Thoughts on Female Space Marines (Ashes of Prospero)

[Yodhrin]

Have any of you done character studies, or design studies on how to draw, show gender?

 

These are pretty basic things you pick up in the first year of any design college.

 

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off topic

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The reality of SoB design more than likely boils down to how to make a design and have it be identifiable as a female in 28mm scale in the 80 when the technology for miniatures was in its infancy0

as a result you have to over exaggerate features to make models recognizable. Faces are hard, especially attempting to differentiate faces of the opposite gender, especially at that scale, thats why all the models have long hair, but if hte models only had long hair then what would be the difference between a male figure with long hair to a passerby? not much, therefore you have to exaggerate the other features of the female model, thats more than likly why SoB are BDSM leather clad inspired, high heels, breast plates that show curvature, thigh high boots and armor.

 

Well technology has advanced quite a bit, the Escher models have shown how far GW has come, and frankly I hope GW step it up with the next generation of SoB models. With the advancement of tech you can model proportions better, and make faces more feminine, more identifiable.

 

SoB originaly design was more than likely heavily influenced by the technology available.

 

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on topic

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after cawl and his alterations, creations of Primaris, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a splash of hints that maybe female marines are possible.

 

and maybe GW will merge the idea of a female marine with future sisters release, modernize the armor of the SoB as the modernized the vehicles and equipment of the spacemarines.

 

I have, actually. I've also studied history and sociology a fair bit, albeit as an amateur, which I why I can differentiate between exaggerating the physical sexual characteristics of a subject to titilate, and for other reasons. Sisters fall into the same category as codpieces and ceremonial armour with sculpted musculature, their design is meant to convey martial prowess in an unequivocally female way in the same manner those things are meant to do so in a male way, and in that context they are a subversion of the association of martial prowess and maleness. Now, if you want to take a pop at the extremely questionable Repentia models I will be right there with you, but standard Sisters are no more sexualised than Blood Angels are sexualised.

 

Now I don't doubt that some people in the studio will no doubt be pushing for female Marines and will use the Mechanicus' new Marty Stu or something similar as the reason if they did, but if they do honestly I would prefer they do actual female Marines than try to merge that idea with the Sisters - doing so actively diminishes the Sisters, the implication that faith, dedication, training, and armament wasn't enough to make them formidable, they needed genetic enhancements too to keep up with "the boys".

[Wargamer]

Hold up. A big Sisters release might be around the corner and if they are anything like Celestine they'll look amazing.

 

Hate to break it to you, but the Astartes are an all male force, and that's central to the background. Battle Brothers after all. I have 30 books on my shelf that drill that lore into place.

Nope. That's not central to the faction. The only thing central to Space Marines is the fact they are superhuman soldiers in power armour. Everything else is optional. They can be orthodox or radical, pure or mutated, pious or monstrous. They can be loyal, traitor, renegade or excommunicated, rightly or wrongly. They can be aggressive or defensive, secretive or brazen, lauded as heroes or forgotten by the Imperium. They can be exemplars or they can be in open war with the other branches of the Imperium. They can be social or solitary, they can abandon their humanity or fight to retain it.

 

I can name you canon Chapters that exemplify any of these traits. They are all equally Space Marines.

 

You're trying to argue all Marines are Girlyman Smurfs. They aren't, and haven't been for a long, long time.

[Yodhrin]

 

You can't just assert something, and you don't get to run away from your own logic the moment it's turned around on you. Address the points, substantively, or concede them.

My logic is consistent. Sisters have a rigid theme that cannot deviate from "Bolter bitches" anymore than Banshees can deviate from "Space Elves with power swords who scream at people".

 

Marines are not bound by these limitations. And yes, popularity matters - the reason people care is because they actually play the armies they're talking about! Sisters are a failed range in part because of their limited appeal, just like how a majority of Guard players who asked for plastic Guard were disappointed with Catachans, but were far more welcoming of plastic Cadians.

