotten bastards, when they become old, they get lonely."

 

Have you ever gotten the feeling that you're putting a lot of thought into a conversation that the other person isn't taking seriously?

[TiguriusX]

Adding extra organs like a 2nd heart or belchers gland..solidifying the rib cage so it protects and myriad other body augmentation items like primaris lacing of sinew with coil cables dont make a female a "trans"

[Callan]

Adding extra organs like a 2nd heart or belchers gland..solidifying the rib cage so it protects and myriad other body augmentation items like primaris lacing of sinew with coil cables dont make a female a "trans"

Can you name for me the first three organs implanted in the process?  There's a treat hidden in that lore.  See if you can find it!

[Stark]

Have you ever gotten the feeling that you're putting a lot of thought into a conversation that the other person isn't taking seriously?

 

Usually when that happens, I ask myself if I'm taking it too seriously. 

Regarding the topic "thoughts on female space marines", in fantasy sci-fi anything goes, right?

Future science can be speculative, fantasy science doubly so. 

There can be no expert final analysis. 

[TiguriusX]

Callan if you have a point make it. If you want to discuss a specific gland and hidden lore feel free to share.

[Beta galactosidase]

The only thing that women have is the hands they do work with, just like everyone else. Women are killed in war all the time, their bodies die just like yours do, there is no such thing as a non combatant, because anyone can be bombed or shot.

 

There's a GW employee who says the female space adventurers in PA were meant to be distributed as marines but shop owners declined to take them. It wasn't an effort at inclusivity, it was one of many products that got tossed off and didn't go very far.

 

 

> Also, why aren't the same people arguing for Brothers of Battle!?

 

You can't really be asking this in good faith.

 

 

 

 

 

Why not? We seem to be ignoring past lore and the setting for the sake of inclusion.

 

I want Brothers of Battle and Brothers of Silence!

 

In the conditions of many humans in the Imperium, having segregated units of various kinds is necessary for the members of the units. For example, if you own a business and need access to municipal resources like roads and local labor, it's very convenient if there is a class of people or a community that is disenfranchised or marginalized, because you can put your business their and if you need to create heavy metals waste or localized air pollution, or just traffic and bad smells, they won't be able to do anything about it. In the case of women, when someone goes to work, they have to already have been fed and clothed, and if they have to take care of their sick kids, they aren't at work. So it is convenient for private business that there are women who do most of the domestic work in a household, even if they are wage earners in addition to that. This means that much of the labor required for a business owner to maintain their workforce is fine for free, at no cost to the business. It means that they can extract maximum time from the male class that does less domestic work, men, and male workers have to live with the threat of female workers being brought into their field, increasing the labor pool and lowering wages.

 

The famous YPJ has to be all female because of these conditions. If the PYD is so egalitarian, why do they need to have all women-units, why do they need dual, specifically women's appointments to every government post? Well they are coming out of a patronage-based privately held society and it's a corrective. There has to be an organization where women always make promotion decisions for women, or the gendered relations of the previous society will persist. At some point, generationally, it's possible orgs like the YPG/YPJ could be fully desegregated, but not without this work done beforehand.

 

So for mortal humans in the Imperium because they seem to live in this kind of society, sort of mercantilist and feudal, that isn't too different from western finance capitalism or the patronage economies found in parts of Kurdistan, there have to be women's only units.

 

For marines, whether they are female or not, these social relations don't exist. Mortal humans have jobs they can be fired from, and families to start and raise. A marine is always a marine, the existence of a female marine isn't

 

 

This is especially true because they weren't founded to make social change, they are a monastic order. They were founded as a monastic order. More than marines or guard, they exist as a spiritual exercise for the sisters. The existence of the guard and the marines was commissioned by the wider society, but on San Leor they essentially formed as a commune for the benefit of the commune members. They develop practical skills as part of their devotions, and they can use them to do their God Emperor's work, or sell their skills to the ministorum to get armament and patronage.

 

 

 

 

There has never been a good reason not to have Female Marines. There are some awful reasons to ask for them though.

 

Personally, my rationale has always been "I like Female Marines because the idea of an 8' tall lunatic woman with a tank-exploding hammer is pretty cool."

 

If your reason is any more political than that, you need to take a long walk through a short minefield.

There's something you might imply, when you say political, like having a south Asian woman run a corrupt corporation doesn't make it ok, and a gay trans man ordering civilian killings is still murder. That's pretty bad politics.

 

On the other hand there is a very good "political" reason for female marines is eliminating weird aesthetic sensationalization of women doing a thing being specifically exciting.

