Thoughts on Female Space Marines (Ashes of Prospero)

[Bryan Blaire]

Can you name for me the first three organs implanted in the process? There's a treat hidden in that lore. See if you can find it!

Sure - the Secondary Heart (self-explanatory), the Ossmodula/Ironheart (epiphiseal fusion modification - bones will grow longer and larger, and ossification modification - bones become more durable thanks to ceramic-based chemicals being absorbed into the bone and ribs become an interlaced bone plate set), and the Biscopea/Forge of Strength (stimulation of muscle growth).

 

None of those affect sexual presentation.

 

What affects sexual presentation is that all the alterations typically take place before puberty, before secondary sex characteristics begin to develop.

 

Here's the fun part about all the hormone arguments - nothing in the current lore actually says WHAT the hormones are. They could be any made up thing GW wants them to be and no one would have a leg to stand on argument-wise. The Marine organs already include bio-magic operating material, so if GW were to say "The hormones don't affect sexual presentation at all, they specifically work around it, they do exactly what is written and no more, and you've just never seen Marines that present as the female sex is because there's never been a successful female implantation due to any number of reasons we made up", then there is absolutely nothing to be said.

 

GW made up Space Marines/Adeptus Astartes, they aren't real creatures, they aren't built out of real genetic principals or engineering, some of the organs don't even follow actual biological understanding. There's absolutely no reason to keep harping on real world science as if it matters in the slightest to a made up entity.

 

Personally, I don't have a reason or want for female Space Marines, but neither did I have a want for Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Sisters of Battle, backwater Imperial Guard, an "all female" Eldar combat aspect, or anything else I don't actually play or don't think should be an army. That doesn't mean GW can't write a reason for those things (and clearly has).

 

Arguing that female Space Marines shouldn't exist in any capacity other than "that wasn't what the lore used to say" is down right goofy, as is arguing that they should exist for any other reason than "people now think they should/could". GW will decide whether they do exist or not - the company makes all this up.

[Stark]

Again, show me a market that MIGHT be interested in Warhammer 40k, but what's keeping them from being interested is a lack, specifically, of female Space Marines.

I don't think GW's marketing research is going to conclude that the dozens of dollars in extra sales is worth their fans freaking out about the lore problems, the expense of new model molds, etc.

 

I don't have to show you a market, nor could I because I'm not a part of GW's team. Sure, we could speculate what keeps them from doing it - if you have insider knowledge that specifically relates to this, that's great for you.

 

This is all speculation, right? How can it not be? None of us can claim, business wise or 40K lore wise, what may happen.

 

It's all playing at the world. 

[TiguriusX]

 

Callan if you have a point make it. If you want to discuss a specific gland and hidden lore feel free to share.

First is the secondary heart.  Nothing particularly interesting there.  Next is the ossmodula and the biscopia.  A complete overhaul of the endocrine system that floods the initiate with growth hormones, androgens, and a host of other things that cause the bones and muscles to grow into a giant, grotesquely over-muscled freak.  In addition to the gene therapy and nanobots, of course.  IF you could get this process to take on a female, this part would make sure that they're going to be going through male puberty... cubed.

 

 

The 2nd and 3rd implants are intended to stimulate growth hormone to develop the muscle and skeletal system.

 

Women have pituitary glands and produce human growth hormone as well as testosterone.

 

Women are able to develop muscle strength without becoming grotesque over muscled freaks (olympic volleyball players, track athletes and swimmers are usually considered fit and attractive).  

 

The "fluff" of the game doesn't accurately reflect science when creating a super human.  If you flooded a male with all those overhauls they would also be roided out freaks.  Excess testosterone the way you are describing would result in a similarly flawed male.

 

The space marines don't have baldness and insane aggression levels as soon as they transform or all speak like gravelly christian bales due to voice deepening which are all common testosterone  abuse side effects.

 

There is a level of acceptance you have to have with the sci-fi aspect of creating a super human marine.  If you can nod and accept it for one procedure it seems inappropriate to require strict adherence to science for another procedure.

 

Cawl presents you hand wavium.  Endocrine issues resolved.  Acceptance rates similar to male recruits. 

 

Is that your main objection?  The reality of a sci fi idea is a bridge too far for you?

[Callan]

 

Can you name for me the first three organs implanted in the process?  There's a treat hidden in that lore.  See if you can find it!