 

I've no interest in male Sisters because being an all female force is central to their background, just as being all male is central to the Vostroyan Firstborn. However, there is a difference between saying that there shouldn't be female Vostroyans, and saying there shouldn't be female Guard.

 

You can justify any given Chapter not having female Marines, but the argument against the FACTION not having female members doesn't hold up.

 

 

Your logic is more holey than a tin of spaghetti hoops my man. I literally just gave you half a dozen examples of Sisters archetypes that don't even come within shouting distance of "bolter bitches" as you so inadvisably put it, but you just skate gleefully past that because it doesn't support your assertions. I just can't get over how you can sit there in all seriousness and argue that a faction comprising teachers, linguists, medical practitioners, relic hunters, torturers, bodyguards, and yes power armoured warriors has a single rigid theme that can never be deviated from, yet a faction that consists of "power armoured guys with bolters, but angry/wolfy/emo/monkish/knighty/rebely delete as appropriate" is so staggering in its variety and complexity that it merits being elevated from subfaction to race.

[Callan]

Wargamer, there are no female Space Marines because the gene-seed is a pre-packaged genetic modification procedure that is incompatible with XX chromosomes.  That has been true since the beginning.  If you're not interested in men in the Sisters of Battle or Silence because being all-female is part of their culture, why should there be female Space Marines, when being all-male is part of their biology?

[Ishagu]

 

Hold up. A big Sisters release might be around the corner and if they are anything like Celestine they'll look amazing.

 

Hate to break it to you, but the Astartes are an all male force, and that's central to the background. Battle Brothers after all. I have 30 books on my shelf that drill that lore into place.

Nope. That's not central to the faction. The only thing central to Space Marines is the fact they are superhuman soldiers in power armour. Everything else is optional. They can be orthodox or radical, pure or mutated, pious or monstrous. They can be loyal, traitor, renegade or excommunicated, rightly or wrongly. They can be aggressive or defensive, secretive or brazen, lauded as heroes or forgotten by the Imperium. They can be exemplars or they can be in open war with the other branches of the Imperium. They can be social or solitary, they can abandon their humanity or fight to retain it.

 

I can name you canon Chapters that exemplify any of these traits. They are all equally Space Marines.

 

You're trying to argue all Marines are Girlyman Smurfs. They aren't, and haven't been for a long, long time.

Your understanding of the lore is clearly minimal and I feel your input on this subject should stop here. It's frankly offensive how much you've ignored to try to make an argument.

 

Also terms like "bolter :cuss " are potentially upsetting to some. I missed your use of the term initially but disapprove.

[Wargamer]

Wargamer, there are no female Space Marines because the gene-seed is a pre-packaged genetic modification procedure that is incompatible with XX chromosomes. That has been true since the beginning. If you're not interested in men in the Sisters of Battle or Silence because being all-female is part of their culture, why should there be female Space Marines, when being all-male is part of their biology?

Because what you're quoting is a post-hoc justification. The traditional argument was that Space Marines required male hormones and tissues, which makes as much sense as their bolt guns using water as an armour piercing core.

 

The original Marines were very much inspired by the gung-ho action heroes taken to a darker place, but that vanished fast.

 

There is nothing fundamental to the Astartes that requires them to be male. There's plenty of compelling arguments why female Marines would be less common, or why certain Chapter Cults would oppose them, but especially now Mary Sue is running the Mechanicus you might as well be arguing Primaris can't exist.

[Callan]

So your argument to counter me is to point out that they aren't just Nuns with Guns by listing the other things they do... All of which are traditionally associated with monastic orders.

 

Okay, I stand corrected - sisters are just plain NUNS, and some of them have Guns. Big :cussing difference.

They're an order of nuns MILITANT, which is a pretty huge thing.

 

Not that this matters, because the topic is Space Marines, and what they are.  They are GENETICALLY ENHANCED using PRE-PACKAGED GENETIC MATERIAL that transform the subject into ever-closer genetic matches to their MALE lab-grown progenitors.  This has always meant that females were not genetically compatible with the process.