[Callan]

Callan if you have a point make it. If you want to discuss a specific gland and hidden lore feel free to share.

First is the secondary heart.  Nothing particularly interesting there.  Next is the ossmodula and the biscopia.  A complete overhaul of the endocrine system that floods the initiate with growth hormones, androgens, and a host of other things that cause the bones and muscles to grow into a giant, grotesquely over-muscled freak.  In addition to the gene therapy and nanobots, of course.  IF you could get this process to take on a female, this part would make sure that they're going to be going through male puberty... cubed.

[Stark]

There's a GW employee who says the female space adventurers in PA were meant to be distributed as marines but shop owners declined to take them. It wasn't an effort at inclusivity, it was one of many products that got tossed off and didn't go very far.

 

So it may be possible that GW attempt a change now to expand their market?

 

Business & Background reasons may be tricky but not impossible to align. 

 

This is all speculative, right? Real science can't speak with any certainty, but imagination can.

 

This is a dark dystopic universe with so much knowledge that seems to be lost yet still is far superior at the same time. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

You can’t make in universe arguments against female marines. Apparently - this is called the Thermian Argument and the guys who run Feminist40k break down why it’s not a valid counter point.

 

 

I think it’s important to reiterate, in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female marines. It’s a narrative choice.

Wait - in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female Space Marines?  Are there wars in space now, for which we require actual Space Marines?  I know I haven't been following the news that closely, but it's been an eventful few weeks, apparently...

 

Unless you're saying that in the modern day, there is no reason not to have female Space Marines in this particular artistic work.  However, that presupposes that all artistic work is advancing toward a particular state, and it is no longer appropriate to not deviate from that state in a particular way.  I do not agree.

 

 

 

Especially, for this topic, its very important you read exactly what I said -  exactly as I typed it. Don't infer anything you think I might be trying to say. I'm saying everything I'm trying to say. In 40k, female marines are a narrative choice. Its binary, and right now the switch is flipped off. It can be switched on easily, with only the publishing of a single work. Obviously, this has nothing to do with actual marines, and I havent made any references to real life military forces. Thats off topic, and Im consciously being on topic like a laser beam.

[Callan]

 

There's a GW employee who says the female space adventurers in PA were meant to be distributed as marines but shop owners declined to take them. It wasn't an effort at inclusivity, it was one of many products that got tossed off and didn't go very far.

 

So it may be possible that GW attempt a change now to expand their market?

 

Business & Background reasons may be tricky but not impossible to align. 

 

This is all speculative, right? Real science can't speak with any certainty, but imagination can.

 

This is a dark dystopic universe with so much knowledge that seems to be lost yet still is far superior at the same time. 

 

Again, show me a market that MIGHT be interested in Warhammer 40k, but what's keeping them from being interested is a lack, specifically, of female Space Marines.

 

I don't think GW's marketing research is going to conclude that the dozens of dollars in extra sales is worth their fans freaking out about the lore problems, the expense of new model molds, etc.

[Callan]

 

 

You can’t make in universe arguments against female marines. Apparently - this is called the Thermian Argument and the guys who run Feminist40k break down why it’s not a valid counter point.

 

 

I think it’s important to reiterate, in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female marines. It’s a narrative choice.

Wait - in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female Space Marines?  Are there wars in space now, for which we require actual Space Marines?  I know I haven't been following the news that closely, but it's been an eventful few weeks, apparently...

 

Unless you're saying that in the modern day, there is no reason not to have female Space Marines in this particular artistic work.  However, that presupposes that all artistic work is advancing toward a particular state, and it is no longer appropriate to not deviate from that state in a particular way.  I do not agree.

 

 

 

Especially, for this topic, its very important you read exactly what I said -  exactly as I typed it. Don't infer anything you think I might be trying to say. I'm saying everything I'm trying to say. In 40k, female marines are a narrative choice. Its binary, and right now the switch is flipped off. It can be switched on easily, with only the publishing of a single work. Obviously, this has nothing to do with actual marines, and I havent made any references to real life military forces. Thats off topic, and Im consciously being on topic like a laser beam.

 

That's what I did.  You said that there's no reason why we shouldn't have female Space Marines in today's world.  I checked the headlines, but didn't see "interstellar war" ANYWHERE.  The news cycle is WEIRD.  Unless you're not being as precise with your language as you think you are.  Again.

 

If you view established lore in an established property as something that you can easily reverse with no consideration to the consequences...

 

...

 

Do you work at Games Workshop headquarters?