Sure - the Secondary Heart (self-explanatory), the Ossmodula/Ironheart (epiphiseal fusion modification - bones will grow longer and larger, and ossification modification - bones become more durable thanks to ceramic-based chemicals being absorbed into the bone and ribs become an interlaced bone plate set), and the Biscopea/Forge of Strength (stimulation of muscle growth).

 

None of those affect sexual presentation.

 

What affects sexual presentation is that all the alterations typically take place before puberty, before secondary sex characteristics begin to develop.

There are lots and lots of details to the latter two that you're missing.  They are, as I mentioned, a complete overhaul to the endocrine system that affects the development of the child into a hulking brute of a man.  The biscopea specifically regulates the hormones to cause this.  Without this enhancement, a boy will not grow into the behemoth that is a Space Marine.  With that enhancement, a girl - on the miracle that she isn't killed by it - WILL.  There's not a lot of room for estrogen and related compounds in there.

 

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines.  However, the lore is there.  If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

[Bryan Blaire]

There are lots and lots of details to the latter two that you're missing. They are, as I mentioned, a complete overhaul to the endocrine system that affects the development of the child into a hulking brute of a man. The biscopea specifically regulates the hormones to cause this. Without this enhancement, a boy will not grow into the behemoth that is a Space Marine. With that enhancement, a girl - on the miracle that she isn't killed by it - WILL. There's not a lot of room for estrogen and related compounds in there.

 

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines. However, the lore is there. If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

Before we go further - I have a background in gene regulation (education, training and work experience) - I'm not coming at the science from a lack of undstanding. I fully understand how protein binding complexes form partially from what we call hormones (specialized proteins that work as signal triggers and binding activators) work for binding of ribosomes, etc.

 

If you want to argue that you know exactly what these hormones are and exactly how they work and interact with estrogen, prove it. Quote the GW source that specifically states all this. If you can't, you have made no argument, you are inferring from your knowledge of real world science into a completely and totally made up universe where clearly science doesn't work exactly the way ours does by virtue of the idea of eating tissue material grants you another creature's memories and skills - however, the real world research doesn't indicate anything like that can actually happen, as it isn't how we understand memory and muscle usage storage actually works biologically - and there have been attempts at transferring skills genetically and via transplanting.

 

As I said, our real world crap doesn't hold a can of beans here. GW can alter their lore by fiat. They have that authority.

 

And you seem to be inferring that they are a "complete overhaul". If you think that's what it says, then quote the actual text including reference that says exactly that. The current text that talks about it state that the Ossmodula and Biscopea "secretes hormones", "specially engineered hormones encourage" and "primary action is hormonal" respectively (Index Astartes: Rights of Initiation, the Creation of a Space Marine, White Dwarf, August 2017, pg 39) or “• Ossmodula (The Ironheart): This affects bone growth, resulting in a denser skeleton and a fused rib cage that protects internal organs.

• Biscopea (The Forge of Strength): This organ is implanted into the chest cavity where it releases special muscle-building hormones” Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex: Space Marines.” Games Workshop Ltd, 18/07/2017. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright." Note the comment on "special...hormones" or "specially engineered" - those words don't imply that these are simply normally created human hormones, nor do they have any implication on how they interact with said normal human hormones, such as estrogen.

 

I also apologize for accidentally giving you a Like I didn't intend to.

[Stark]

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines.  However, the lore is there.  If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

 

Sorry, you're never going to convince me with real science versus a fantasy sci-fi creation. It's more malleable than warp drive. 

 

Retcons can and do happen in fictional media (some even in reality). Some are good, some are bad. GW is the final arbiter with their own property.

 

As this interesting discussion is just turning into "Yes, it can" and "No, it can't", I'm bowing out. Yea, you win! Give that man a medal!

 

There are other parts of the internet that need saving. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

You can’t make in universe arguments against female marines. Apparently - this is called the Thermian Argument and the guys who run Feminist40k break down why it’s not a valid counter point.

 

 

I think it’s important to reiterate, in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female marines. It’s a narrative choice.

Wait - in our modern day and age, there is no reason for there not to be female Space Marines?  Are there wars in space now, for which we require actual Space Marines?  I know I haven't been following the news that closely, but it's been an eventful few weeks, apparently...