 

Of course, your rationale for why the various all-female factions are okay, because history, can be made to support Space Marines being all-male.  Just swap out the nouns.  Except instead of history and culture, this is biology.

[Yodhrin]

So your argument to counter me is to point out that they aren't just Nuns with Guns by listing the other things they do... All of which are traditionally associated with monastic orders.

 

Okay, I stand corrected - sisters are just plain NUNS, and some of them have Guns. Big :cussing difference.

 

Yeah OK man, I think the time has come to part ways on this one. I do not accept your arguments as valid, I've given my reasons why and do not feel you've offered any substantive rebuttal of them, and you're evidently not interested, so we'll leave it there.

[Ishagu]

Hey Wargamer, here is a passage for you that took all of 1 second for me to find.

 

"Recruits must be fairly young, because implants often do not become fully functional if the recipient has reached a certain level of physical maturity. They must be male because the zygotes are keyed to male hormones and tissue types. Only a small percentage of people are compatible to receive the implants and hypno-suggestion to turn them into Marines. Before the process of implantation begins the potential recruit receives tissue compatibility tests and psychological screening. If the testing proves successful the recruit becomes a neophyte. After the organ implantation process he becomes an initiate."

[Karack Blackstone]

Disagreement is a sure sign of a healthy debate, however, name slinging and calling people to stop posting I think is a little further than where this forum attempts to conduct itself.

 

Sisters have many different Orders, and are all under the Adepta Sororitas; the Adeptus Astartes have just as many Chapters, which vary in many ways as well. Factually, the intellectual investment as far as differences between SM Chapters is far more evident than for the Sororitas Orders.

 

Fluff determines facts, and facts inform debates, such as this one; GW controls the pen of the fluff, therefore the facts that end up defining the setting are theirs to determine.

[Ishagu]

Here's a pretty iconic quote and established, iron clad piece of lore:

 

"They shall be my finest warriors, these men who give of themselves to me. Like clay I shall mould them and in the furnace of war I shall forge them. They shall be of iron will and steely sinew. In great armour I shall clad them and with the mightiest weapons shall they be armed. They will be untouched by plague or disease; no sickness shall blight them. They shall have such tactics, strategies and machines that no foe will best them in battle. They are my bulwark against the Terror. They are the Defenders of Humanity. They are my Space Marines...and they shall know no fear."

[Yodhrin]

Disagreement is a sure sign of a healthy debate, however, name slinging and calling people to stop posting I think is a little further than where this forum attempts to conduct itself.

 

Sisters have many different Orders, and are all under the Adepta Sororitas; the Adeptus Astartes have just as many Chapters, which vary in many ways as well. Factually, the intellectual investment as far as differences between SM Chapters is far more evident than for the Sororitas Orders.

 

Fluff determines facts, and facts inform debates, such as this one; GW controls the pen of the fluff, therefore the facts that end up defining the setting are theirs to determine.

 

I'm sorry but again, I just can't understand this assertion - in what way are Space Marines with a wolf-come-viking theme and Space Marines with a secretive monks theme more different than "nuns with guns" and "female Grand Viziers-come-genealogists-come tutors" or "benevolent nurse-nuns-come-torturers"? The former are flavours, the latter are entirely different dishes.

[Callan]

 

Wargamer, there are no female Space Marines because the gene-seed is a pre-packaged genetic modification procedure that is incompatible with XX chromosomes. That has been true since the beginning. If you're not interested in men in the Sisters of Battle or Silence because being all-female is part of their culture, why should there be female Space Marines, when being all-male is part of their biology?

Because what you're quoting is a post-hoc justification. The traditional argument was that Space Marines required male hormones and tissues, which makes as much sense as their bolt guns using water as an armour piercing core.

 

The original Marines were very much inspired by the gung-ho action heroes taken to a darker place, but that vanished fast.