 

Unless you're saying that in the modern day, there is no reason not to have female Space Marines in this particular artistic work.  However, that presupposes that all artistic work is advancing toward a particular state, and it is no longer appropriate to not deviate from that state in a particular way.  I do not agree.

 

 

 

Especially, for this topic, its very important you read exactly what I said -  exactly as I typed it. Don't infer anything you think I might be trying to say. I'm saying everything I'm trying to say. In 40k, female marines are a narrative choice. Its binary, and right now the switch is flipped off. It can be switched on easily, with only the publishing of a single work. Obviously, this has nothing to do with actual marines, and I havent made any references to real life military forces. Thats off topic, and Im consciously being on topic like a laser beam.

 

That's what I did.  You said that there's no reason why we shouldn't have female Space Marines in today's world.  I checked the headlines, but didn't see "interstellar war" ANYWHERE.  The news cycle is WEIRD.  Unless you're not being as precise with your language as you think you are.  Again.

 

If you view established lore in an established property as something that you can easily reverse with no consideration to the consequences...

 

...

 

Do you work at Games Workshop headquarters?

 

 

We clearly haven't interacted on the board before if you think what you just posted is what I'm trying to say.

[Kinstryfe]

 

Again, show me a market that MIGHT be interested in Warhammer 40k, but what's keeping them from being interested is a lack, specifically, of female Space Marines.

I don't think GW's marketing research is going to conclude that the dozens of dollars in extra sales is worth their fans freaking out about the lore problems, the expense of new model molds, etc.

 

 

I don't have to show you a market, nor could I because I'm not a part of GW's team. Sure, we could speculate what keeps them from doing it - if you have insider knowledge that specifically relates to this, that's great for you.

 

This is all speculation, right? How can it not be? None of us can claim, business wise or 40K lore wise, what may happen.

 

It's all playing at the world.

 

Again, show me a market that MIGHT be interested in Warhammer 40k, but what's keeping them from being interested is a lack, specifically, of female Space Marines.

I don't think GW's marketing research is going to conclude that the dozens of dollars in extra sales is worth their fans freaking out about the lore problems, the expense of new model molds, etc.

 

 

I don't have to show you a market, nor could I because I'm not a part of GW's team. Sure, we could speculate what keeps them from doing it - if you have insider knowledge that specifically relates to this, that's great for you.

 

This is all speculation, right? How can it not be? None of us can claim, business wise or 40K lore wise, what may happen.

 

It's all playing at the world.

Not replying specifically, but kind of relevant to this, I think it's really important to ask a few realistic questions along with this topic and to acknowledge some truths about the hobby as a whole that a lot of people don't want to.

 

Could there be female space marines? Absolutely, it's fiction. If they say there are, then there are.

 

Is there any reason there couldn't be female space marines? No, none, unless there's a fictional narrative to make it so.

 

Who would female space marines be marketed towards, and why? This is one of the really big questions, because it addresses the practical, real world reasons behind such a hypothetical change in storyline. I honestly have a hard time reconciling the idea of specifically female space marines being somehow presentable as different to the current status quo without going down the route of sexualization. Once that happens, you're really marketing primarily to a male audience in most cases. So the quandary is really how they could make female marines a meaningful change aimed at a market that's different from the ones they're targeting with witch elves, dark eldar wyches, sisters of since, etc.

 

Are models really what's keeping a more diverse group out of the hobby? This is the big one, the cornerstone, the one that I'm going to lay out here for silent reflection and touch on minimally to avoid fanning the flames. It's my experience that I have never, ever heard of a female I knew giving up or not starting the hobby because there weren't enough female miniatures to collect. Believe it or not, they thought power armor looked cool too, or elder, it Tau, or whatever, same as anyone. But, the places to play and people to play with are not always, I'll be polite and say "convenient", for women. Not everywhere, but in enough places I've been and heard of that I really, really have a hard time thinking that the reason GW is having trouble marketing to women is because there are no women Space Marines.

 

Honestly, any examination of just the question "should there be female Space Marines?" isn't really enough to give a realistic answer to the question. Old fluff, the answer is no. New fluff, sure why not. Want to model them? Neat. We just can't really talk about any of the higher reasons for or against without delving into the hobby culture in general, which will open up many more, fairly ugly, cans of worms.

[Callan]

 

There are lots and lots of details to the latter two that you're missing.  They are, as I mentioned, a complete overhaul to the endocrine system that affects the development of the child into a hulking brute of a man.  The biscopea specifically regulates the hormones to cause this.  Without this enhancement, a boy will not grow into the behemoth that is a Space Marine.  With that enhancement, a girl - on the miracle that she isn't killed by it - WILL.  There's not a lot of room for estrogen and related compounds in there.

 

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines.  However, the lore is there.  If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

Before we go further - I have a background in gene regulation - I'm not coming at the science from a lack of undstanding. I fully understand how proteins binding complexes that we call hormones work for binding of ribosomes, etc.

 

If you want to argue that you know exactly what these hormones are and exactly how they work and interact with estrogen, prove it. Quote the GW source that specifically states all this. If you can't, you have made no argument, you are inferring from your knowledge of real world science into a completely and totally made up universe where clearly science doesn't work exactly the way ours does by virtue of the idea of eating material grants you memories and skills - however, the real world research doesn't indicate anything like that can actually happen, as it isn't how we understand memory and muscle usage storage actually works biologically - and there have been attempts at transferring skills genetically and via transplanting.

 

As I said, our real world crap doesn't hold a can of beans here. GW can alter their lore by fiat. They have that authority.

 

Hey, neat.  An actual scientist in the relevant field.  Perfect!  Now, tell me how this would work, if you would.

 

You install in the young patient two new glands that overhaul the endocrine system.  They tightly control the body's hormones, and flood the system with HGH, androgens, and a host of other, less-defined things, in addition to gene therapy and nanobots that are designed to sculpt the body on multiple levels to better resemble a progenitor.  A male progenitor.  The documentation on this process says that it will kill any female subject, and the designed end result is a man who is 300-500kg of near-solid bone and muscle.  What level would you expect female sex hormones to be at through this process, considering that the regulatory organs do not want their meddling?  What expect would you expect that to have?

 

To reply to you and everyone else: yes, GW has the authority to throw out their extensive lore and replace it with something else.  Have you noticed something about the fan reaction to this, even for something as comparatively-minor as Primaris Marines?

[Bryan Blaire]

Hey, neat. An actual scientist in the relevant field. Perfect! Now, tell me how this would work, if you would.

 

You install in the young patient two new glands that overhaul the endocrine system. They tightly control the body's hormones, and flood the system with HGH, androgens, and a host of other, less-defined things, in addition to gene therapy and nanobots that are designed to sculpt the body on multiple levels to better resemble a progenitor. A male progenitor. The documentation on this process says that it will kill any female subject, and the designed end result is a man who is 300-500kg of near-solid bone and muscle. What level would you expect female sex hormones to be at through this process, considering that the regulatory organs do not want their meddling? What expect would you expect that to have?

 

To reply to you and everyone else: yes, GW has the authority to throw out their extensive lore and replace it with something else. Have you noticed something about the fan reaction to this, even for something as comparatively-minor as Primaris Marines?

I feel that maybe you aren't reading the response...

 

You keep providing an assessment that what these glands are doing are using standard human hormones. I have already asked you to "Prove It" by quoting the relevant text that says that with text citation. Continuing to ask questions based on spurious assumptions that these processes are using standard hormones when I have already shown that the GW text quoted specifies that at least for the Biscopea, the organ specifically does not use standard hormones, but "specially engineered" ones without defining exactly what those hormones are, how they work, or how they interact with any standard hormones in any human body, implies that you either don't think this is a serious discussion or are trying to drive the discussion without genuine interest and just want to be "right".

 

And where are you getting "nanobots" from? Please provide a quote with citation from a GW published text for that as well (don't get me wrong, it sounds awesome and I'm used to them in other fiction, but I haven't seen them brought up in the Marine organ implantation process before and I've been playing since 1994 - granted, it could be my aging mind, but I don't recall anything specifying that).

 

Do everyone understand that in the human male body, hormones typically called "estrogen", such as estradiol (in reality there are actually many hormones in the "estrogen" group, it's not a single hormone), actually are present and can be critical to male health? Here's a study found on PubMed about it in elderly men: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12198740

Male "estrogen" levels have an impact on brain function, bone maturation and strength, Regulation of bone resorption, lipid metabolism, skin metabolism, and sexual interest. Look right there! Those nasty "female" estrogens are playing a role in bone maturation and strength, one of the very things that the Ossmodula is supposed to help.