 

There is nothing fundamental to the Astartes that requires them to be male. There's plenty of compelling arguments why female Marines would be less common, or why certain Chapter Cults would oppose them, but especially now Mary Sue is running the Mechanicus you might as well be arguing Primaris can't exist.

 

How would you go about making a pre-packaged genetic modification system, contained in implanted organs, that had a great enough tolerance for genetic variation that the recipient could have either an XX or an XY chromosome and it doesn't matter?

 

I mean, I couldn't design one either way, but if you're insisting that there's NO reason, then you must have a better handle on the process than I do.  Please, enlighten me.

 

Whatever your opinion of the Primaris project, Cawl made his Space Marines more like the Primarchs, through the implantation of additional organs.  How would you go about making them less like the Primarchs, as you demand?

[Ishagu]

I've just had a little browse. I can literally drown this topic in sourced quotes and passages that strictly outline that all Space marines are and must be male.

 

Here's an interesting one:

 

"Trying to implant a woman with Space Marine gene-seed would result only in a painful, agonising death."

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Disagreement is a sure sign of a healthy debate, however, name slinging and calling people to stop posting I think is a little further than where this forum attempts to conduct itself.

 

Sisters have many different Orders, and are all under the Adepta Sororitas; the Adeptus Astartes have just as many Chapters, which vary in many ways as well. Factually, the intellectual investment as far as differences between SM Chapters is far more evident than for the Sororitas Orders.

 

Fluff determines facts, and facts inform debates, such as this one; GW controls the pen of the fluff, therefore the facts that end up defining the setting are theirs to determine.

 

I'm sorry but again, I just can't understand this assertion - in what way are Space Marines with a wolf-come-viking theme and Space Marines with a secretive monks theme more different than "nuns with guns" and "female Grand Viziers-come-genealogists" or "benevolent nurse-nuns-come-torturers"? The former are flavours, the latter are entirely different dishes.

 

 

Meta level concept, in a possibly too hard to lay out a clear perspective without providing one, so, here goes an attempt at context.

 

Space Marines wear power armor.

Space Marines have different fighting styles, each of which is akin to a warrior culture of exemplary skill of old, from across the world.

Space Marines as Chapters cling to their defining warrior culture pretty heavily.

Space Marines are, as a whole, under the umbrella of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

Sisters of Battle wear power armor.

Sisters of Battle have different orders that do different things; while this difference is greater than just the militant orders, I meant to include that distinction, and forgot it.

Sisters of Battle as Orders all have their Faith to define them; not that it is absent, however, more of the how the Faith of each Sister as an Order is manifested as martial prowess and focus could only help the overall faction of armies possible.

Sisters of Battle, as a whole, are Adepta Sororitas.

[Wargamer]

 

How would you go about making a pre-packaged genetic modification system, contained in implanted organs, that had a great enough tolerance for genetic variation that the recipient could have either an XX or an XY chromosome and it doesn't matter?

What a :cussing stupid statement... How could we POSSIBLY invent a FICTIONAL system for creating supersoldiers in a setting where Magic is real if we don't make it exclusive to men!?

 

These gene seeds have enough tolerance built in that they work equally well on populations ten thousand years and ten thousand lightyears separated from each other. I'm pretty damn sure that's a much bigger suspension of disbelief than is required to assume the geneseed simply keys to elements of the human body that are found in both sexes.

[Ishagu]

OK, you're starting to sound like your inclusion agenda is coming ahead of the setting.

 

Need I remind you this is a fictional and dystopian future? The Imperium of Man doesn't care about what's fair. Don't inject real world agendas into the setting if it's done at the expense of it's integrity.

[Callan]

 

What a :cussing stupid statement... How could we POSSIBLY invent a FICTIONAL system for creating supersoldiers in a setting where Magic is real if we don't make it exclusive to men!?