 

I'm not responding with whether I think any of this is a good idea (I am personally very unlikely to ever want or use the models myself), I'm merely showing that trying to argue against something based on real-world science is already a flawed position anyway. It is also requiring a rather large "off topic" discussion about real world genetics and human gene and body regulation.

[kombatwombat]

excess testosterone the way you are describing would result in a similarly flawed male.

 

The space marines don't have baldness and insane aggression levels as soon as they transform or all speak like gravelly christian bales due to voice deepening which are all common testosterone abuse side effects.

Specifically on this, I don’t agree.

 

Out of their armour, Astartes don’t look like Greek statues; they look like the doped-up brute at the gym whose veins appear to be trying to rip themselves off his biceps. They don’t actually look like heroes, they look like - as you put it - roided-up freaks.

 

Baldness is common amongst Astartes - most plastic unhelmeted heads are bald, as are a lot of metal/resin characters. Beards used to be the sole preserve of the sons of Russ and Dorn due to quirks of their gene-seed (they have deviated from that bit of lore more recently with Draigo, Voldus and Telion, though honestly that could just be due to the sculptors’/artists’ ignorance).

 

Part of what makes an Astartes scary is their hyper-aggression. Normal humans have to work their way up from calm and centred to raving, chomping at the bit aggression over a short time. Astartes can go from 0-100 instantly; one second they can be standing on parade duty and the next they can be screaming and ripping people’s heads off.

 

Not sure about the voice thing, but they do all seem to have authoritative voices at least.

 

 

No, I think ‘roided-up freaks’ is actually a very good descriptor for Space Marines. They just also happen to have had years of psycho-indoctrination to learn to control themselves.

[Skaorn]

 

 

There are lots and lots of details to the latter two that you're missing.  They are, as I mentioned, a complete overhaul to the endocrine system that affects the development of the child into a hulking brute of a man.  The biscopea specifically regulates the hormones to cause this.  Without this enhancement, a boy will not grow into the behemoth that is a Space Marine.  With that enhancement, a girl - on the miracle that she isn't killed by it - WILL.  There's not a lot of room for estrogen and related compounds in there.

 

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines.  However, the lore is there.  If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

 

Before we go further - I have a background in gene regulation - I'm not coming at the science from a lack of undstanding. I fully understand how proteins binding complexes that we call hormones work for binding of ribosomes, etc.

If you want to argue that you know exactly what these hormones are and exactly how they work and interact with estrogen, prove it. Quote the GW source that specifically states all this. If you can't, you have made no argument, you are inferring from your knowledge of real world science into a completely and totally made up universe where clearly science doesn't work exactly the way ours does by virtue of the idea of eating material grants you memories and skills - however, the real world research doesn't indicate anything like that can actually happen, as it isn't how we understand memory and muscle usage storage actually works biologically - and there have been attempts at transferring skills genetically and via transplanting.

As I said, our real world crap doesn't hold a can of beans here. GW can alter their lore by fiat. They have that authority.

Hey, neat.  An actual scientist in the relevant field.  Perfect!  Now, tell me how this would work, if you would.

 

You install in the young patient two new glands that overhaul the endocrine system.  They tightly control the body's hormones, and flood the system with HGH, androgens, and a host of other, less-defined things, in addition to gene therapy and nanobots that are designed to sculpt the body on multiple levels to better resemble a progenitor.  A male progenitor.  The documentation on this process says that it will kill any female subject, and the designed end result is a man who is 300-500kg of near-solid bone and muscle.  What level would you expect female sex hormones to be at through this process, considering that the regulatory organs do not want their meddling?  What expect would you expect that to have?

 

To reply to you and everyone else: yes, GW has the authority to throw out their extensive lore and replace it with something else.  Have you noticed something about the fan reaction to this, even for something as comparatively-minor as Primaris Marines?

Your asking him to use his actual scientific knowledge to explain how a science fantasy genetic experiment goes...

 

You realize he could make anything up and it would probably sound totally legit. SM happen through storytelling magic that was shown a biology book for a few seconds. The only reason there are no female SM is because someone at GW pulled up the clubhouse ladder and posted a "no girls allowed" sign. Science had nothing to do with it.

[Laughingman]

There probably were examples of "Gene forged" (genetically manipulated or surgically enhanced)  techno barbarian (and non terrain equivalents) who wore power armor and happened to be female  in the age fo strife and before.  Easy enough to represent using the militia and cults list in 30K... I assume the Magos biologis put a stop to existing "unsanctioned" gene manipulation in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy as part of the Adeptus Mechanicus consolidation of power...

[TiguriusX]

 

excess testosterone the way you are describing would result in a similarly flawed male.

 

The space marines don't have baldness and insane aggression levels as soon as they transform or all speak like gravelly christian bales due to voice deepening which are all common testosterone abuse side effects.

Specifically on this, I don’t agree.

 

Out of their armour, Astartes don’t look like Greek statues; they look like the doped-up brute at the gym whose veins appear to be trying to rip themselves off his biceps. They don’t actually look like heroes, they look like - as you put it - roided-up freaks.

 

Baldness is common amongst Astartes - most plastic unhelmeted heads are bald, as are a lot of metal/resin characters. Beards used to be the sole preserve of the sons of Russ and Dorn due to quirks of their gene-seed (they have deviated from that bit of lore more recently with Draigo, Voldus and Telion, though honestly that could just be due to the sculptors’/artists’ ignorance).

 

Part of what makes an Astartes scary is their hyper-aggression. Normal humans have to work their way up from calm and centred to raving, chomping at the bit aggression over a short time. Astartes can go from 0-100 instantly; one second they can be standing on parade duty and the next they can be screaming and ripping people’s heads off.

 

Not sure about the voice thing, but they do all seem to have authoritative voices at least.

 

 

No, I think ‘roided-up freaks’ is actually a very good descriptor for Space Marines. They just also happen to have had years of psycho-indoctrination to learn to control themselves.

 

 

 

My experience with space marines doesn't match your experience.

 

I'm a space wolf.  I have read numerous space wolf novels etc.  Hair loss and balding are not a common issue.

 

Space wolf rage isn't hormonal (unless you want to argue the canis helix that can lead to wulfen state is due to "testosterone"). 

 

Their combat behaviors are psycho-indoctrination based.  They get a Matrix download of knowledge and responses in the Ragnar series but have no practical experience with it.  There is an example of a recruit knowing how to prime and arm a grenade but blowing himself up during training because there was no real experience with the consequences prior to that.

 

We can agree to disagree on this point if you like

[Bryan Blaire]

Your asking him to use his actual scientific knowledge to explain how a science fantasy genetic experiment goes...

 

You realize he could make anything up and it would probably sound totally legit. SM happen through storytelling magic that was shown a biology book for a few seconds. The only reason there are no female SM is because someone at GW pulled up the clubhouse ladder and posted a "no girls allowed" sign. Science had nothing to do with it.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I wouldn't, but that's awesome.

 

If a Wizard did it, do we get to call the Emperor 'Hairy Ceramicware-Maker"?

 

Seriously, I don't want to take this off topic further with actual science talk, I think we should all agree that while the ideas are couched in biology/science, they don't work according to all the principals and current understanding (I fully believe that when the idea was created, it was done with some slightly deeper understanding of the science than simply mainstream, but we've come a long, long way in the almost 30 years since the idea was likely conjured up in someone's brain).

[Callan]

 

 

 

There are lots and lots of details to the latter two that you're missing.  They are, as I mentioned, a complete overhaul to the endocrine system that affects the development of the child into a hulking brute of a man.  The biscopea specifically regulates the hormones to cause this.  Without this enhancement, a boy will not grow into the behemoth that is a Space Marine.  With that enhancement, a girl - on the miracle that she isn't killed by it - WILL.  There's not a lot of room for estrogen and related compounds in there.

 

If GW had not written the lore that way in the first place, then sure, maybe female Space Marines.  However, the lore is there.  If they want to THROW OUT that lore... they're going to be making more people angry than they're going to be enticing to buy minis.

Before we go further - I have a background in gene regulation - I'm not coming at the science from a lack of undstanding. I fully understand how proteins binding complexes that we call hormones work for binding of ribosomes, etc.

If you want to argue that you know exactly what these hormones are and exactly how they work and interact with estrogen, prove it. Quote the GW source that specifically states all this. If you can't, you have made no argument, you are inferring from your knowledge of real world science into a completely and totally made up universe where clearly science doesn't work exactly the way ours does by virtue of the idea of eating material grants you memories and skills - however, the real world research doesn't indicate anything like that can actually happen, as it isn't how we understand memory and muscle usage storage actually works biologically - and there have been attempts at transferring skills genetically and via transplanting.