 

These gene seeds have enough tolerance built in that they work equally well on populations ten thousand years and ten thousand lightyears separated from each other. I'm pretty damn sure that's a much bigger suspension of disbelief than is required to assume the geneseed simply keys to elements of the human body that are found in both sexes.

 

Apparently the Emperor felt differently.  Are you a better genetic engineer than the Emperor?

 

You're making assertions that are clearly and repeatedly in contradiction with the canon, and when such contradictions are pointed out, you insist that it's the canon, not you, that is wrong.  That being the case, there can be no productive discussion.  Good day.

[Marshal Rohr]

You can’t make in universe arguments against female marines. Apparently - this is called the Thermian Argument and the guys who run Feminist40k break down why it’s not a valid counter point.

 

 

I think it’s important to reiterate, in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female marines. It’s a narrative choice.

[Stark]

If lore is basically the pivotal factor in keeping female space marines from ever existing, because SCIENCE can always make anything new - even in a sci-fi dystopic future, what's to stop GW from writing in some sort of "reality-temporal bomb" disrupting history?

 

Yes, it sounds silly and disrespectful of a franchise - but it wouldn't be the first time a company does something outside of the comfort zone. Personally, I love comic books and retcons are a fact of life - don't get me wrong, I don't like them because I like a certain amount of continuity in my fiction. Still, I don't get to decide it.

 

From what I've read hereabouts, Primaris made the sky fall and crushed regular space marines. After that, I gather it's "anything goes". 

 

As long as it doesn't change the way the game itself is played, how can it hurt?

And, for the record, I don't have a problem with "Brothers of Battle", Femcrons, Tauettes, or any other variable. If it can be done with one faction, why not all? 

 

If the game tells me I have to negotiate peace treaties and sanctions and other political gobbity-gook, I'll be out of it.

So long as there is grim dark war, then it's fine by me. 

[Callan]

You can’t make in universe arguments against female marines. Apparently - this is called the Thermian Argument and the guys who run Feminist40k break down why it’s not a valid counter point.

 

 

I think it’s important to reiterate, in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female marines. It’s a narrative choice.

Wait - in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female Space Marines?  Are there wars in space now, for which we require actual Space Marines?  I know I haven't been following the news that closely, but it's been an eventful few weeks, apparently...

 

Unless you're saying that in the modern day, there is no reason not to have female Space Marines in this particular artistic work.  However, that presupposes that all artistic work is advancing toward a particular state, and it is no longer appropriate to not deviate from that state in a particular way.  I do not agree.

[Guest Triszin]

Well, I'd put up that since cawl modified the process created new organs and purified things the old more isn't valid with primaris. Until new lore with primaris implants state it its up in the air.

 

Side note, remember everyone should stay calm, think about your responses don't just rapid fire, or use blanket terms to dismiss or move the goal posts

[Brother Lunkhead]

You cannot compare Marines to Sisters anymore than you can compare Marines to the Mordian Iron Guard. The former has broad rules but a great deal of flexibility in application - the latter has a well-defined and rigidly enforced motif.

 

Sisters are always Nuns with Guns, but Space Marines can be Monks with Guns, Crusaders in Space, Romans in Space, Mongols in Space, Space Vikings, stealthy bastards, heavily mutated monsters, technologically advanced future-men, backwards looking techno-barbarians and anything else in between.

 

Or to put it another way - there is no flavour of Custodes that are NOT the Emperor's personal guard. They might guard his throne, his dungeons, his palace or his ruined works, but they are all his guard. There are no Adeptus Custodes pulling humanitarian duties on the Eastern Fringe.

 

This is why Marines are a "race", but Sisters, Custodians and the like are not.

 

 

There are far more Sisters of Battle, with multiple sub factions of different Sisterhoods, then there are Space Marines.

 

Please convince me that diluting their great lore so I can have Brothers of Battle is a good idea.

 

*Edit*

 

You can totally, 100% compare them lol. Both wear power armour and are equipped with bolters.

Guard are far more different and separate from either.