As I said, our real world crap doesn't hold a can of beans here. GW can alter their lore by fiat. They have that authority.

Hey, neat.  An actual scientist in the relevant field.  Perfect!  Now, tell me how this would work, if you would.

 

You install in the young patient two new glands that overhaul the endocrine system.  They tightly control the body's hormones, and flood the system with HGH, androgens, and a host of other, less-defined things, in addition to gene therapy and nanobots that are designed to sculpt the body on multiple levels to better resemble a progenitor.  A male progenitor.  The documentation on this process says that it will kill any female subject, and the designed end result is a man who is 300-500kg of near-solid bone and muscle.  What level would you expect female sex hormones to be at through this process, considering that the regulatory organs do not want their meddling?  What expect would you expect that to have?

 

To reply to you and everyone else: yes, GW has the authority to throw out their extensive lore and replace it with something else.  Have you noticed something about the fan reaction to this, even for something as comparatively-minor as Primaris Marines?

Your asking him to use his actual scientific knowledge to explain how a science fantasy genetic experiment goes...

You realize he could make anything up and it would probably sound totally legit. SM happen through storytelling magic that was shown a biology book for a few seconds. The only reason there are no female SM is because someone at GW pulled up the clubhouse ladder and posted a "no girls allowed" sign. Science had nothing to do with it.

Except I already know the answer. There is enough lore surrounding the creation of a Space Marine to know how it works. The implants control the hormones to create the desired result. The desired result is a 300-500kg man who is grotesquely overmuscled. Therefore, estrogen levels would be what is necessary for this transformation to take place. The introduction of an endocrine CONTROLLER organ was the key bit in the whole thing.

 

And yes, Bryan, I know estrogen is necessary in certain amounts. Ladies have testosterone, too. However, if you introduce new organs to supply and control a freakish blend of hormones (and other things) designed to turn a child into a giant, hyper-muscled freak, those are probably not going to let female sex hormones in the quantities required to make a girl into a woman just do their thing unmolested. Even if they do not kill her.

[Bryan Blaire]

The introduction of an endocrine CONTROLLER organ was the key bit to the whole thing.

...

However, if you introduce new organs to supply and control a freakish blend of hormones (and other things) designed to turn a child into a giant, hyper-muscled freak, those are probably not going to let female sex hormones in the quantities required to make a girl into a woman just do their thing unmolested. Even if they do not kill her.

What endocrine controller organ? None of the current lore bits on the Space Marine organs mentions controlling all hormone functions except the Magnificat, which is only implanted in the Primaris Marines. The Ossmodula specifically controls the bone hormones, and the Biscopea deals with "specifically engineered"/"special" muscle building hormones. Neither of those are stated to take complete control of the endocrine system as currently written in the Index Astartes article referenced earlier or the current Space Marine Codex. You may be basing this argument portion on out of date lore/lore that has already been updated rendering previous versions potentially incorrect.

 

As far as I can tell, we've never been told what the actual hormone levels of anything are, or what they interact with, or what they do or regulate beyond the specific functions outlined by GW. Therefore we can make no concrete inferences about what happens to anyone when implanted beyond what Word of God from the designers has told us.

 

Speculative inferences are a shaky platform from which to build a real-world scientifically based argument.

 

———————

Right now, the answer from GW appears to be "No female Space Marines". If they changed that tomorrow and provided some explanation, no matter how inane or trite it seemed to be, that would be the explanation. If they told us all that implanting female aspirants with the standard organs plus something new, and all of the sudden they become supermodel Space Marines, then it would exist (I would think it is stupid, but it would exist).

 

There's no real scientific argument to be had on whether female Space Marines could exist or not, because there isn't any real science involved. We have no real hypotheses, we have no real experiments, we have no real data or the capability for real analysis. Therefore we can draw no real conclusions based on science. We have "Word of God" from the designers. That's what the argument centers around.

[Skaorn]

The only real argument I can agree with against female marines is that the setting states SM can only be male. Doing away with it would probably require a retcon which would upset people. The question is how much though? There have been bigger retcons from GW like the Necrons 3rd ed lore or that my former lizardmen army are now angels that look like lizardmen. To me the change would not be as catastrophic as some believe as it wouldn't have any effect on the greater narrative. A sprue of heads for female marines isn't going to cause people to worry that their SM are getting replaced like the Primaris did.