 

I must give this one to Ishagu...... Yes, Sisters of Battle are Nuns with Guns, but ALL Space Marines are Monks with Guns.......Roman Monks, Viking Monks, Mongolian Monks, Ninja Monks, on and on...... Space Marines are just different orders of monks, each with it's own history, traditions, and heraldry; much like the Templars, the Hospitallers, the Teutonic, or even the Shaolin. The only reason the Adepta Sororitas lacks this kind of diversity is because GW has done virtually nothing with them for over a decade, which is a great shame. You can't tell me that in almost 10 millennia of Imperial history that the Sisters of Battle have not diversified based on mission, local culture, etc. The 40k gaming community just needs to show that there is enough demand for GW to invest in this kind of expansion.

 

Another thing to consider is that if GW does invest in Female Space Marines you can kiss the Sisters of Battle good bye. This will show GW that there really is no demand for new and improved SoB's. So, they might as well have them all gobbled up in the next Tyranid invasion ( you know.... like the Squats) and discontinue the line.

 

But really this isn't about diversity at all, is it? This is about gamers who want to play Space Wolves..... only they want to play Female Space Wolves. See?...... it really is only about inclusion after all. 

 

Now, I've had this discussion with players and game shop owners over the years. Players want FSM's and game shop owners want to sell them FSM's. These players don't give a fig about SoB or diversity in the 40K universe. They want FSM's. If GW decides this is the way to go it's probably not going to be the end of the world for me.... but it will be the end of the Sisters of Battle and THAT brothers and sisters is NOT diversity.

[Callan]

If lore is basically the pivotal factor in keeping female space marines from ever existing, because SCIENCE can always make anything new - even in a sci-fi dystopic future, what's to stop GW from writing in some sort of "reality-temporal bomb" disrupting history? Yes, it sounds silly and disrespectful of a franchise - but it wouldn't be the first time a company does something outside of the comfort zone. Personally, I love comic books and retcons are a fact of life - don't get me wrong, I don't like them because I like a certain amount of continuity in my fiction. Still, I don't get to decide it.

 

From what I've read hereabouts, Primaris made the sky fall and crushed regular space marines. After that, I gather it's "anything goes". 

 

As long as it doesn't change the way the game itself is played, how can it hurt? If the game tells me I have to negotiate peace treaties and sanctions and other political gobbity-gook, I'll be out of it. If there is grim dark war, then it's fine by me. 

Like or hate the Primaris, Cawl made the Space Marines more like the Primarchs by installing more organs.  They are not an argument in favor of doing whatever you want with the Space Marines.

 

Even if female candidates for Space Marines were viable and accepted, how would you even know?  Implanting kids with glands that take over their endocrine system that regulates their development is the literal first physical step.  IF you could get the female body to respond properly - XX and XY hormone sets tend toward greater or lesser responses to certain hormones - then you would have a hyper-muscular 600lbs murder machine in a year that doesn't look a thing like a woman, because the hormones made her hyper-masculine.  Primary sex characteristics would not progress through puberty.  Secondary sex characteristics would more resemble male ones.

[Noserenda]

Lord knows many years of godawful cheesecake female marine projects have built an instinctive dislike of the concept in me but really, there is no reason you couldnt have female space marines whatsoever. Especially with the Primaris release, i think that may have been a missed opportunity there. Still, no reason they cant just start popping in some female heads in marine kits going forward, i dont think the models would need any other mods to them tbh given the amount of armour they wear :D 

Sisters of battle i think hit a different niche, much as their surface details are the same they are at least as different from Marines as Grey knights, hell even Custodes, are. They get their power from faith rather than genetic engineering, makes them work a bit differently :) 

That said, whilst the I think the SoB work fine id probably look at some male Sisters of Silence, i mean now they havent revealed they are clones or something (I was damn sure they were based on their early art!) it might make sense to see some given how insanely limited their recruitment pool is. No need for a name change even, i think male Sisters would be super 40k :D