 

I don't agree that SoB cover female marines as they are a very different from SM and CSM in play and much larger factions As for it being some big inclusion agenda, so what? The hobby is about making YOUR army the way you want and we all put ourselves into our armies. If someone wants their big SM hero to be a girl, why not. If a girl walked into a game store wanted to start an SM army and make herself as a space knight, would you say no and tell her to go with SoB? Years working at Coca-Cola has taught me that diversity pays off.

 

Everything else seems to forget that 40k is a game with space wizards.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

I think it's easier to create female Skitarii than to create female Astartes. The former is far more inclusive from a genetic POV, i.e., there's less concern a Skitarius' body will reject the augmetic implants that make him/her who he/she is.

[Schlitzaf]

As an aside pardon me if this been mentioned, but isn’t the whole reason in universe we don’t have FemMarines is the Emperor didn’t want to risk losing sisters of silence candidates to the very dangerous process of becoming Space Marines?

[DuskRaider]

Yeah, no. Just no. In my opinion, Sisters of Battle are close already. If you want to make them more genetically altered, go for it. They already have Power Armour and wield most of the weaponry Astartes do, just with their own twist. Inclusion for the sake of inclusion of pandering to a fringe is foolish. Adding female Guard models is fine, there's nothing in the lore that says IG are male only, and many planets will grab literally anyone able enough to point a flashlight in the direction of the enemy to die in glorious sacrifice. For those interested in representing female IG, take a look at Victoria Miniatures... beautiful minis and much more realistically modeled than many others out there. 

 

But yeah... no female Astartes. Modify SoS or SoB, they're there already.

[Ipsen]

My models are already all women in space marine armour. Yes even that one that looks a lot like Helbrecht. Helga has been the High Marshal of the Black Templars for as long as i can remember.

 

None of the best fluff is cannon.

 

Are we really arguing over whether the space marines can come with boob plates or not?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Space Marines, like the Special Forces of any competent military, are NOT INCLUSIVE. They have extremely high standards for their recruits- including compatibility with gene-seed and other implants- because their missions are extremely demanding. As the line "And they shall know no fear," indicates, Space Marines are deliberately dehumanized to meet the demands of their mission.

 

"Inclusiveness" should not be a reason to include female Space Marines. If the Special Forces were actually inclusive, they would deliberately recruit physically and mentally disabled individuals- "fatties," "cripples," and [insert derogatory comment of choice]- but they don't, because those individuals couldn't perform the duties demanded of military service members.

 

Note: "Inclusiveness" should not be confused with "diversity." The Special Forces are diverse, because few individuals have the qualities necessary to competently achieve the missions demanded of a Special Forces operator, so these organizations will not reject recruits for reasons as petty as race or religion, unless the recruit is foolish enough to try starting a race war or a crusade/jihad against the very nation the Special Forces serve.

[Scribe]

 

 

Why should there be female space marines?

 

I think a re-done Sisters line with models the quality of Celestine will scratch that itch.

Heck, we need some female Astra Militarum models too.

For once I'm going to agree with Ishagu.

 

In my opinion, the Sisters of Battle are both far more unique and far, far more interesting to read about than the Space Marines. It's not even that they're women (although that's part of the aesthetic's uniqueness), but that they fill such a niche as religiously devout crusaders, well-equipped and trained, but without the "they were super epic and metal and :cusspwned everybody because they're super human" that so often pollutes 40k more often than not.

 

Female Space Marines would give GW more of an excuse to ignore the Sisters of Battle and that would be a huge shame.

This indeed.

 

It is simply not needed. If they had always been a thing, whatever. However they are not.

 

Stormcast needed to be changed because GW :cussed up on release, and had to add females in.

 

Which makes sense, they are reshaped souls.

 

Female marines are not canon, never have been canon, and some of us care(d) about that before people started complaining needlessly about how their Noblebright Emperor is gone, and their humanity loving marines are actually not so great.

 

As Rohr mentioned though, with all the 'improvements' to the once great lore, it's just a matter of time.

[Laughingman]

Correct me if I wrong but didn't Fabius bile in primogenitor create basically  "half adeptus astartes"  via his "gland hound" project, which included females and males (they were actually capable of reproduction as well). The early ones used astartes gene seed as well...